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HELP PLEASE - VPI Classic Signature 3D Arm or Dr. Feickert Woodpecker Jelco Arm

Need some help guys from the well informed analog folks.

VPI Classic Signature w/3D arm - New Open Box  - Soundsmith Carman MKII Cart is brand new

or

Dr. Feickert Woodpecker Jelco arm static demo - Dynavector 20x2 Cart is brand new

Both tables are either static demo’s or open box and mint and from reputable dealers the carts are brand new and will be mounted for me. 

Both are around $4,400 price all in. 

I’m open to other options but landed on these two for best for the price I thought and these are the carts for this price target that each dealer can offer. Trying to not make things too crazy option wise but I always get great info from you guys so please share any and all thoughts. What one would you get? Either? 

Here in my situation:


I just finished up a full system re-fit with some tweaking here and there still to do but I am extremely happy with the sound I’m getting today from my new to me system.

Best I’ve personally ever had. I’m pretty psyched - so psyched I want to add a turntable and a decent / competent but reasonable priced cart to startout and then if needed I can upgrade later.

Will these tables have a legit chance to be at least as good as my Digital do you think?

Could they sound better or no chance? Everyone says vinyl is better when using decent enough equipment so I’ll list the rest of my rig below to get your opinions.

Would love some feedback / ideas / thought recommendations and help. I’m a digital guy and want to give vinyl and honest to goodness try.

For my phonostage I just purchased the dual mono Phono board modules for my
Mark Levinson No.326s linestage so it’s now a full function Preamp with built in phonostage as well which was done at a reasonable cost which is great! 

Here is some other info that may be relevant. Thanks so much for the help!

** Back Ground info**

** Room is ** 
14 x 24 w/Cathedral Ceilings - 16 Foot a peak

** Music likes **
Assorted Music but no metal or loud hard rock anymore really - not much Large Scale classical either but everything else. I listen just loud enough to sound its best but not a loud listener. I enjoy normal levels. 

** Likes / Priorities **
Transparency - Delicacy - Linear - High resolution - microscope but not sterile not etched or lifeless -some natural warmth and life to the music is key  but love that see through transparency and love precise soundstage - remove as many layers without being clinical - tight bass - hate flab - but don’t need worlds greatest slam but love speed and accurate bass while being musical.

** Perspective **
I’m only a couple months into this new system and I was struggling to get the right Preamp and tried a half dozen or so searching for the right balance and the one that could bring my new system together like only the perfect matching preamp can do. Each system is different so really it must be heard to know it’s what you want. I believe in the Preamp and knew If I could find the right match it would change everything. Well that was the hope.

To make a long story longer the Mark Levinson No.326s preamp did this and more. I was hedging my expectations based on the disappointments of the others I tried and failed but the No. 326s nailed it and honestly it an incredible Preamp and then some. I was so happy I decided to upgrade and add the built in phonostage option and here we are :) 

System:
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5160

- Magico S5 Loudspeakers 
- Pass Labs X350.5 Amplifier
- Mark Levinson No.326s Preamp/phonostage
- Bricasti M1 Special Edition DAC
- PS Audio P10 Power Plant 
- Kubala-Sosna Emotion SC’s
- Nordost/Cardas IC’s 
- Assorted PC's Verastarr/Cardas

- Digital PC based front end that I have been tweaking and evolving:
- Sonore microRendu 1.4
- Full Suite of UpTone Audio Gear
(2) x LPS-1 Ultra Capacitor PS
JS-2 Linear Power Supply
(2) Regens - ISO/Amber
- (8) Canare / Oyide DC cables 
- (2) Breeze Audio 12v LPS
- Tellurium Q Black Diamond Reference USB cable
- Curious Regen Link USB Cable.

This Digital Front End beat out: Lumin, Antipodes, Naim and Auralic servers. It needs everything to work so well but man does it work great. My hope is that a turntable can complete and wish some luck I end up liking it better. That’s why I’m asking for help. I want to put my best vinyl foot forward for the budget it listed as I already own the Phonostage so my budget is for table, arm and cart. 

Really appreciate any help you can provide! I know this is kind of long but wanted you guys to know where I’m coming from! If you would like more info please let me know - all comments and feedback are most welcome and deeply appreciated :)








fsmithjack

Showing 3 responses by rauliruegas

rauliruegas
13,129 posts
 
Dear @fsmithjack : Problem is not on the Pass amp, problem is how the Rel has to be connected.

What you need is to find out this remarkable active crossover:

https://www.passlabs.com/preamplifier/xvr-1 


this crossover option is very good too: 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/9ACCUPHASE-F-25-Electronic-Frequency-Dividing-Network-active-crossover-JBL-...   

With those options the preamp signal goes to the electronic crossover and then to the Pass amp and from here to the Magico. The subs will takes the signal from the electronic crossover outputs too.

For subwoofers there are several manufacture brands to choice. For the stereo experience I prefer subs with sealed design as Velodyne that is out of production but you always can buy second hand HGS-15 that are exceptional for true high end stereo music or DD-15.
In this regards no other home audio sub can match it due that the THD of those Velodyne's is only 0.5% ! ! that's truly wonderful and this spec maybe is the more important one in a sub.
The " touted " JL audio ones are over 5%-6% on THD. There is no comparation vs Velodyne. With subs first than all we need very low distortion levels but Velodyne is not only about low low distortion levels but has very good  quality level performance that can't be out performed by any other I experienced. @dgarretson  can gives you more info about.

Of course that with the Velodyne's you always can use a passive dedicated frequency ( 80 hz. ) high-filter and from here to the Pass amp and the subs will takes the signal from the preamp´output directly.

I insist that you need to test your system in this way. I know you are not " prepared " for what you will listening when you do it !


Regards and enjoyb the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.




rauliruegas
13,129 posts
 
Dear @fsmithjack :  Even the S5II needs a pair of self powered subwoofers connected in a true stereo fashion.. As a fact all passive loudspeakers needs those subwoofers, it's a " sin equa non " condition in any pasive audio system. It does not matters if name is Magico or Wilson or whatever and even it does not matters what the people of Magico could think about.

You are more or less satisfied with your digital alternative, well you can't even imagine the whole improvement you will have with the subs connected in the rigth way.  I'm not talking here to add " bum bum bum " to the listening experience it's more deeper and " new " experience where the primary target is not what subwoofers does but what those Magico will does ! !

Not only your Pass amplifier can't handle in precise way those Magico speakers in the bass range as a fact no other amp can do it because the amps were not designed to fulfill the very specific needs of the Magico speakers. Amps are " universal " when in powered subs the amps were designed in specific for the woofers needs and this makes a huge differences in the quality bass range performance but more important what makes in the Magico " new " frequency range that will goes from the upper bass range to  50 khz.

Here you can read something about:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058  

After  fine tunning your room/system with the powered subwoofers your not only your digital will shines but your analog rig will does too ! ! 


Btw, @dgarretson you know the high respect I have for you and I'm not in " total " disagreement with you but think on this: for many years our brain/body was and is accustomed to the analog experiences and if we suddenly swicht to digital our brain/body answer will be exactly like you said.
What happens if for 4-6 months in a row you listen only to the digital alternative and don't was exposed to the analog one?, well that when you listening again to analog you will be totally aware and in a very precise way will detect not only those very high LP distortions but that at the end will not so easy to live with when you know for sure that with digital you stay truer to the recording but we have to make that time test.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
rauliruegas
13,129 posts
 
Dear @fsmithjack : """ because I just know so little and would like a turntable that would sound better than my digital and has that great sound everyone speaks of. """

Years ago was more easy to define which analog rig beats the digital alternative but today the top digital alternative is unbeatable not only by the analog/LP but even by the R2R one.

Digital alternative growing up to today very high status and does not stops there, almost every day digital is improving where analog/LP just " stays " as 10 years o more status: no true/real improvements and with almost no hope to improves.

I’m a music lover and analog lover too but I can’t close the sun with one finger to tell that analog beats digital alternative when in true reality is the other way around: like it or not to we analog lovers.

I speak in that way because my main target is to be/stay nearer/truer to the recording and the endless imperfection characteristics in the recording and playback of the analog/LP alternative preclude to be nearer to te recording ( on what the microphones pick up. ) as the digital one. This is a fact, no discussion about: it’s useless and in this same forum we analized more than one time that true.

Why audiophiles are in love with analog/LP? because almost all of us are accustomed to the analog/LP high distortions levels. We are not accustomed to the real true that’s what digital shows to us.

In the next link you can read this by the OP of the thread ( a truly " modest " system vs yours but.....says a lot. ):

"""  But recently I got a PS Audio Directstream Jr Dac and it’s blowing my mind - for the first time in my life I am listening to way more digital than analog. """

the link: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/vac-sigma-160i-se-or-arc-ls26-primaluna-dialogue-premium

If I was you what I make is to invest in continue fine tunning the room/system including that digital alternative at software/hardware levels. These money and consuming time will gives you more enjoyment/rewards than the best analog/LP experience in that system.

Now, looking your very nice audio system I see that you have two subwoofers that I don’t know how are connected .
Your speakers cross over to the mid range at around 300 hz that’s to high frequency that develops intermodulation distortion level that are higher than what is desired ( even with the Magico " pedigree ". )

So, the subwoofers for stereo listening is a must to have and not as bass reinforcement but to lower in significative levels that intermodulation distortion and harmonic distortion level too .
To achieve that those two subwoofers must have be connected in true stereo fashion crossing at around 80hz-85hz to the Magico’s. This means that the Magico will handle the frequency range from 80hz-85hz to 50khz that is the S5 hig limit frequency and the subs will play from 80hz-85hz and down all the bass range.
Doing this will gives you non-imaginable rewards in the whole quality level performance of your Stereo system. Till you do it you can’t know what I’m talking about. You can be sure that your system will shines as never before.

As always the best judge is you because the " ball " is in your court side.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.


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