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Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman

Showing 8 responses by tyray

tyray
711 posts
 
Why don’t you guys (and gals) get together and have a respectful subwoofer shootout? I’m sure you all can find the time during these pandemic times? And I’m sure someone has a audio studio for all of you to use? You can then test each others hypotheses, scientific principles, use the audio test equipment to set up your equipment and record everything for posterity and science.

Come on? Are you kidding me? You’d have the entire AUDIO GLOBE wanting to see this happen similar to a heavyweight prize fight! You could settle this once and for all in a friendly, fun way like you ALL used to do when we were just kids.

Who ever loses buys the beer (or wine) and the experience itself will be videoed. Also you just might make a friend or two in the process. I would rent that video, or well at least check it out on youtube.

And even if you don’t videotape the event at least have the shootout! Know we'll see who'll man up.
tyray
711 posts
 

Uh -Oh! Looks like we got 2 contestants already! Duke and veerossi.
And veerossi wants bring out the big guns - The DEBRA’s! Now I know you all know about the SWARM, but let me introduce you to the DEBRA’s.

https://jamesromeyn.com/audiokinesis-speaker-models/debra/

What’s that I hear - crickets?
tyray
711 posts
 
Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world
@northman,

My intention is not to hijack nor misrepresent your stated purpose for this thread but to do exactly as you ask -  for this particular thread. 

Thank you, for asking the question.
tyray
711 posts
 
Your comment made me think of two reasons I have not tried a DBA yet, and something Duke (or somebody) could work on to help those of us who already own and use two great sounding subs:

@mitch2,
One of the things I’ve admired about Duke is he has always given advice and instruction on how to place any sub no matter if it’s only 1 or 2 of any sub brand you have and even trying to understand what type of tuning functions you may have on the back of you sub and how to use them.

If you do a Agon search you will be surprised at how many threads he has been a part off on what you ask.

There's also some links to some 'white' papers that break down the genesis of the distributed array technique that also surprisingly are in layman like terms  for easier understanding - check this out. https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/
tyray
711 posts
 
One SW12 provides satisfying high quality mono bass. Two SW12's produce more realistic stereo bass, higher levels, and better smoothness. Three SW12's add front / rear information and truly envelope the listener in bass.

@mitch2,
Your above quote from Aerial’s Michael Kelly is very similar to a multiple sub white paper excerpt here:

Subwoofer setup after Earl Geddes (GedLee LLC)

The multisub setup described on this page has two big advantages over other methods: only three subs are needed and you don't need to put the subwoofers at specified locations. Nonetheless there are some basic rules that have proven to yield best results:

Put one sub in a corner close to the mains. The second sub is a lot more flexible as to its location, but it should not be in a corner. Side wall or back wall, near the midpoint is a good idea. Put the third sub wherever you can that is not too close to the other two. It's a good idea to get one of them off of the floor.

Subwoofer requirements

Because we are using 3 subwoofers, they do not need to be as powerful as a single subwoofer. Any decent active subwoofer (ported or closed design) with a 10" or bigger driver will do. It should have controls for

  • level (continuously variable)
  • low pass frequency (continuously variable)
  • phase (switchable or continuously variable)
  • parametric equalizer (optional)
tyray
711 posts
 
What I don’t understand is why do people on this site always verbally attack Duke for just being a businessman, entrepreneur and fellow Agon poster?

You don’t have to try, buy or use the swarm, but all the keyboard internet negativity is not warranted and shows some lack of civility.

What ever happened to just having discussions amongst adults who enjoy this hobby? You don’t have to have the swarm or even like the swarm, but to attack Duke for trying to make a living everytime this subject comes up? Is nothing more but and act of hiding behind your moniker cowardice.

I know some posters here can be abrasive, but sometimes it just takes the bigger man to be just that. The bigger man. Don’t attack Duke on account of or for the sake of others.

I was really hoping that there maybe some sort of down to earth shootout? Or are you guys just gonna flap your gums at Duke? Some of you guys take the fun out of every subwoofer thread every time the words swarm or subwoofer is brought up.

I like to bring something positive to this thread and congratulate Duke on his hard work to be an engineer, salesman, tech, phone person and everything else it takes to run a business. 

And everytime the swarm is brought up here in Agon I do see new customers that have bought your swarm and report their experiences back to us here on Agon.


tyray
711 posts
 
@mitch2,

It took me a very long time to wrap my head around having more than 2 subs. I was from the school that says you always put your subs in the corners about 6 inches or less from the walls in symmetrical positions. And you only need 2.

When I first read the above excerpts I took the sub farthest away from the mains and put it in the middle of the opposing wall. I then took the sub that was closest to the mains and turned it 45 degrees. Well to my surprise they did sound better.

Then reading more in agon Duke did suggest to the things he told you to do with your subs, then I can't remember if it was Duke on some other reading but 'if you can raise one up towards the ceiling'. What!

So after about 30 seconds of trying figure out how to get a 60lb sub up to the ceiling I started to think out of box as it were as to the typical placements of subs in only the corner that we are so used to doing.

I had an old SVS sub in the closet to make a total of 3 subs and put it on the back in the middle of the wall. I borrowed a smaller smaller sub to put on the highest shelf in the back of the room. It made a difference.

Was it a swarm? No but it did open up my thinking just a little more of having 4 subs placed in my listening/tv room. Now all this didn't just happen overnight as I had to get F connectors and cable and hook everything up.

When it was suggested I put a sub up towards the ceiling, I didn't think this s**t would work and almost didn't try it. I'm glad I did.

And to this day I don't own the swarm for the same reasons you don't own the swarm. I already had money invested in subs. But the science does work.
tyray
711 posts
 
Now in the new house, with a bigger listening room (14 x 17) I have 2 subs on the floor but still have 2 up high facing the ceiling.

@hleeid,

Sounds so cool!
I think you do have the swarm right? Where are your subs located in the new room?


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