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Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman

Showing 2 responses by pryso

pryso
1,984 posts
 
I hope this is not too far off topic but a quote here by bdp raised a question regarding dipole bass.  Anyone who can offer a knowledgable answer will be appreciated.

"The rear wave coming back to the woofer after it bounces off the wall behind it needs to be timed (1 ft. = approximately 1 ms.) so that the front and rear waves are in phase by the time they reach the listening location."

I've been aware of this time and distance relationship since reading about the Bell Labs experiments identifying the need to separate direct sound waves from reflected waves by at least 10 ms for clarity.  Thus a dipole speaker should be placed at least 5' our from the front wall (5+5=10 ms) for greatest clarity.

So how can it be calculated to assure rear waves are in phase for reinforcement?  I may be auditioning open baffle speakers, which includes the woofers, so how can I determine potential placement to simplify trial and error?

Concerning the swarm, I have heard a demo with that and was impressed.  But running wires and placement of four sub boxes will not be an option for me.
pryso
1,984 posts
 
While I hesitate to add to this "hornet's nest" of a discussion, I will say this.  I've been an audio hobbyist since the mid-60s when I put together my first stereo system building Dynakits.  That included reading Audio, Stereo Review, and High Fidelity, popular print magazines of the day.  I don't recall seeing the term "swarm" relating to anything in audio until I read Duke's site decades later.  And then, while applying the term, he credited the concept to design engineer Earl Geddes.

There was another insect-related application of the word more than 20 years ago in San Diego.  There someone started an informal car club called "The Yellow Swarm".  That invited owners of yellow cars to meet up for weekend tours, all makes welcome from Fiats to Ferraris.

But unfortunately here things have gone far off track from answering the OP's original question of why there has not been broader adoption of the Swarm concept?  That answer seems obvious.  General consumer interest (not the dedicated few) has diminished for multi-channel and large speaker set ups.  Even shoe box size is too large.  Tiny cubes and even wireless seems to be in demand.  It's no wonder that two main speakers and four subs are not of interest except for the dedicated few.  ;^)
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