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Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman

Showing 4 responses by mitch2

mitch2
4,237 posts
 
Off topic - 
@atmasphere 
and in fact we have with internally geared hubs (the Rohloff being the best of them) and the Pinion gearbox which is mounted in the frame.
No kidding....

Rohloff 14-speed German Speedhub and Pinion 12-speed gearbox.....my Dura Ace have been absolutely reliable but man, those two internal hubs are sweet!

mitch2
4,237 posts
 
My Aerial SW12 subs are supposed to be pretty good but going from one sub to two made a huge difference in overall sound quality for the better.  The improvements seem to affect the entire frequency range and not just the bass.  Below is a quote from Aerial’s Michael Kelly.
One SW12 provides satisfying high quality mono bass. Two SW12's produce more realistic stereo bass, higher levels, and better smoothness. Three SW12's add front / rear information and truly envelope the listener in bass.
Based on my experience going from one sub to two, as well as what I have read about the subject, I would like to try adding a third SW12 placed asymmetrically in the room.  If I were starting over, I would definitely try Duke’s Swarm Subwoofer System but as @erik_squires points out, you need to be willing to have four additional boxes in your room.  Eric, I read your blog and am curious whether you have heard the Swarm System and, if so, what were your listening impressions?  I understand not trusting products with over the top fan boys but that is different from actually trying something and not liking how it sounds.
mitch2
4,237 posts
 
@veerossi 
I’d bet if Duke and James joined forces with REL, they would sell the crap out of a wireless/ self-powered 4 sub bass array.
Your comment made me think of two reasons I have not tried a DBA yet, and something Duke (or somebody) could work on to help those of us who already own and use two great sounding subs:
  • first, I do not want to buy a new 4 sub set-up since I already have two really nice Aerial SW-12 subs
  • second, my room is already wired with dedicated electrical lines/outlets and all my system wiring is against one wall
  • however, I would be very interested in adding just two subs for the purpose of smoothing out the bass response and more evenly loading the room
  • I would also be interested if I could do this without purchasing two more relatively expensive SW-12s but rather if I could use different, less expensive subs
  • I would be even more interested if those two additional subs could receive their signal wirelessly since that would take away one of my biggest problems of how to get a signal to them 
mitch2
4,237 posts
 
@tyray
Your above quote from Aerial’s Michael Kelly is very similar to a multiple sub white paper excerpt here:
Earl Geddes was Manager of Advanced Audio at Ford Motor Company here in Michigan and has a PhD in Acoustics, while his wife (and partner in their mostly dormant company GedLee) Lidia has a PhD in Audiology and teaches at Eastern Michigan University. Earl’s Ph.D thesis was on the acoustics of low frequencies in small rooms, so he should know a thing or two about subwoofers and bass behavior in audio rooms.
If you want a fun read, take a look at their Dagogo interview from June of 2012. Below the link, I have included some interesting quotes from the interview that apply to the issues discussed in these Audiogon threads every week.
https://www.dagogo.com/an-interview-with-dr-earl-geddes-of-gedlee-llc/
Quotes from the interview:
  • Perception is what we want to know, but since these are human perceptions there is a huge array of external biases that get involved.
  • But the real point here is that someone is not a good judge of sound quality just because they think that they are –
  • I came to conclude that the more someone claimed to be a “golden ear” the less likely it was that they actually were.
  • For the most part I have found that most audio dogma and folklore is simply incorrect. Audio is like a religion, most aspects of its fundamental beliefs are accepted on faith and most supporting rational is constructed in such a way as to be untestable.
  • Uncontrolled listening tests won’t get you there, that much is certain. These types of tests have a strong bias towards change for change’s sake (among numerous others) and as such have a tendency to go in circles.
  • After working in this area for a long time, I have concluded that the very common phrase “I know what I hear!” is simply incorrect. The fact is that people do not have reliable perceptual capabilities when it comes to sound quality. .....Many people will completely discount any and all scientific facts if they contradict a closely held personal belief.
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