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Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman

Showing 10 responses by mahgister

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,445 posts
 
Thanks for your patience and interest.....

My best to you....
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,445 posts
 
I called them active because they resonate in diffusing the sound....They are also many of them connected to my Shumann generators.... I use also Helmholtz resonators....But the resonators i use most were cheap brass cap or cone of different size in some grids...Connected or not... With some minerals in the center or not..... My diffusors plays a great role also... I use a grid of "strings of cheap minerals" suspended from the ceilings, some are connected some not.....Very efficient to diffuse the sound.... The main problem was for me the balance between reflective, absorbent and diffusive surface or device...

They are certainly audible because i only use my ears.... :)

I take many months to create this room.... And there is no comparison at all in nearfield or regular position with before and after....

It is why acoustic control for me exceed often upgrading electronic component in powerful transformation of S.Q.
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,445 posts
 
Active devices controls of the room with a balance between, absorption, reflections, and diffusions, and using device (different diffusors of my creation and active resonators connected to a grid of low cost Schumann generators) to take the positive side of reverberations for example....

Active because i connect them to the S.G..... And the different resonators of different size .... I use my audio room only for music then it is possible to experiment....In a common room my device are not esthetical nor practical....

But i think it is not the thread to describe these unorthodox experiments of mine...My only point is treating the room must be made for all frequencies and in relation to timbre accuracy first and not bass....

:)

 I apologize for having disrupted this thread.....

My best to all....
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,445 posts
 
:)

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,445 posts
 
mahgister Yeah, but did you have a swarm or an array of sub woofers?
You are right i dont have one..... Sometimes we must be silent....I let escape one occasion to be silent....

My best to you....
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,445 posts
 
So to those stating to fix the room first for Pete’s Sake!, my experience is that it minimally effected my room and system’s bass performance but dramatically positively effected most everything else.
It seems i am deluded or in hallucinegic transe if you were right....

I fix my room and this had a tremendous effect on bass .... Clarity and quantity.... Your experience confirm my experience that PASSIVE only room treatment is insufficient... We need ACTIVE device controls also....

I re-mute myself....
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,445 posts
 
I’m an advocate of using the Swarm because it fixes bass issues by breaking up standing waves in the room, something that can’t be done easily with both room treatment and bass management combined.
You forget Active acoustical device controls...

People dont realize that bass dont exist in his bass world.... All frequencies are linked together in the acoustical space...

The easiest low cost way to improve bass is to improve the acoustical settings controls of the room not only passively but actively...

The idea to improve bass with woofers BEFORE improving the room acoustic baffle me.... Sorry....

What do we want a better sound musically or a bigger bass?

I dont doubt that the swarm is a good idea, read me for what i said....

It probably seems highly counter-intuitive that a SMALLER room would benefit the most from having a LOT of subs, but the explanation is pretty simple:

Smaller rooms start out worse, and therefore have more room for improvement.
This affirmation is comical in a way....If you are a shorter man you will benefit the most from a larger suit!

The truth is acoustical treatment and active controls change a room, bass included....The suit fit the individual so to speak....

I am sure that Swarm is a good idea, i repeat, but for most people not a good one at all, because impractical, and costly, and changing the acoustic dont begin with the bass obsession....

I mute myself now.....
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,445 posts
 
For anyone in a situation where a distributed multi-sub system is impractical, obviously something else would be a better choice. Maybe something like this:

" one sub is better than no sub and two subs is better than one sub. "

(Actually imo one sub may not always be better than no sub - many dipole owners have tried one sub and gone back to no sub.)
I think that one sub "may" be better than no sub in some case, but more often then not, mechanical and electrical embeddings combined with mainly a rightfully done acoustical embeddings make the urge to use a sub obsolete, especially in a small room...Except for heavy metal and cinema for sure.... :)

For bigger room probably a "swarm" is certainly interesting....If you listen mainly jazz and classic less interesting tough....
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,445 posts
 
People debate without end about electronic piece of gear, 1 or 4 or zero, without almost never informing themselves first about the embeddings...

No piece of gear can rival embeddings controls done rightfully....Even and especially in bass section.... For sure if you buy a 100,000 dollars system with 4 subs this will beat my 450 dollars system without one and even with one done right.... I will not argue against that even before listening to it....

There is exception to any law....

My law is dont upgrade anything, embed everything before doing that....

:)


This is a very important observation indeed:
Help others figure out what is best for them not for us.



Then dont give any money to upgrade before trying to embed your audio system...

 Necessary upgrading to reach audiophile experience is an half truth only , then, worst than a lie....

I apologize because the topic is the "swarm" not my rant about embedding but......

My best to all....
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,445 posts
 
I own speakers with 7 inches bass driver...

With acoustic ACTIVE devices controls and not only PASSIVE materials treatment, they gives me so much bass which i feel with my stomach that i disconnected my sub....

( A sub was not a good idea for me because too difficult to make it right and i realize that on the spot, but i bought it thinking my speakers were not adequate in the bass region and i was wrong like i realized AFTER my room controls treatment and active devices )

Acoustic of the room is the most underestimated factor in audio with the general noise floor of the house....Active acoustic devices controls seems totally unknown , sellers prefer to sells costly materials for passive treatment but they cannot do by themselves alone what active controls can do in difficult small room with an irregular geometry and a complex acoustical content.... :)

For example how do we use reverberations in a positive way to make the sound more alive with only a passive treatment? No way, it takes active acoustical control devices....Cancelling ALL reverberations is not the right answer at all....

I dont doubt that 4 subs are better than only one tough..... But i dont feel the need for them now with cello listening, or piano....And my room will not accept the 4 boxes, being too small....And anything i cannot replicate myself is too much money for my purse anyway....

I post here only to mention about an unknown side road or alternative underestimated solutions...

If i was selling subs i would prefer to sell expansive one than 4 cheap one for sure....If i was selling acoustical room treatment i would prefer to sell only costly materials than cheap device active controls....

:)


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