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Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman

Showing 3 responses by brownsfan

brownsfan
1,508 posts
 
People who are in the business of selling are going to promote what they sell, and more often than not, are going to downplay products that they do not sell.   Is there a single Magico dealer in the world who would tell you that Wilson makes better speakers?  

As far as "fanboy" comments that may appear hyperbolic, I suspect most of us can empathize with a person who has worked hard and long to optimize their system, who are eloquent in praise of a key element in that painful optimization effort.  I rarely take anything I read on Audiogon as gospel truth.  You just need to temper what you read sometimes. 

I have a dedicated listening room that I have been working on for a while.  I've carefully optimized speaker and main listening position, and added a fair amount of room treatment.  The room is an order of magnitude better than it was when I started, but I've gone as far as those efforts can take me.  Further improvements will require equalization or a distributed bass array. 

I made a decision to give the Swarm system a try after reading the Earl Geddes publications that explain the theoretical underpinnings of the distributed array approach.  I'm still waiting for delivery, so I can't comment based on experience, but in my view, Ralph hit the nail on the head.
Those that denigrate a distributed bass array are apparently simply ignorant of its advantages. Many dealers don't sell them, so their comments can be sidelined safely enough.
The DBA approach just makes too much sense for anyone to dismiss a priori, especially if that dismissal comes from someone who makes a ton of money selling REL subs. 

I'm still waiting for delivery of the Swarm, so I can't comment based on experience.  The Swarm may not do what I am hoping it will do, but if it does not significantly improve bass response in my particular room, that doesn't invalidate the approach.   There are no products that are the right choice for every situation. 




brownsfan
1,508 posts
 
So I think most people would agree that addressing excess decay times (ringing) is as important or more important that flat frequency response.  I've added a good bit of range limited traps to my room which have helped substantially to reduce ringing.  Overall, the room is about 20% treated with the vast majority being range limited bass traps (GIK Soffit/Mega and Realtraps Mondo limp membranes) in the corners and front wall.

For those of you using DBA combined with room treatments, did you find that the DBA reduced ringing substantially without room treatments, or should I expect my Swarm to primarily rectify nulls at the MLP and expect that the traps will be required to achieve good decay times?

I guess my plan would be to remove room treatments and optimize the bass response without room treatment, then add back the bass traps judiciously to further improve frequency response and ringing.  BTW, mains are down 3 dB at 27 Hz, but I have decent response down to 20Hz or so.  Is that a reasonable approach?

Finally, I've read about the crawl approach to optimal placement on the Audiokinesis site, but I'm thinking of using REW to supplement what I hear.  Anyone find REW useful in Swarm sub placement?


brownsfan
1,508 posts
 
@noble100 ,  Thanks for your helpful comments Tim.  In answer to your question, I have ordered a Swarm system.

Interesting comments on your experience with decay times.  In my case, REW shows the frequencies at which ringing is observed correspond to peaks in the frequency response curves, so I am pretty sure that these aberrations are due to room modes and not equipment.  I've got 3 GIK soffit traps, 3 RealTraps Mondo Traps, and 2 GIK Mega traps in the room, and these did a pretty good job of mitigating modal ringing.  What ringing remains is at a very low frequency where trapping struggles.  I've also got some speaker cabinet resonance adding to the delayed decay at the lowest frequencies. 

My thinking on removing the room treatments is that I will likely want to have one sub in a corner, and all of the corners are treated.  None of my corner treatments are permanently installed, so removal will be trivial, and doing so will allow me to select the best corner for placement of one sub.  

My room is dedicated, and I have almost complete freedom to place all 4 subs in all three dimensions. 

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