2. analog
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Hear my Cartridges....🎶

Many Forums have a 'Show your Turntables' Thread or 'Show your Cartridges' Thread but that's just 'eye-candy'.... These days, it's possible to see and HEAR your turntables/arms and cartridges via YouTube videos.
Peter Breuninger does it on his AV Showrooms Site and Michael Fremer does it with high-res digital files made from his analogue front ends.
Now Fremer claims that the 'sound' on his high-res digital files captures the complex, ephemeral nuances and differences that he hears directly from the analogue equipment in his room.
That may well be....when he plays it through the rest of his high-end setup 😎
But when I play his files through my humble iMac speakers or even worse.....my iPad speakers.....they sound no more convincing than the YouTube videos produced by Breuninger.
Of course YouTube videos struggle to capture 'soundstage' (side to side and front to back) and obviously can't reproduce the effects of the lowest octaves out of subwoofers.....but.....they can sometimes give a reasonably accurate IMPRESSION of the overall sound of a system.

With that in mind.....see if any of you can distinguish the differences between some of my vintage (and modern) cartridges.
VICTOR X1
This cartridge is the pinnacle of the Victor MM designs and has a Shibata stylus on a beryllium cantilever. Almost impossible to find these days with its original Victor stylus assembly but if you are lucky enough to do so.....be prepared to pay over US$1000.....🤪
VICTOR 4MD-X1
This cartridge is down the ladder from the X1 but still has a Shibata stylus (don't know if the cantilever is beryllium?)
This cartridge was designed for 4-Channel reproduction and so has a wide frequency response 10Hz-60KHz.
Easier to find than the X1 but a lot cheaper (I got this one for US$130).
AUDIO TECHNICA AT ML180 OCC
Top of the line MM cartridge from Audio Technica with Microline Stylus on Gold-Plated Boron Tube cantilever.
Expensive if you can find one....think US$1000.

I will be interested if people can hear any differences in these three vintage MM cartridges....
Then I might post some vintage MMs against vintage and MODERN LOMC cartridges.....🤗
128x128halcro

Showing 10 responses by edgewear

edgewear
543 posts
 
@halcro,
Digitizing would be very silly of course, but you now have the perfect excuse to buy the best open reel tape machine you can afford to preserve the Sony sound in all analog.......

edgewear
543 posts
 
No, not really. I only have a humble Nakamichi 700 II cassette recorder. I bought it for nostalgic reasons mostly and while it sounds very nice, it's no match for vinyl playback. For that you probably need to look at 2 track open reel at 38 cm/sec. I've been looking at this from a distance, 'cause this is where my wife draws the line. You have to pick your fights and this isn't one of them.

Anyway, the golden standard of course are professional master recorders like the Studer A-80, some of which have found their way to domestic surroundings. I believe one member here - mikelavigne - even has two, so he should be able to let you in on the intricacies of finding one is good condition. There was a time when these machines sporadically  appeared on the open market at reasonable prices, but those days have passed.

There's also the top models of domestic audio, like Revox A77, Technics RS-1700 or even Akai GX-747 (not sure if I have all the numbers correct), but again prices have gone up dramatically for well kept specimen. The reason is probably those darned reviewers who have been plugging open reel tape as the best analog source for some years now, fueling a whole new market of refurbished / redesigned tape machines and 'master tape copies' at very high prices. But with your Sony you could beat them at their game and create your own master tape copies.......



edgewear
543 posts
 
My previous message prompted me to play that record again and what do you know, I had the names mixed up. The earlier BPO recording is also with Paul Tortelier. Oeps.....

I played both versions and my memory that they're quite different still makes sense, thank goodness. It just goes to show how a decade can change an artist's interpretation, in this case both the cellist and the conductor. Fascinating. 

edgewear
543 posts
 
Great suggestions frogman, the Four Last Song by Schwarzkopf and Szell would be one of my desert island picks. Solti’s Elektra too (yup, I’d need a pretty big island...). But the original ED2 label Decca pressing is actually cheaper than the Speakers Corner reissue and probably sounds much better.

Halcro, if you ARE a Decca fan (and which classic music fan isn’t?) you should really hear ’An Alpine Symphony’ by Mehta. A sonic spectacular in the best sense of the word. This guy had a great tenure with the LAPO, yielding many excellent recordings. Most of these are from the later ’narrow band’ label era that ’pressing snobs’ usually sneeze at, so they’re available at very modest prices. His ’Ein Heldenleben and ’Don Quichote’ are also very good.

While we’re at it, I’ll even go on record saying that his Mahler 3 is THE best sounding orchestral recording in my entire collection. You won’t believe what you’ll hear.


edgewear
543 posts
 
Good find, Halcro. Kempe was surely one of the great Strauss conductors. You should also try his way with Wagner and Brahms. And HMV did some historic recordings behind the iron curtain in the 70's. Another high point was Karajan's Meistersinger, also with the Dresden orchestra.

For me, Strauss' greatest instrumental piece is Don Quichote, a Cello Concerto in all but name. Paul Tortelier as soloist on the Dresden set is fantastic, but Kempe's recording with Pierre Fournier more than a decade earlier with the Berlin Philharmonic (also on HMV) is perhaps even better. Both performances by these great cellists are masterly - but very different - studies into the Don's complex character. The tenderness, the melancholy, the lunacy. Marvelous stuff!

edgewear
543 posts
 
I never gave those Koetsus much attention, but your links made me take a closer look at their pricing as well as their specs. It appears they’re all the same cartridges with the same silver coils, platinum magnets and boron cantilevers (not even diamond cantilevers at these prices). And yet the price differential between the ’cheapest’ Onyx and dearest Blue Lace is $5000!!!!! Talk about cynical. I almost feel sorry for the folks who buy into this nonsense.

edgewear
543 posts
 
Unfortunately I don't have the playback tools and/or the golden ears of dover and frogman to make a valid judgment call on these audio files. But it's nice that others acknowledge the merits of the FR-3 headshell. For some reason it has a bad rep with several members of this community. It's clunky and looks decidedly old school, but I like the way it sounds, especially with FR64S. Robust and meaty are indeed words that come to mind. Same with the slightly less bulbous FR-S/5. But perhaps I'm biased as I really dislike carbon fiber headshells like Yamamoto or Oyaide, both of which I tried.

For threaded cartridges the later FR RS-121 and RS-141 are also recommended, while for unthreaded cartridges I've always had great results with the Audiocraft AS-4PL and AS-12K headshells.

@dover I have several versions of the Ikeda IS-2T headshell (2TB, 2TW and 2TCR) and they are better than the regular IS-2 as well as the earlier IS-1R series. The T's are the most neutral headshells I have tried so far. They're a perfect match for the 'high precision' school of cartridges, like Transfiguration and MSL. But for my Ikeda 9 Rex I kept the IS-1G in place, simply because it looks so pretty. 

edgewear
543 posts
 
Okay, I’ve finally made a serious attempt to listen through the limitations and distortions of the iPad speakers.

Cartridge A is much clearer and open than cartridge B. Much more dynamic as well but perhaps also a little edgy, if the distortion on these little ’speakers’ is anything to go by. Probably one of the modern high resolution MC’s, perhaps the Palladium which I’m not familiar with. I’d be surprised if it would turn out to be the XL-88D, which is also wide open and transparent, but has a more full bodied and warmer presentation (based on my experience with the Takai Lab Final version).

Cartridge B sounds very limited and constricted, almost AM sound compared to FM. It’s probably the MM cartridge, but this assumption is not based on any recognition of the ’species’, as I don’t have any MM’s to compare. It could just as well be a Denon DL103 or some other limited MC with a less advanced or perhaps even spherical tip. If so, than cartridge A would be the MM. In that case I’d be most curious to find out what it is and get one.

First try, so please be gentle with me 😔



edgewear
543 posts
 
Thanks for this experiment Halcro, great fun. It is still difficult for me to listen through the distortion of the laptop speakers and tonal nuances mostly get lost in translation, but I'll give it a go anyway.

I concentrated on listening to the rhythmic presentation, based on my impression that DD is usually prone to latch on to the attack, while BD more emphasizes the flow of the music. At least that is what I hear comparing my own DD table (Pioneer PL-70L II) and BD tables (Micro BL-91G and RX-1500S). I also tried to bring back from memory the experience with my previous BD table (TW Acoustic Raven GT SE with Black Knight battery power supply), which tended to sound slightly dark and subjectively slow paced. This could be a TW family character shared by Halcro's Raven AC.

All that said, I feel TT1 & 4 have the more tightly organized rhythmic presentation I associate with DD, while TT2 & 3 have a more relaxed and flowing presentation, so these would be the BD tables.

Would mr. Fremer take the challenge? The suspense is growing.....😆

edgewear
543 posts
 
It's actually quite amazing that the gestalt of the musical presentation remains intact even through such a mediocre device as - in my case - a laptop 'speaker'.

For me the Casino Royal comparison was fairly easy, probably because the music itself is rather slow paced and a bit wavery, which is accentuated even more by the presentation typical of BD. With the Stravinsky it was much harder as the music itself is very incisive and spikey, which to some extend hides the intrinsic flowing nature of BD. And this BD characteristic was perhaps further masked by the Decca London. While I haven't heard it myself, it shares the rhythmic articulation associated with 'direct couple' or cantileverless cartridges like Ikeda 9 Rex and Victor MC-L1000, which I'm very familiar with.

I don't necessarily think this should make you jump ship. For me the wavering aspect of BD should mostly be attributed to the use of a rubber belt. My old Micro RX1500 (with separated motor unit, stainless steel plateau, copper mat and brass stabilizer ring) uses the non compliant SF-1 kevlar belt. This is a massive improvement over a rubber belt and largely closes the gap with DD in terms of pitch stability, while retaining the somewhat more organic presentation of BD. In terms of rhythmic presentation is sits between the BL-91G with rubber belt and the Pioneer DD table.

So there's a middle ground that can offer the best of both worlds. Obviously this Micro is nowhere near state of the art, so you don't even need to spend a fortune to get there.
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