Headphones - Senn HD 800 or Grado RS1i.......

I'll give you a contrasting opinion to the good information HelloFidelity provided: I prefer the Senn's for their far superior soundstaging and general sense of dimension (which is difficult to attain in a headphone in my experience). They are great overall performers suiting all kinds of music. Grado RS1's occur to me as better suited towards rock. They are certainly easier to drive, and definitely sound quite different. Grado is known for a warmer sound with most of their cans. The RS1's certainly did occur to me as fun and engaging as stated above, but for the music I listen to, which does not include much rock at all, I prefer the HD800's. I would say in the bass department the RS1 would occur to have the slight edge, occurring perhaps as more full sounding, while I feel the HD800 is probably more accurate. The RS1 is usually not the Grado can someoone who is considering the HD800's would be considering. The more traditionally compared Grado would be their PS1000's, which would definitely give the HD800's a run for their money, at a slightly higher price.

I also recommend looking into the Grado GS1000 and PS1000 if you are considering the Senn HD800.

I wouldn't go for GS1000's - I've had two different pairs. Soundstage they have in spades. Great bass? Not really, but OK. They also have a slightly recessed midrange which seems to work well for classical, but not as well for anything really mainstream (rock, pop, vocals, etc.). They are not like anything else in the Grado line, and they are rather distinctive headphones. They are completely not like the RS1's you are considering. They are outstanding cans for low-level listening (probably the best I've heard). I actually like them, but I much prefer the more versatile HD800's. For both bass and sounstage in the Grado line listen to the PS1000's. I'd try to buy your amp according to he heaphones you get and the music you like and how you like to listen to it. Headfi.org is a good resource for all things headphones if you can wade through the noise. No experience with the Headroom amp to make a comment.

Jax2, can you tell us if the sound staging of the Grado PS1000 comes close to that of the HD800. I currently
have the HD600's. Can anyone tell me how much better
both of these are compared to the HD600's?

I use them on my Cary 300b SEI tube gear, my home theater
and I plan on getting a Naim Headline2.

The staging on the HD800's and the GS1000 are the best I've heard coming from headphones with the Senns being my favorites because it doesn't have the same midrange dip the Grado does and suits a wider variety of music. I had a pair of HD600's for a short while and didn't listen to them much because they just didn't excite me. The 800's do not sound like them or the 650's and are unique in that regard. To me they were a headphone revelation, and are much better than there other offerings. Soundstaging in headphones is NOT the same as the illusion with great speakers because it's stuck in your head in a sense...I'll take the speakers every time. But relative to other headphones the really good ones do create an illusion of their own. There's a company that makes a rather unique device that is getting some great comments - if you are into the illusion of soundstaging there is nothing quite like this out there. Haven't heard that myself. The idea is to get the illusion out of your head and into your perception of space around you in a way. Headphones are a whole other world of listening. There are other cult classic cans from Stax to K1000's to Sony R1's...the list goes one. Again, Headfi.org is a good resource, sans noise. Though I strongly prefer speakers, I also find the need to listen with headphones to keep the house quiet occasionally for my wife.

The Cary SEI is supposed to have an excellent headphone output.

ThomasTrouble - I'd find it very hard to conceive that anyone would be disappointed with HD800's. If you were you could just return them. If you go past the return period you can very easily sell them for only a few hundred less than you bought them if that - they will sell very fast on headfi.org. No experience with that amp though. Let us know what you think.

Scottmac - I've only heard the PS1000 once before and was very impressed in that brief exposure. I had not heard the GS1000 at that time nor the HD800's, so I resisted making any comparisons. If memory serves they were a bit more punchy and rich, while the HD800's could be slightly more 'airly' and occur to me as effortless in their presentations of various types of music. Again, that is from memory. No doubt the PS1000's are fine cans. The HD800's presented a sound I loved at first listen and had to have it. That did not happen with the PS1000, but I think that could be entirely a case of personal preference. Another more economical can (around $600) worth looking into are HE5LE's. I tried a pair of their predecessors and was mighty impressed, especially by staging. Ultimately I found them a bit too aggressive and sent them back within the 30-day trial period. The LE supposedly does away with certain stridencies in the original. An HE6 is in beta currently. These cans require a powerful amp to work well. Their own tube amp supposedly is a good match, but not the only way to go. Just don't try them with any headphone amp - these need at least 2 watts - check user reviews for appropriate amps to use.

That's great that you prefer a MUCH less expensive headphone. Give it a bit of time and continue to compare as long as you can return them, but if they are that close to you at this point, I wonder if there are any changes in break-in that would be significant enough to warrant the extra $1000+ investment?

Well, as it turns out these have got waaaaay more low-end slam than the Senns and they sound great, no, make that fantastic - a nice "big" sound!!!!

=243&graphID[1]=863&graphID[2]=&graphID[3]=&graphType=0&buttonSelection=Compare+Headphones]As you can see here the bass response of the two headphones directly compared is not quite what you seem to be describing. It's not all about the numbers though. Regardless, if you like what you're hearing that's all that matters. Keep the cheaper cans and be happy! That said, my HD800's put out ample bass that is not in any way bloated, or lacking in detail. If you are a bass-head you may really like the HE5LE that I mentioned before. But again, if you like the Denon's as much as you do, I say, go no further - enjoy your music.

I am keeping an open-mind here since so many people really see the Senns as "the" headphone.

There are too many "the headphones" - choose your own, don't listen to what others say. HD800's are just one of many cost-no-object attempts at getting it right. As you may have guessed, just like with speakers, opinions will vary widely and all this stuff is subjective. BTW I had a pair of Denon D5000's for a few months. I liked those pretty well too, but moved on looking for better staging. What I've found in moving up the chain in headphones has been that gains have been mostly in refinement and capturing subtle nuances and occurring to flow without any strain or effort. Bass doesn't come as such an expensive part of the package as it does with speakers. Most of the decent headphones can reproduce pretty low bass, though the better ones reveal much more within that low bass.

Whoops, my hyperlink must have got corrupted. =243&graphID

Scottmac - do you live near Portland, OR. If so you can listen to those and various other headphones at 32 Ohm. There are probably other resources in major cities. Or try doing what ThomasTrouble did and buy both and return whichever you do not prefer before the trial period ends. As you can see from Thomas responses, there are no hard and fast rules that say everyone is going to necessarily prefer one over the other, and $ don't necessarily buy "better" in some cases. To me the ultimate cans have been the 800's, and nothing I've heard comes close as far as staging. They do not sound like 600's at all to me. I'm using a tube amp too - a Woo WA6SEM. I'd bet the Cary would do a fine job with either choice. I'm way into female vocals though not much into electronic chill (honestly don't know what that is). To get some info on the PS1000, go over to headfi.org - here's some reading for you - again, bag of salt applies, just like it would here or anywhere. Plenty of useful info that can be distilled there though. Let us know what you do.

Scottmac - If you are in Seattle, as am I, I'm pretty sure Definitive carries a Grado and Senns....not positive though...I haven't been to Stereo Row in a long time. 32 Ohm has it all and great amps as well. Here's a feature on them.

I use a Woo Audio WA6SE maxxed-out. It's a very good pairing with the HD800's but I'd be willing to bet the Cary would be great too. Do you know how much power output the headphone jack has on that? The downside of the HD800's is that they really demand a good amp (again - though I have no direct experience to say for sure, I'd bet the Cary would be up to the task). I'm not sure that the Grado would be as demanding - It is certainly easier to drive. I've never heard the Naim headline and don't know anything about it. I assume it is SS since it is Naim. In general I've tended to prefer tube amps, but not as a rule. With the kind of investment you'd be making in one of those cans, I'd definitely take the time to compare them directly with the kind of music you like listening to and see which one floats your boat (or if either do). Being in this region, you have no excuse not to. There is a headphone meet coming up very soon put on by Headfi.org members. I've been to one before, just a few months ago. They are a nice group of folks - very diverse, ... more so than the range of folks I've met via Audiogon. It may be worth your time to go check it out - you may hear some things you've never heard and really like. You can tell Gil I sent you. It's only about two weeks away. You don't have to bring anything at all with you - some folks come to listen and socialize. Most bring their headphone rigs, and there's all kinds of systems there. I'm sure there will be at least one HD800...probably a Beyer T1 too (another good candidate for fans of Rock who want the refinement and detail of a really good headphone). I did not see any Grados PS1000's at the last meet though. If you really want to listen to one find a dealer that has both like 32 Ohm.

Your Woo Audio looks interesting. Are you using the
Sophia tubes? I used to have the Sophia mesh 300b's
in my Cary and it was the most glorious mid range
I have ever heard coming from my Cary. However, this
faded after about 50 hours. Possibly too much juice for
the mesh plates.

Unfortunately, I do not make it up to Portland very often.
Looks like 32 Ohm would be the place to go.

Thanks again for the useful information.

I did try the Sophia for a few weeks...maybe a month. I did not like it, but I was using Grado GS1000's at the time (very different from my current HD800's). I found it tended to soften the dynamics...not sure if that's a good description. It seemed to slow things down to some degree.

I'm currently using an EML 5U4G mesh in the Woo and that works very well for me.

I used to have 300B SET amps in my speaker system which I used for around six years - loved them. Nothing could beat WE 300B's in those amps. The newer Svets were pretty good too, but the WE's were king. I tried the Sophias there and really didn't like them at all, but this was in entirely different amps than yours.

I use a pair of Black Treasures (from Ian) in my Modwright Transporter. I agree, they are excellent tubes (in that application at least). Sorry, I don't know what you are using them for though - which tube type are you using? The only competitor in the Transporter that I have are Tung Sol rounds, which are also excellent, but mighty expensive and getting more and more difficult to find.