I don’t normally reply to your stalking. As I said " This is also why some get their nickers in a knot big time about passives, as they have amps that are very left field with next to zero gain, and they can’t use passives or even in some cases a 0 gain buffer, LIKE!!! this one of Nelson Pass’s below unless their source put out voltage big time, which I’ve never seen. "The F4 needs a preamp that has voltage gain - a passive preamp or buffer will not drive an F4. This amp has no voltage gain so works best when paired with an active preamp that has reasonable gain." It’s that time again, https://cdn1.vectorstock.com/i/1000x1000/36/05/drunk-emoticon-vector-3653605.jpg, and flag yourself, your good at it. Now go away!!!!. |
im not the most technical...
Yes and I don’t know how they designed their output stage, as I said "if " it’s like the MSB discrete r2r dac I have each phase runs off each of the 4 resistor banks and if you had the XLR output used and the SE it could load two banks differently. This is why I said send and email to Denafrips and ask is it ok to use both the xlr and se at the same time?? Cheers George |
Hi jriggy, yes in the Denafrips (very nice dac btw) you do have 4 separate converter outputs giving true xlr. https://ibb.co/fG5hmdhBut what you intend to do may work fine, but by using both xlr and se outputs I can see that the phase of the one you want to use "maybe" loaded differently compared to the other phase, as the output of my MSB discrete R2R comes straight from these 4 x resistor banks. Best off sending an email off to Denafrips to see if it will load one side of the balanced phase differently and if these’s a problem with that? Cheers George |
jriggy
how do we feel about XLR out of DAC > Passive > SE out to SE amp??? Any downsides, asumming the rest of the scenario is working well?? There is no problem in doing this, but why not go all the way with SE from the dac, you may even get a better sound if your dac has "pseudo" balanced outputs that have an extra opamp to turn it SE into balanced. PS: I just had a look at your equipment from other posts, and you have an AMR dac, I know that Thorsten Loesch uses SE dac converters in his dac's and cdp's, so your SE output will be more "pure" in quality than the balanced as is won't have the pseudo balanced opamp in the signal path. Cheers George |
celander My Teo Audio Liquid Pre passive
I’ve never experienced a more authentic, transparent, three-dimensional musical reproduction experience, including reproduction from my previous audio systems having what I now know to possess perfectly-matched impedances throughout. A very good passive, and from what my sources tell me, it’s a 23 position "shunt" type passive volume control, 1 fixed series resistor, and 1 variable shunt resistor (48 total), not the best way of doing a passive volume control, the "ladder" is best, "series" being the worst. https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/uploads/monthly_2018_06/Capture.JPG.93bbd2ce49060300b06abfd1a62ce8f... This is a 23 step stereo "ladder" using Dale resistors, total of 92 resistors total, signal still only goes through 1 series (variable) and 1 shunt resistor (variable), this give more stable output impedance compared to "shunt" http://www.analogmetric.com/images/200812/1229844904628152861.jpgCheers George |
mrdecibel
Take care of the impedance issue, using buffers ( 0 gain ) and the source can drive most power amps quite well. This is also why some get their nickers in a knot big time about passives, as they have amps that are very left field with next to zero gain, and they can’t use passives or even in some cases a 0 gain buffer, like this one of Nelson Pass’s below unless their source put out voltage big time, which I've never seen. "The F4 needs a preamp that has voltage gain - a passive preamp or buffer will not drive an F4. This amp has no voltage gain so works best when paired with an active preamp that has reasonable gain." Cheers George |
mrdecibel
I have run 3 different dacs, 4 different tuners, a Samsung cable box, and a laptop from it’s headphone jack, through the passive, all with excellent results. I have also used 4 of my power amps, again, all with excellent results. If I am listening to distortions, so be it. It betters the preamps in detail, transparency, and neutrality. Enjoy ! MrD. You hit the nail on the head MrD with that proof. The others above are just in product protection mode. RK I suggest you don’t align yourself with the your new yes man, it won’t be healthy for you in the long run. mrdecibel
Take care of the impedance issue, using buffers ( 0 gain ) and the source can drive most power amps quite well. Yes it’s true, those impedance issues hardly raise their heads these days, that’s why passive are the way to go, buffers are the next choice if there’s impedance issues. tweak1
"Have Passive Preamps Finally Come of Age?"
Yes they have, and it’s more to do with what’s the sources are doing now that make them the preferred volume control choice, because today sources are low output impedance, have higher output voltage, are mostly dc coupled, and their output stages are as good if not better that many active preamps especially tube ones The only way of getting better sound than a passive this is to go direct from source to poweramp if the source has it’s own digital domain volume control that can be use in it’s top 25% so it doesn’t "bit strip". Cheers George |
it may explain why good active line stages can easily outperform passive devices in some cases. "In some cases" Very few. With 10k passives only if output to input impedance matching is below 1:10 ratio, which in most cases it’s not, unless the amp is 25k or lower. Some preamps are designed to have very large s/n ratios and very large voltage swing range capacity. This results in a far higher level of signal quality on the output, with regard to preserving micro differentials in the signal An active preamps gain stage after the volume control cannot give micro detail a "leg up" compared to the original, as the gain stage amplifies everything up, so it remains the same. But it does include it’s own noise and distortions on top of the original, which may give the illusion of detail. Nelson Pass on passives pres: "What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors – just musical perfection." "Just musical perfection" Which means "true to the source" nothing added or taken away. Cheers George |
If sources with 2 V output go into some kind of distortion mode ( running out of steam, if you will ), how can a preamp help the distortion ? Enjoy ! MrD.
Your right MrD, they can't. By reducing that 2v source with the volume control of an active pre, just shunts part of the 2v to ground. The other part being used (just as "distorted") goes to the preamps volume control then the gain stage, "yes" to be boosted back up again along with it's own distortion and noise also. Cheers George |
migueca91 posts08-04-2018 7:30amTisbury Audio passive preamplifier.
Very nicely thought out for the price, with -10db and -20db gain dip switch ability for high gain systems, and output dip switch for configuration. Just click on the photos. And they picked the right value to go with 10kohm, which suits most systems. http://www.tisburyaudio.co.uk/mini-passive-preamplifierCheers George |
My conclusion is that someone else designed the Lightspeed for you. You really need to look before you leap, this statement really shows your real worth. I don't even know why you bother posting on a "passive preamps" thread when you don't make them or don't believe in them. All I can think you're only here to denigrate them as best you can, because your trying "product protect" your own commercial stuff, because they are making a big dent in your sales. |
almarg And Al, a source that gives out 2v is always going to give it out, even if you shunt half of it to ground because you don’t need it, because you have more gain to make it back up in the active preamp. So the distortion from the source "whatever it is remains the same", it does not change because you’ve decided not to use half of it and shunted the other half to ground. If anything shunting more of it to ground "could" make it distort more. Cheers George |
atmasphere
Its pretty obvious you didn’t design the Lightspeed, so I’m interested in seeing the math. Really, you need a history lesson back to the 1970’s, your not worth the effort after that statement, you’ve really shown your ignorance now. tweak1 OP
Tortuga just introduced an active preamp Someone had to do buffered one, it’s been nagging at me to do it since Class-D came about with their very low input impedance, 10k many of them. But it really needs to be able to be switch out when not necessary into amps with high input impedance, as the best buffer is no buffer, just like the best coupling cap is no cap Cheers George |
Just looked at it tweak1 OP they missed the mark as nowhere does it say you can switch out the J-Fet buffer, that's a bummer. Nelson Pass kindly made a buffer for the Lightspeed Attenuator 10 years ago so his customers could drive a couple of models of his low impedance amps with the Lightspeed. I built one up and yes it sounded good and you needed it for those low impedance amps, but still, no buffer sounded better if it wasn’t needed. That’s why I say they missed the mark by not making it switchable. Here it is https://ibb.co/im8ZrKCheers George |
celander
Seriously. Go grab a beer You shouting!!! never joke about having a beer to an Aussie, mate, he'll be on to you like a rat up a drain pipe. Sorry Tweak again with the off topics. |
I will say, without a doubt, that I am much happier, without the preamps in my system. I have tried passives before, but never thought they " came of age " but it has all come together. I suppose I am one of the few lucky ones I don’t think Mr D that it’s a matter of passives coming of age as they are still basically what they used to be. More likely to me, that today’s sources have stronger output stages just as good as preamps in many cases, are dc coupled, have lower output impedances, as well as having twice (even more) the output voltage needed to fully drive poweramps to their full rated wattage output. So who needs more gain/noise and added electronics in the signal path from active preamps. Cheers George |
If a listener likes the sound of a certain type of passive in their system, then that’s what matters. If they want to compare their passive with an active circuit, then they can simply connect a buffer to the passive and decide which sounds better. There are many on this site who enjoy the sound of their passive volume controls and many others who prefer their active preamps or buffers. All this is so true, and I’m sure tweak1 is glad we are back on topic. " Have Passive Preamps Finally Come of Age? " I believe so and some, but like the active preamp, it also is going to become a dinosaur, as all the volume control duties are best done at the source so long as "bit stripping" is held in check maybe with a loudest level gain preset like Wadia and ML did, also with output stage buffers that are as good or better than most active preamps it going to be a win win, also noise floor is as low as it can get with direct source to amp connection, and only one set of interconnects. Cheers George |
Most good interconnects are 100pf per foot or less your citing of 300pf for a mt, is for a reasonable low capacitance interconnect and all my figures above in my last post are correct, and I have always stated so from the first Lightspeed built, and to use good quality interconnects that are 100pF per foot or less. What you stated is a total falsehood and misleading. With a 3 foot high quality cable (which would have 300pf) in such cases you would have a roll-off that is very real world. Apparently you had either clone or a faulty one or just BS’ing, and if your going to start on my product then you’ll receive the same. As for impedance matching, I have also always stated from the first one built that an output to input (Lightspeed to amp) impedance ratio should be 1:10 or higher, and have never said that it or any other 10kohm passive would be happy into a 10kohm amp input impedance. And that sources should have a low output impedance <500 ohms, not like most tubes sources have, very few like the Herron phono stage are fine. As I still believe these falsehoods are of someone in product protection mode, and to be honest I don’t blame you, threads like these cheap passives are a killer for $$$K preamp sales, and OTL’s can only drive so much, unless aided by Zero band-aids, of which I’m also anti. |
I don’t remember which customer lent us the Lightspeed You attack my product and you tell me to keep calm, conveniently not remembering who it was. With a 3 foot high quality cable (which would have 300pf) in such cases you would have a roll-off that is very real world. Then you present this BS, and then try to back peddle after I’ve shown the truth with the math. Clearly it’s you in damage control, after all this is a Passive Preamp thread and all you present is negatives. Stick to the active preamp threads and stop putting **** on passives at every opportunity. |
With a 3 foot high quality cable (which would have 300pf) in such cases you would have a roll-off that is very real world. Totally false and misleading. A 10kohm passive pre which the Lightspeed is also, has a worst scenario output impedance of 2.5kohm. This together with Ralph’s example of 300pf for a meter of interconnect, will give a high frequency -3db roll off point of 212kHz!!!! (bat hearing territory) With 2mts of the same interconnect (which btw is not low capacitance) the -3db is still 106kHz!!!! faster than any transformer output tube amp. You are kidding yourself calling this "very real world". (Just product protection mode from what I see with these sorts of comments) Cheers George |
Just stay on topic as
tweak1 OP asked, so I don't have to respond to your
“hilarious”
off topic remarks. Cheers George |
Sorry again
tweak1 OP some just don't stay on topic, rather complain about the wording of my product instead, as you can see even Al gets sucked off topic by them.. Cheers George |
perhaps just as easily as their products can be dismissed? And so can you sunshine, big time Specs "Frequency response: 0hz – to almost Infinity. (Lightspeed) (interconnects are the determining factor here)" ALMOST!! being the operative word here, interconnects are the limiting factor as Almarg stated, the interconnects are the determining HF factor. Cheers George |
Notwithstanding the hilarious frequency response claim, Did you or your kids ever term the phrase?????? Or maybe you don't get out enough??? It was meant as a bit of a joke, Infinity and beyond (Buzz Lightyear/Lightspeed!!) I think everyone here can see it’s a "exaggeration" in reference to the name Lightspeed v Infinity, except for you maybe. As for it’s actual "measured HF speed", when you can’t detect not even 1/10th of a dB drop with a 500mhz Tektronix scope, I think that can give me the "exaggerated" use of "infinity" in reference to the name Lightspeed, even if it is in jest. Cheers George |
To whom it may apply: "I" started THIS thread, NOT George. Sorry Tweak, it’s hard not to respond to others that are asking off topic questions. For $350 I would just go the Hattor mod with opamp, you have the Hattor and it’s very nicely made, the OPA2134 has a very nice musical sound not etched and sterile. It’s part of Texas Instruments/BB "Sound Plus" range which have always been good. As is my favourite dac chip, the PCM1704 Cheers George |
Wrong.
A resistor is far less likely to have an effect on the audio signal than a mile of thin wire coiled around inside a transformer core. GET REAL and go away three times and your out, you know that. |
I also tried TEO s overpriced passive Yes over priced for just 24 switched resistor position, do you know what value it was? 10 20 50 or 100k, and if it was a series, ladder or shunt switch resistor passive? As of yet I can’t find out, I’ll look harder tomorrow. This sort of thing leaves me https://www.emojirequest.com/images/CrossEyedEmoji.jpg"
Judciously placed vibration control materials are located within the case of the Liquid Pre for the purpose of tuning, as the performance of the Liquid Pre is so refined that everything matters. In fact the center foot on the bottom of the unit is interchangeable for the purpose of voicing the system in which it is used: soft to hard. Even placing a thin item such as a business card under the center foot can tailor the sound. Similarly, one does not want to place anything on top of the Liquid Pre such as a book, as it will be detrimental to the performance." This tech page of theirs might is no better might as well have been written by a tech word bot. http://www.teoaudio.com/technical/Cheers George |
Resistors have all that stuff too! NOWHERE NEAR IN THE SAME RATIOS AS A TVC. Last time now go away. |
Open your eyes what else Kosst, you've got inductance and capacitance in those TVC's on top of a mile of ultra thin wire with your resistance. Now go away, you are stalking again. |
analogluvr589 posts07-28-2018 11:01amBut as I mentioned previously I tried a passive with the Herron but preferred the active Yes you did, but you said you tried it with a TVC (a transformer based passive), this you needed to say. As if TVC ’s have problems, you outlined what they were when you explained what was missing. What do you think would happen to the Herron’s phono stage output signal if it had to travel through such a thin Transformer wire hundreds of mts long.? Unscathed? I don't think so. Cheers George |
George is consistently pushing these passive threads for that exact reason. And for someone who uses the same high gain Herron phono stage as this one. Here in case you missed it is this users report on utilising all the gain from the Herron source, instead of reducing with the AR Ref5se pre so it can just make it back up again with it’s gain stage. The owner of the Herron said the Lightspeed passive pre wins out over his Audio Research REF-5se and older Pass X1. He’s now getting a battery for the Lightspeed and will hopefully do an update here on that. "It sounds fantastic !!
I’m sure you have heard this before. I have done preliminary listening, approx 2x 4hours sessions.
With the Gryphon Amp, all things considered, I preferred LSA to the ARC ref5se and my older Pass X1.
Impedance match seems fine with Herron & Gryphon, no perceived roll offs, lack of dynamics etc."
Gain structure he has. Lyra Etna SL 0.25mV > Herron 64db > Lightspeed 0db > Gryphon Antillion input sens. for full output 0.97v (30db) > Wilson Sasha 90db HisTurntable https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c5/da/d3/c5dad306fea0f6cdda772d0ed07c2425.jpg Cheers George |
I actually push direct to amp more because it’s the best, if they have a volume control, if you bother to do your homework, which you clearly don’t.
The only time passives are mentioned is as the next best option is if the source has no volume, but hey you believe what you want.
Cheers George |
I have no doubt that Ralph is just in protection mode for his product.
Any source that has been designed to give out 2v has been done so to be done to do so in it's most linear state, you would be a fool to do otherwise, unlike what Ralph will have you believe.
To use all this 2v, is better than shunting it to ground with the preamps volume control, and then having to make back up again with the gain stage of the active preamp which also will increase the noise factor by the gain amount of that gain stage.
Nelson Pass: on active preamps.
" We’ve got
lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At
least 10 db more.
Think
of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o’clock,
you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain
stage can make it back up."
So get rid of that output gain stage (you end up with a passive) and utilise all of what the source can give out, instead of throwing away half of it so the preamps output gain stage can make it back up.
Cheers George
|
If a power amp has an input sensitivity of say 1v input to make it reach full wattage output (eg: clipping) There is no need for the preceding stage (whether it be a preamp or direct from the source) to put out any more than say 2v so long as it's clean.
Having the ability to put out 30v instead of the 2v, and said to sound better because of it!, is a total furphy by the one who said it.
Cheers George
|
Who said all these sources or preamps are running non linear, stop making things up out of nothing. |
@mrdecibel
Simply: With the sources feeding them, preamps active or passive giving out UP TO a clean 2v to an amp that only needs 1v in to give it’s rated output before clipping, there NO USE at all for those same preamps active or passive to be able to give 10v 20v or 30v output.
Cheers George |
If you have 2v from the source and your amp clips at 1v there is absolutely NO ADVANTAGE in having 4v from the source.
Don't let anyone no matter who they are tell you the 4v or 6v will give extra headroom or dynamics, it is a falsehood.
Cheers George
|
Now you confuse me by saying (7/25): Now we’re looking at what the Oppo can drive We were before just taking about just about match between passives and amps. Now we are talking with the Oppo and what it is able to drive, and in a (non active) but passive situation that will be the paralleled combination of the passives input impedance and the amps input impedance together. As all the Oppo sees, is "like" two paralleled resistors to ground, one being the passive the other being the amp. Throw and active preamp into the mix and forget about the amps impedance, all the Oppo sees is the input resistance of the active, it can’t see the amp impedance. Cheers George |
Correct MrD, as Nelson Pass says, today we have way to much gain (voltage) with the sources we have.
That’s why if you can do it with the source that has a volume control, go direct from source to poweramp.
If no volume control put one there "a passive" so long as the impedance’s are right, and in most cases they are.
Cheers George |
tweak1 OP622 posts07-26-2018 3:09amFYI, Oppo 105 output impedance is 100 ohms. Is the Hattor still a mismatch with the AA amp? Now we’re looking at what the Oppo can drive I don’t know the impedance of your Hattor or is attenuation method, series, ladder or shunt. For simplicity let’s say it’s ladder (the best one), And is say it’s a 17kohm ladder passive this impedance combined (paralleled) with the 17kohm impedance of your AA becomes half, at 8.5kohm that the Oppo will see, this to me a still good impedance for it to looking at. You can see "if" the Oppo is 100ohms from 20hz to 20khz then the ratio into the 8.5kohm combination Hattor/AA is 1:85. BUT!!! see that "if" the Oppo could have an output coupling cap, an if not large enough will make that 100ohm impedance rise in the bass and then your 1:85 ratio quickly diminishes which could roll off the bass to early. Cheers George |
tweak1 OP
but I managed to score a AA Dac/Pre
Just remember if this dac/pre has it's volume control operating in the digital domain like most do. So you don't loose resolution, "bit striping" it's volume control should be used at or above 75% of full volume, or you run the risk of only getting 14bit or even less resolution, depending who much below 75% you go. Cheers George |
Fortunately, the combination sounds damned good Later then you could if you want, try from the reports a very good external tube buffer that has a low 150ohm output impedance, that is the new iFi Micro iTube2 tube buffer. I look at at this and see a serious bit of kit, if you like tube sound. And it has it’s own passive volume control should you wish to use it instead, selectable in or out and selectable 0db or 6db gain settings, all done with the dip switches on the bottom. https://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-itube2/Cheers George |
George, your info would be spot on IF the AA did not have 2 gain options
Yeah I saw the 2 x gain options specs, neither will give an input impedance to let your Hattor be good match with it, it just changes the gain. Cheers George |
tweak1 OP
well this could b a case of the specs don't tell the whole story, because it's probably the most authentic sound I've ever experienced in my home
I believe you, as I said to you two posts back, "
Tweak1 It may sound good". But your not hearing the best from it, with that kind of 17kohm input impedance of this amp. An active pre in this case would probably sound better. Cheers George |
tweak1 OP Tweak1 It may sound good, but I don’t want to burst your bubble, you should have asked, if your still using your Hattor passive, you didn’t heed what I said about your EP 100.2 amp being only 19kohm input impedance, and not the best match for your Hattor passive. Now you bought the AA DPA-1 without looking at it’s input impedance, as it’s even lower and more difficult to drive than the EP was, at 17.0 kohm xlr and 10.7 kohms rca, this I hate to tell you it's a worse match for the Hattor than your EP was. You said you were looking at the Nord Two Stereo amp, and I said this was better than the EP, should have stayed with that. You have two options to get the best with what you have. 1:Send your Hattor back and get them to install the optional OPA2134 output buffer in into it, this will allow it then to drive the very low input impedance of the AA or the EP if you still have it. 2: Send the AA back and get a poweramp that has got higher input impedance 33kohm or higher. Cheers George |
1graber2
@georgehifi : in addition to the Schiit you listed above, there now is the Schiit Freya PreAmp: its a real "swinger": can play as
1. Passive Pre
2. Active Pre with tubes
3. JFET buffer
Yes I know, if you look at my posts going back for the last year, I think I'm probably the strongest promoter of the Freya for 3 in one preamp at a steel of a price. Cheers George |
No they have not. What in you imagination could make them offer less then they do You have not referenced your statement to any post, so it means nothing. BUT IF it is to the post above yours, then I’m afraid you clearly have no idea what talking about. Cheers George |
Scratching my head as George said my Hattor is not compatible impedance wise
It’s not the fault of your Hator, it’s the amp that is only 19kohm input impedance, even the Khozmo is not compatible. They (Hattor& Khozmo) would both have to be 1-2kohm pots to be compatible with 19kohm, then the source would have trouble driving into that 1-2kohms. Cheers George |
tweak1 OP
I have been keen on getting a Nord Two Stereo amp, but need to sell at least one SE first
This will be great with your
Hattor Passive Pre and much better. As the Nord is double the input impedance of the
Emerald Phyics no need for a buffer then. I always say the best buffer is no buffer if possible. Cheers George |
tweak1 OP
My EP KC IIs sound fantastic Actually hate to say, your Emerald Phyics EP-100.2SE Class-D amps are not a great match for a passive pre, as their input impedance is "not typical" as they are very low at 19kohm, your passive preamp while working fine would sound even better if it had a unity gain buffer on it’s output. For a 10kohm passive to work it’s magic the input impedance of an amp/s should be 33kohm or higher. Cheers George |
