Although it is built like a Sherman tank there might be the display and the bulbs on the front which might fail over time.
Just wonder about the fluorescent display, are folk turning this off after adjusting volume etc. This can be set up via menu. Just that it doesn't last very long roughly 30,000 hours, about 3.5 years of continuous use. Over time it will start to dim and need replacing. |
Congratulations on your purchase Nyev.
I’ve just recently took delivery of a 300 without any demos! My speakers are 803D3, I’ve got roughly 2 hours on it. It sings just as you have mentioned above. I’m hearing things from the 803D3 speakers that I haven’t heard before. I’ve been listening at volume 25, it only goes up to 42. I’ve set my safety volume control limited to 32. What volume do you listen at during normal listening?
Don’t worry about power cords, make sure your room acoustics is sorted first. Sort the big elephant in the room before you start tinkering with “snake oil”. I’m playing my source through an Audyssey Pro equaliser, there is a night and day difference in sound. As every sound coming out of the speakers is given equal chance to shine. Maybe try a Dirac processors, you’ll no regret it!
“And no, unfortunately my dealer did not inform me that my demo Gryphon phono board was discontinued”
It might be an issue if you come to sell it (if you ever do), the buyer might be looking for the current version of the phono stage.
“In short, I am enjoying this amp so much that I find myself wanting to buy another just in case something happens to it after it is eventually discontinued”
This amp will last you a life time, don’t worry you’ll be six feet under before you need another one!
“Maybe the D’Agostino Momentum integrated but that is far more expensive.”
Don’t go there! Don’t listen to it if you can’t afford it, you’ll want to buy it! The sound will haunt you forever until you get one- so don’t do it!
“When my Innuos streamer finally arrives (hopefully in early May), I may experiment with a lower end power conditioner”
I’ve tried a power conditioner briefly- Isotek Titan 2, it seems to throttle the dynamics of the 300. I need to have a extensive listen. But from first listen that’s what I’ve experienced. Maybe better on streamer as you have mentioned. I will try there next…
I will investigate the ‘pop’ issue.
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The majority of folk are familiar with the sound they hear from their room and each room holds a unique signature- boomy bass, no bass, too much bass, bright treble, no focus etc. One or more frequencies seem to dominate the frequency spectrum, negating or smearing the rest of them. The sound equaliser helps to balance the sound spectrum by giving each frequency an equal chance to re- produce. It is also a partner friendly device, as putting up acoustic treatment is a no no in majority of living rooms. Audiophiles might disagree and say the purist sound path has to be met, this might be true if you have a ‘perfect room’. But in real life no one does! So losing a bit over gaining mega truck loads is something you can’t overlook. I too was sceptical and dismissed the idea of having anything ‘in- between’, until I discovered true equalisation in the frequency and time domain. They aren’t your bog-standard tone controls or a band equalisers of yester year. This stuff does some mathematics like fourier and laplace transforms behind the scenes. To work out the best response at your seated area.
I’m the kind of guy who will give it to you straight- if a product doesn’t add anything or is rubbish then I will say so. No beating around the bush!
I tried experimenting with connecting my Naim NDX2 directly through the Diablo, but I’ve found it dull and lacking, the stereo imagery, focus, instrument nuance, vocal clarity all go back into the 803D3 speakers. When I connect the processor everything comes to life, each bit of micro detail is heard, in the bass notes you can hear different notes and hear the emotion of the artist plucking them. The bass notes start and stop as they should do, no lingering, ringing, no boom. The artist is in your living room in front of you. You hear things that you have never heard before. It’s like it’s a new system! The difference is night and day. Let me say that again- the difference is night and day! You might say, hold on but I’m already hearing those things. You are hearing a difference from what you had previous but nothing like what you hear when the sound is correctly balanced. Having a balanced sound is what the artist wants you to hear- the way it was recorded is the way it should be re-produced in your living room. Have I got this wrong?
Some people don’t like this as they question about their bass disappearing into the ether. They lose the one tone bass, the thump they use to hear. That’s because that is the type of unbalanced bass they have heard all their life. They are none the wiser, when they are introduced to the REAL sound- the way it’s suppose to be they don’t like it. The bass isn’t lost it’s just that you are hearing the finer grain of bass detail across the bass spectrum. The clarity, the quality, the impact, the impulse, the transients, the notes…
The 803D3 is a step up from the previous version, all depending on how they are set up and what they are fed. They are very critical on source components. If you are looking for a Mike Tyson punch in your chest, this is not what they are about. In terms of clarify / midrange / micro detail they are excellent. If you have room then go for the 800D3, but for my room size I couldn’t fit either 802D3 or the 800D3. Again, these don’t give you the punch in your chest bass.
That’s right you still hear all the bass notes at even lower volume under 10. I’ve taken it to 30 and no higher. Listening at this level is loud, not the kind of loud, that you say turn the damn thing off it’s hurting my ears. Or you start hearing distortion, sound just easily flows out, it’s not fatiguing. You don’t realise that you got it so high until you turn it off. Then you get that ringing in your ears as if you’ve been to a club! This amp is a different beast, you need to hear it to appreciate it. Unlike other amps when you turn the volume up everything gets boosted. With this amp you turn the volume up and you think have I turned it up. Then a loud passage comes in it catches you out, there is no holding back on the amps end. The amp will reproduce it the way it was recorded, if the recording has dynamics then it will give it to you- good and bad.
Maybe the Diablo 120 has been ‘tuned’ differently as it lacks power of the 300, maybe Gryphon think folk will be listening at lower volumes? They have orientated it that way, But I think even if the Diablo 300 had 1000w per channel into 8 ohms, 2000w into 4 ohm, 4000w in 2 ohms. I can live with that too. (:- Having too much power is never enough! Diablo 120 & Diablo 300 aren't the same, meaning 120 isn't a cut down version of the 300.
There is two separate display types used for the display. The main display is fluorescent, it doesn’t tell you the info put down in my previous post in a manual. I did a Google search and that is the estimated time these things last. So I’ve set mine up to go off, after a few seconds. So it lights up when you adjust the volume etc, when it goes off the blue led goes on to indicate. The rest of the display stays at the same brightness. It would be nice if you can adjust the brightness intensity when it comes back on I think it stays at 100%. Also if you can turn off all the lights bar the Gryphon logo in red. The other lights might be filament or led, the blue one is certainly led.
Do you know if there is any documented text to say the amp runs in Class A over so many watts? It certainly runs hot, heats my living room up!
One small niggle I have is why on earth did they make the front fascia out of plastic, for such an expensive amp. Over time it will end up getting scratched. I was looking for a custom screen protector (maybe overkill!).
It’s good we can discuss our experiences here, keep posting!
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Nyev,
It’s not just if you have room acoustical problems, it sorts focus, impulse response, clarity etc. Worth investigating more so than power cords!
Regarding the Class A, I read in a review somewhere that it was biased towards Class A. But I’m not sure if it is Class A over so many watts before moving to A/B. Like PassLab for example, I think it’s 10w for some of them.
You must of went for the "fashion" finish for your B&W speakers. The piano gloss black, I went for the wood finish. The turbine head has those swirl marks from new you are talking about. I took a flash light to inspect them close up. I’ve been cleaning them with a pressured air can and a sponge wringed in distilled water- gently in one direction. This is the best way I have found as using a piano duster scratches the surface. Yours must be a nightmare as your whole speaker is piano gloss black finish. Plus the finger prints, especially guests who are magnetically attracted to touch, a nightmare! If I don’t use my system for a while I cover the speakers so they don’t collect dust.
The other thing I’ve found is my music collection is going from the excellent sounding tracks to the rubbish pile. As the quality flaws of the recording are easily revealed more so than before. I am forever searching for a good engineered / recorded track. The thing is you can tell from the first note that the recording has been compressed or it’s a mass production quick buck type. I’m not a full time Beethoven 5th type of guy, I listen to rock, jazz, classical, dance- house, techno, country, opera, chart. Anything and everything! My palette is extensive, the problem is majority of these recording are compressed to the hilt. They are fantastic for mediocre systems, once you leave a certain point in HiFi it’s just continuous searching. Do audiophiles play the same tracks all the time, the ones that sound the best? This is crazy. Maybe I should sell and go back to where everything sounds fantastic!
Happy listening. |
Nyev, I see, you had no choice then. I've never heard D2s so no idea what the bass response is like. I think you are right, the bass on these speakers isn't what it should be in terms of their relative size. The problem is the drivers they are too small. B&W have tried to compensate by using a large cabinet. Also the drivers are designed differently than the previous generation. Like pistons, it may give a smoother response but not the volume or intensity that is required. I have also found that majority of tracks don't really have the bass that sometimes you might think it has. The Diablo only delivers what is there and nothing else. For example see if you can get a hold of Princes Album- ”Art official cage”. Play the track- ”Art official cage”. Never mind if you don't like Prince, just listen to the bass section. Put the volume up to 23. What do you think? Did it surprise you? Is it intense? What I'm saying is that this album has been recorded better than some of the others. In a good recording things become 3 dimensional. The bass is more profound and has layers. In your D2 it probably sounds even better than what I'm hearing. Maybe I need to upgrade?
Tomcy6, The system is fantastic, I'm happy where I am. The problem is with recording that have been mastered in a studio with lesser equipment. The average punter doesn't have hifi at this level in their living room. They expect that, these recordings are made to be played in low quality gear. In that type of gear I guess everything sounds fantastic. I'm disappointed that there is no industry quality standard. Every recording is at a different quality level. The tracks that do sound good sound amazing. Some tracks / albums are so bad, they end up in the rubbish pile. I do get your point, but I can't go backwards. Once you've heard what I hear you'll always be wanting in a lesser system. I just need to search for good quality recordings. Which might take a long time to build a library. |
Nyev, Slam is what I'm missing, from these speakers. As you have correctly pointed out. They do have excellent midrange and treble and are maybe speakers for a classical connoisseur. Rather than someone who listens to all types of music. The amp is not at fault here, even for not so good recorded tracks it is forgiving. As you have said it does not make them bright or shrilling. They are at least listenable.
I did hear the 803D3 with a Mark Levinson 585 and I was blown away by the bass content it could produce. Playing the ”chain” by fleetwood Mac, I don't get the same with the diablo in my living room. The start of the track, the kick drum. Then I was thinking maybe it was a dominating bass region that was getting amplified by the dealers room acoustics. On my balance system drum is there, but sheer visceral impact / slam is missing. Even if you turn Diablo up, there is no punch in the chest. It does give a very clear presentation without dramatically over emphasising the kick drum. I remember even hearing the 800D3, they had bass but no impact bass.
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Nyev, I do have a B&W DB1 set up in my 5.1 setup. Again if you balance your system the bass does not overwhelm or intrude. I do not listen to a sub in my 2 channel. If I did connect it, it will come in at 120Hz and below. No good for mid bass, maybe ok for a kick drum?
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Nyev,
So I've tried a few things as you have suggested.
The amp and all below is connected direct to the mains, no conditioner in its path.
1) Audyssey Pro processor.
2) Power cod- Wireworld Stratus 52.
3) Naim NDX2
4) Naim 555 PS DR
Room size 5.7m x 3.8m x 2.4m
Volume 27
If I stick to the "Chain" at the moment, when I play it through the processor- micro dynamics, strings definition and bite, bass layers, decay, separation and focus. Is all there clearly- three dimensional image. The string plucking has bite to it, you can hear it getting plucked clearly and the decaying notes too. If I remove the processor, the sound turns flat, it's like if it goes back into the speakers. It is all good with the processor in place, I'm loosing a lot without it. The bass is clearer with definition and notes are projects into the room.
Lets look at the bass
When the track starts the kick drum doesn't have authority, slam, chest hitting punch. I found that with the Mark Levinson 585, but not here. When that tish part ends then silence the impact is missing here. After that the bass comes in, there is bass there but not what I heard with the 585. Even if I turn it louder to 30, everything is clear and no strain or fatigue. But the bass never gives you that kick. it just gets louder, not in your face loudness, it's loud (just difficult to explain if you haven't experienced this before). Nyev you know what I mean when I say it gets loud but not compressed or anything.
I've tried the DB1, it either is un- noticeable when it's integrated and balance with the 803D3 speakers. Or you start hearing it over taking the rest of the sound. It starts to unbalance the sound. It never gives the kick in the chest I heard from the 585.
From this I conclude that Diablo 300 outputs it's power in a different way to the 585. More natural and not in your face type, it doesn't create something that isn't there. The thing is I never got to listen to the 585 at home, even the Diablo 300 was a gamble as I've bought it blindly. As I mentioned in my previous post it could be that the dealers room had an emphasis of that bass region. I was impressed by the 585 amp, my question after a short listen was can I live with this? Then i started doing more research and found out about the Diablo 300, PassLab INT 250. These dealers and amps are so rare in my neck of the woods, I would not be able to listen to one of these amps with my speakers period.
The other thing that could be going on is that the room is sucking my bass impact. I have measured the room and I could not see any 'suck outs' or dips. Maybe I just need more power and bigger drivers to physically move that air. I'm lost!
The Prince track was just to see what the system can do, I don't think this is the best. There is still a lot of potential to be explored and I haven't found a track that will bring out 100% from the system. It was merely for you to see the kind of layered bass that is going on in the background. I had a listen to Billy Eilish, it does pressurise the room. I bet the bass your speakers are producing is a lot different to mine. :-( Your daughter has good taste, I can't believe you let her play music on your system. (:-
You should try this album which has great recording and dynamics-
Breaking Silence- Janis Ian
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Nyev,
I do not doubt the diablo, it is an outstanding amp. It's either the room or my speakers. I did ask Whitecamaros about the 585 he didn't rate it highly. The bit I don't understand is the visceral output at the dealer, the sheer dynamics I experienced with the 803D3 speakers. The slam is totally different compared to Diablo, I don't think it's got the midrange & treble of the diablo. The delivery is different, it still has the- turn the volume up and the ”catch out” of the Diablo.
My room walls / ceiling is plasterboard, the dealers walls were brick. This too can have an impact on absorption and reflection of sound.
The kick drum in the chain will produce the punch in the chest if the conditions are correct (setup, power etc).
As I mentioned in my previous post the two bass drivers are small 6.5 inch? B&W use some jiggery pookery to play about with the bass response in the cabinet. To compensate for these minuscule drivers and to try and shift volume. Physics of it is you need large drivers to shift air and have that impact. Think about the size of drivers used in a concert / club. Together with the power used to move vast amounts of air. I know they don't have the quality and finesse of of an audiophile system. They can easily create the punch in the chest. I've even heard the 800D3 although better bass response can not produce this sort of bass.
My dealer doesn't have the 585 anymore. If I was to order it, I will have to buy it. There will be no home demo & return. The good thing in owning the diablo 300, I can put back in the crate and take to dealers. At least I will have a known quantity to compare with different speakers. Maybe a pair JBL 4355 will do the trick. |
That's a good idea.
I've heard the focal utopia 3 evo when I was buying my 803D3. They lacked the b&w sparkle and the excellent midrange. Other than that they were similar sounding.
In comparison to 803D3 do you think your 803 D2 lack bass impact? If not how much more do you think they have? Are you happy so far with the sound?
I don't want to hi- jack your thread. How is your listening getting on with the Diablo?
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The other thing that has dawned on me is that my speakers might not be run in. As I haven't been listening to the system as much as I should be it's a track here and there. Nothing religiously.
One of the things I like about the amp is how it 'shows' different layers of music without any strain. It is very easy to follow different instruments in the mix. It isn't analytical to a level where you are just analysing the music rather than enjoying it. This is the way amplifiers should sound- truly amazing!
It will be interesting to see if any of the cables you have listed makes a justifiable improvement to warrant a purchase. I've always been sceptical with cables and such. Always thought of these as being the 'icing' on the cake once the rest of things have been sorted. Like speaker placement, positioning, room acoustics- bass traps, first reflective points etc. |
It's no way near 250 hours, I would say about 20 hours if that. I have taken your advice aboard and will run in before any serious listening.
Let us know what you find with cables. I don't fancy spending £1000 plus on a cable. From the consumer unit to the ring main where the mains sockets are connected is regular electrical cable. So I don't see how changing a meter or so from the amp to the wall socket makes a difference. Not forgetting the mains wiring that is in the Diablo, is hardly going to be of the same quality. Every component is made to a budget, even the Diablo 300. The inside mains wiring isn't going to be a high priority for the designer. Unless I re- wire from the power generator all the way to my house with the same quality cable. If noise is generated on other parts of the ring main then that noise is going to go through the supply voltage into the Diablo. Be it RF or DC might not infiltrate over this meter of wire but certainly will do on the rest of the cable in the property. I totally need convincing on this subject, so look forward to your findings. Even speaker cables, the quality of the wiring for example in the B&W 803D3 from the speaker posts to the cross over is not going to be anything out of the ordinary. So why spending thousands of pounds? Why not just source the same cable used inside the speaker and wire it externally too? Sorry but I don't get it.
Have a listen to-
Nils Lofgren- Keith don't go (the acoustic live version)
The strings are fantastic on this, let me know what you think? |
Nyev,
Just read your post on cables, ouch, ouch, ouch! Nordost Valhalla 2 - £4,100 for a 1m mains lead! If I went for 2m which I need. That is £4900, £100 less than my Naim NDX2! No way, I don't care how good it sounds, I refuse to pay that much for a piece of copper wire. The profit margin on this must be astronomical, I wouldn't be surprised if it's 90% - 95%! This is crazy!
Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt your findings. I can't pay that for a cable period. Day light robbery! These companies are taking people for mugs! Just did a search on the auction site and there is one going for £1550 used plus £10 postage.
My solution is to create your own, buy some heavy gauge twisted pair cable and just add the plugs of your choice. It's not rocket science to make, the only thing is the sound, would it sounds as good? Who knows, but it's worth a try! |
Nyev,
I take your point and will see for myself if the difference in cables is justified. That I will do once my components have run in.
But I think you are missing the biggest upgrade you will make by sorting your room out. I know you have mentioned that you do not have a problem with your room. That is what I thought, as you can tell from my cable scepticism. It was not until I tried it out and thought- Oh my God! I’m not kidding the difference is phenomenal. If I compare it to what you have said in terms of the cable improvements you have had, I would say it’s 100 times that. For a lot less cost than what your paying for your cables. The cost per performance ratio = value for money, that my friend is what you get. No BS here. This is what majority of ‘Hifi dream chasers’ miss out on, they end up buying a new component and think this will sort things. It might give a different sound but the overall potential is never realised and until room correction is made. If I was to list in terms of ranking where cables come in, it will be as below- 1) Speakers 2) Amplification 3) Source 4) Room acoustics 5) Speaker, component - Isolation 6) Mains 7) cables Not everyone tackles it like that, some folk are stuck on 1, 2 and 3. They keep going round and round in this cycle. It just makes dealers happy as they keep coming back, spending more. Can you imagine a professional studio mixing a record without any treatment or proper speaker set up? The technician might hear less bass where he increases it by 30 dB, thinking it’s correct. When you come to hear it in your room it might be so much bass that overwhelms the track. Putting the track out of balance. Each studios mix will be so different, the consumer will be so disappointed on the results as each will have something more or less. Thank god they have some standards, although not all artists care about recording quality or caters for audiophile folk who have very expensive systems. There is differences in quality of recordings as you can tell from playing a CD to a hi- res track etc. My advise to you will be sort your room before you squeeze that very expensive cable trigger, as you’ll know look back. At a later date go for the cables to squeeze that last ounce of performance from your system. Regarding manufacture costs and dealer margins, these are excessive when it comes to luxury HiFi. The Gryphon DAC module retails near £5000 in the UK, the amp is £13600 without any of the options. Now I ask how much do you think out of these is dealer margin? What is manufacture cost? I’ll not be surprised if the dealer isn’t taking a fat chunk out of these costs. The electronic components in these are manufactured in the far east at extremely low prices. Yes of course research and development and local labour charge is premium. That’s the state of the market, if the consumer will pay it why ask for less? I’m thinking £3500 to manufacture the Diablo 300 or maybe less? |
Mikeyaya,
No need to keep it on all the time, it takes 45m to reach quiescent temperature.
Idle it consumes 200w, it does get hot to touch. Can heat my room up, ok for the winter.
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Not to worry I can advise as I have been through a similar exercise. This is what it's all about sharing knowledge and helping each other. (:- My room correction consists of some material on the walls, ceiling, bass traps. The more you can get away with (partner dependent) by sorting this way the better. That means the electronic side of things can use its resource to fix problems that the acoustic material can not sort. Audyssey don't make my pro processor anymore. The good thing with this processor is that I can measure 32 different points around my seated position. Or I can set up different zones. I'm going to split it into 2 zones. One for my serious listening with Diablo (2 channel) and the other for my 5.1 setup. In both cases correction is applied. Things to look at- 1) Minidsp- For electronic room correction, uses Dirac live for room correction. https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd-series 2) For room measurement, use the minidsp umik-1 microphone Download software for free- https://www.roomeqwizard.com/3) Room treatment, many available- https://www.gikacoustics.com/basics-room-setup-acoustic-panels-bass-traps/https://www.vicoustic.com/The above two even help with what to apply where. If you send them a plan of your layout. Hope this helps. "
The difference with the cables was WAY beyond what I'd call squeezing the last performance out of my system.
" I think you need to keep this in context, I meant in comparison to room correction. Are you not going to get two sets of speaker wire to bi- wire the B&W speakers? I'm using two sets, at the Diablo end they connect to one set of terminals. I'm not sure if this makes a difference, as I've never used the jumpers. |
davidz, welcome to the club!
It's not like a normal amp as you have gathered. When quite pieces are playing you end up turning it, only to be caught out by a loud parts. You can even play low quality music through it and even those tracks are listenable, unlike other amps. It never ever sounds harsh or clinical, it has a warm organic analogue sound to it.
What volume you listening at? What's your other components? |
dpac996- It’s difficult to describe the 300 sound, It will be best for you to experience for yourself. It does have good power to drive any speaker. The main question here is would it drive it to your liking. That is a difficult question to answer, I’ve never heard PassLab or 509x.
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Did everyone get the plastic polish included with their amp? So with the accessories-
1) 1 pair of white gloves
2) Manual
3) Remote control
4) Power cord
5) blue cleaning cloth
6) Plastic Polish in a small glass tub?
Did everyone get the plastic polish? |
I didn't receive the polish either, just wondering if Gryphon forgot to put a tub in the box. I saw it in a few reviews, just got me thinking. |
