Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@thyname , I didn’t mean to imply the Innuos sounds fuller in tone or body; I meant a fuller soundstage depth. But now that I think about it, the Innuos is slightly fuller in body. The MU1 is by no means lean in tone however. It’s got a very even balance to my ears and things definitely don’t sound leaner or brighter with the MU1.

important to re-emphasize just how basic my cabling is right now - I have the cheapest possible AES cable (with the MU1) and balanced interconnects in my system currently, and will be about to go to the other end of the spectrum in a few weeks. With my Innuos gear I have my Audioquest Diamond USB cables which I’ve found to be fantastically transparent with great depth and I found to be great value compared with far more expensive cables (Nordost Valhalla 2 for example). So, currently my Innuos gear has an advantage over my MU1 in my system I think. The new interconnects will add depth and separation too so I think things will change dramatically for both Innuos and the MU1 when these cables arrive.

The ONLY thing that bugs me slightly about the MU1’s sound - and I really think I should probably be saying what bugs me about my really old basic Cardas AES cable’s sound - is that the soundstage depth doesn’t totally sound consistent / even / linear compared with Innuos / Audioquest Diamond. I notice this the most with vocals.  Could be that my speakers need some placement/toe-in adjustment as well.

 

Updates! First, I fixed my MU1’s hard disk myself. After Eelco mentioned in his note that the issue may be related to the hard disk’s USB connection not being connected, I thought that would be the simplest thing to fix. So tonight (while watching M3gan with my daughter, so I desperately needed something to do while enduring that pain…) I opened the chassis, and sure enough, the USB connector wasn’t inserted in the PCB’s port. Plugged it in and problem solved. And I got to check out the inside of the MU1 and snapped some pics of the PCB’s and cabling.

Second, I disabled the MU1’s volume control. I don’t know if this has a positive impact on sound quality, as it apparently does with some DACs.

Third, I toed in my speakers quite a bit more.

The results are breathtaking. Everything on the MU1 sounds absolutely perfect now. Soundstage depth is full, even and natural now. And vocals are spectacular and intimate. Like a “window into the recording studio” as some have said. The level of of precision is stunning. I think Innuos still has a more full body but this is bloom which is not as realistic. The 4X OS is more noticeable over NOS now - but still more subtle than I expected. It’s as if some barriers are removed and everything becomes ever so slightly more free and extended. I hear it in the upper mids and treble the most - becomes sweeter and more free sounding. Punk and grunge music with blaring guitars sound absolutely vicious in such a good way. All this detail and it’s really the opposite of fatiguing.

Tonal balance on my overall system sounds great - overall full balance with lots of bass that is so, so well defined and controlled, and as I mentioned before the impact and slam is just way more solid than my Innuos setup at all frequencies. Price point wise, not factoring the added cables, the Zenith Mk3 and PhoenixUSB cost a bit less than the MU1. But the MU1 still costs less than an Innuos Statement (non Next-Gen).

Another thing. As I mentioned I’ve been having issues with poor quality power lately. Yesterday around dinner time was the absolute worst I’ve ever heard - everything became a soft spongy mess while I had my Innuos gear running. Not enjoyable to listen to. Switched it over the MU1, and it sounded like music again. There was enough separation and impact that the MU1 was able to cobble together a coherent musical presentation with a worst case poor quality power scenario.

I think the speaker placement adjustment made a huge difference. Was needed to deal with all the extra detail that is coming through now.

Pretty happy with the MU1 at this point! The detail and impulse control reminds me of what is more easily achieved with an excellent headphone setup. Which is not easy for a full system to be able to do. And most importantly it’s very, very musical -  however you want to define that.  For me it means it sounds like people making music that conveys emotion and a feeling, as opposed to a HiFi system. Not dry/cold/analytical/lean at all!

 

 

 

@snopro just listened to those two Dan Patlansky songs (Hallelujah and Big Things Going Down). You are right, the texture and grit makes it sound so realistic. I’d say it sounds like the guitar is here in my listening room if it wasn’t for the reverb or ambience in the recording.  Good chill music for late night.

@snopro thanks for the tip I will check out those songs on that Dan Patlansky album. In general the texture and sizzle of electric guitars is more alive sounding than I’ve heard on a full system before.

@rockrider , yes this update is with my basic interim cables still. I’ve since moved my speakers slightly apart and the sound has become bigger in scale with even more depth and dimension. As good as it was before it’s sounding even better now.

I really respect Innuos a lot and don’t want to make it seem like Grimm is good and Innuos is not, because that’s not the case. The Innuos setup has a charm to it that the Grimm doesn’t have. With the Tambaqui, Innuos is very clean and smooth, but with a large-scale overall presentation, and again that forward presentation of the mid and upper ranges. Presence.  Yes, that’s it! The Innuos setup does exceptionally well with presence, ambience, and scale.

But while the MU1 may not have these qualities quite to the same degree, it heads in a totally different direction - stunning detail, tangibility, solidity, impact, and music that is totally alive and captivating with more athletic drive to it. And I get more of a feeling of people playing music as opposed to listening to reproduced music.

A few posts ago I mentioned that eighties albums (like Bowie’s) that have a narrower presentation of vocals sounded even narrower with the Tambaqui. This was when driven by Innuos. With the MU1 and the Tambaqui, that problem is non-existent and Bowie sounds natural (or at least as natural as Bowie can sound…) One track that accentuates this is Bowie’s “Panic in Detroit”. Vocals sound free and not constrained to a narrow presentation, and wow the bite and snarl on the guitars are just incredible, especially with the dual distorted guitar tracks on the left and right through the outro.

I don’t think the Tambaqui and MU1 are going to be liked by everybody and it’s going to be system dependent. If the rest of my system was neutral, I possibly may have found the Tambaqui/MU1 too lean. But my Diablo 300 adds a richness without losing detail that is just right for me. There is a rawness that I just absolutely love, but some may prefer a smoother less textured presentation like what the Innuos does. Don’t get me wrong when I say raw I don’t mean harsh, not by a longsshot. I mean that the detail and texture is fully intact. But the presentation is so relaxed and unforced yet hard-hitting at the same time, and this makes it all so easy to listen to for hours on end. If you are a whisky drinker, it’s sort of like some who prefer Johnnie Walker Blue with some ice and love that it is “smooth”, vs others who prefer a well-aged single malt that is packed with character, unchill-filtered and bottled at cask strength, with no ice and just a few drops of room temperature water. If you are into whisky you know what I mean. Both styles are valid and cater to a different audience. Also to be clear I don’t mean to compare Innuos with Johnnie Walker Blue, that would be unfair to Innuos, lol…. Innuos has far more going on than that. But it’s a good example to explain the distinction.

At this point for me I don’t think there is any ambiguity as to my preference but I’ll give it a few weeks and go back to Innuos to be sure.

And to reiterate - all this is with my interim, lowest level basic AES cable and balanced interconnects. So things will likely shift dramatically again when that changes in a few weeks.

 

 

@arafiq , I still have my Innuos gear and I’m not planning to part with it anytime soon. I’m still planning on trying the tweak with the SR fuse for sure!

With the MU1 (likely hobbled by interim very basic cables) I am missing some of the low end fullness and smoothness of the Innuos, and yes some depth too, but at the same time I can’t unhear the level of detail, tangibility, energy and drive the MU1 serves up! Based on my research I am pretty sure that my interconnects I have on order will add the overall tonal qualities of the Innuos that I like to the MU1, in addition to the smoothness and depth.

Maybe the SR fuse will add the detail, tangibility, solidity and energy I’m missing to my Innuos gear… With the cables and the fuse being massive variables, maybe this race isn’t decided quite yet!

@arafiq would you be able to remind me what SR fuse the Zenith Mk3 needs? I will order one.

 

 

@rrohland , thank you, ordering one today….

Thanks @svenjosh. @fastfreight or anyone else - anyone tried replacing the MU1’s fuse?

It seemed I was liking the MU1 slightly less but then I tweaked my speaker positioning again, by the slightest bit, and the slightest soundstage issues were again corrected. For me when it clicks, it’s like the vocals just turn into an actual 3D person. I think that is one thing to know when adding this much detail to your system - your speaker placement just has to be that much more dialed in. At least that’s what I’ve found!

Went back to Innuos and it definitely sounds very nice! Big, expansive, scale, presence, dimension, but also less detail and far softer impact vs the MU1.

It’s interesting, I now realize at the start of my journey my Innuos gear was not the weak point in my digital chain. It was my Diablo 300 DAC module, which won’t be a surprise to some. The Tambaqui was the big step up, as you’d expect comparing the costs. The MU1 is a step up as well, but ultimately I can see some just “liking” the Innuos sound. I think it’s a matter of preference at this point. And my preference is the MU1 in my systems current state! It’s given life and energy to albums I was previously somewhat apathetic to, which is great.

Can’t wait to see how the fuse and cables change things.

@lalitk , well stated.  All of those diminishing returns can add up to something special.

To be clear, I wouldn’t say the Merason DAC-1 performed better than the Diablo 300 DAC module.  It simply had a different, more neutral presentation that I preferred.  The Tambaqui actually did perform better than the other two DACs, but it should at twice the cost.  Between the DAC1 and the Tambaqui, which do I  like better?  It’s actually pretty close, even though they have totally different presentations.  The DAC1 is a no-fuss, inviting, engaging DAC that I think most would enjoy.  The Tambaqui adds detail and transparency though out the frequency band, but somehow is not bright or lean in my system and is musically engaging and maintains excellent coherence through complex musical passages.

My MU1 just got better. For the first time I tried removing the Innuos PhoenixNET from the chain and connecting the MU1 straight to my wall’s Ethernet outlet. Wow! Things got a bit cleaner, less restrained, a tad fuller and more immediate. And now it’s got a bit more of that presence I noted my Innuos gear does well.

The PhoenixNET really seems to help in some configurations (and when it does the effect is magical…). But maybe the MU1 is doing enough on the Ethernet input already? Anyone know what features the MU1 incorporates that may cause the PhoenixNET to be redundant?

Down two boxes now lol (no external reclocker and no Ethernet isolation/regeneration switch)!

In the manual Grimm says to please don’t use specialty “audio” Ethernet cables with “claimed benefits”. I know it’s typical for vendors to use generic power cords, but I thought this was interesting. I’m using an Audioquest Diamond Ethernet cable. At some point I’ll compare with a standard Ethernet cable.

@lalitk thanks for the tip on the network filter. Doing some more testing, I would disagree with Grimm’s position that high end audio network cables shouldn’t be used. I would also disagree with the notion that the MU1 is “immune” to things like Ethernet switches.

I tried switching to an Amazon network cable. At first I thought it sounded better than my Audioquest Diamond Ethernet cable. Vocals were better formed and clearer. But very quickly I realized almost all instrumentation was reduced to being thin and 2 dimensional. Actually a big difference. It’s funny how almost all HiFi gear companies say not to use fancy power cords and in this case network cables.

With the PhoenixNET I tried going back to it a few times to further analyze the differences. I realized that the focus and control may be improved with it, however paired with the MU1 it adds a sense of controlled restraint to the sound, and vocals and mids become slightly recessed and the sense of scale is reduced. In short I think it’s not that the MU1 is “immune” but rather that the PhoenixNET is simply not a good pairing. I think the PhoenixNET would do wonders for anyone struggling with “hot” or harsh mid and upper frequencies in their system.

@lalitk , yeah I wasn’t expecting to be able to go back to a generic Ethernet cable, rather, I was simply curious to put Grimm’s advice not to use an audio network cable with the MU1 to the test. It would be wonderful if manufacturer’s statements not to bother with such cables or power cords were true! It also makes me wonder how they can make such statements when the benefits and differences are so obvious.

A small correction on what you said about the PhoenixNET. Both Innuos and Statement owners say the PhoenixNET boosts the Statement despite the Statement including Ethernet filtering or reclocking (not sure which). It’s the PhoenixUSB reclocker that is redundant when using the Statement. Innuos always includes a PhoenixNET when demoing the Statement too (but with noPhoenixUSB). I also see in other forums many, many people using the PhoenixNET with non-Innuos gear and claiming positive results. I think it just has to be well matched from a sound character perspective (would work well I think in systems that could do with some smoothness and taming). Of course, with Innuos it’s going to fit like a glove, but I have my doubts that it is only good with Innuos.

I will definitely follow up on the Muon. Looked it up already. It makes me happy that no power cord is needed! I hate dealing with cords and stressing over crisscrossing them etc, and having to dust all around them! One question - I see it comes with an Ethernet cable. Do you recommend using the cable it comes with over and above other high end cables (like my Audioquest Diamond)?

Thanks @lalitk , will go with the Muon Pro kit including cable (will order in a few weeks). As I me mentioned while my AQ Diamond was clearly better overall than a generic cable, it was slightly troubling that there was no question that vocals were clearer and better defined with the generic cable. So I’m looking forward to trying the Muon with a different cable.

And regarding the PhoenixNET I agree it’s about system synergy for sure :)

@thyname, I meant I’m looking forward to trying the Network Acoustics cable in place of my current Audioquest Diamond cable which I find to be vastly superior to generic network cables, except in the case of vocals where I find the generic cable wins.  That’s why I am looking forward to trying something else other than my AQ cable :)

@thyname , no worries. Will continue sharing; in return I receive great advice or inspiration, as with the recent case of the Muon Pro kit. I will wait a few weeks to go down that road as I am still getting to know the MU1 with the Tambaqui. This setup takes a lot more work as I mentioned with speaker positioning. Just when I think I have it as dialed in as it can be, I mark the floor and make the smallest adjustment, and sometimes it gets worse but I’m still finding some adjustments are still improving things. Managed to improve the focus yet again just a few hours ago by toeing in even more and bringing the speaker’s forward a few millimetres. Can’t recommend Herbie’s Audio Spike Decoupling Sliders enough. They provide an unreasonable boost in scale and separation AND they make speaker adjustments a cinch if you have hard floors. And these adjustments are tiny…. But yeah I have enough to deal with currently but the Muon, and fuses will be the next step after cables.

Thankfully I’ve managed to add these pieces without too much expense - the MU1 just prior to the significant price increase, and the Tambaqui I was able to purchase used for what I think was quite a good price.  And if it all works out (I think it will) I’ll get to eventually sell my three Innuos devices and a power cable and two USB cables.  Would actually like to keep both of the Phoenix devices in case I ever have a use for them, but can’t justify that.

@lalitk , very interesting suggestion; I will look for that album, thanks.

@rshad0000 , great to hear you are testing the MU1 with the Dave and also testing the N20! Very interesting. Any insights yet on the differences you found between the MU1 and the N20?

While I’ve heard some say Dave can be a tad analytical with some material, I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s not at all the case with the MU1, or the N20 for that matter. My guess is Dave has a touch more detail than the Tambaqui.

As an aside I rearranged my shelf this evening and reorganized my cabling, this time with exceptional care. I really think my system sounds different now, in a good way. I think the mids got better.

I’m not a jazz guy but right now I’m listening to the epic London Brew, a loose modern interpretation of Miles Davis’ classic, and it’s fantastic….

@rshad0000 , thanks for sharing! Good luck with your decision. I know what you mean about the added texture. In my system at least, the MU1 has more impact and edge to the sound vs the N20, while at the same time being smooth. As an example this gives electric guitars some “sizzle” and makes them come alive more.

One thing I found going back to Roon was that the selection of music it plays after you play your specifically chosen music is fantastic. I find this is best when listening to music that is maybe a bit unusual for my tastes, in those cases Roon has introduced me to some great music I’ve never heard of before.

I’m happy with the Tambaqui but would love to hear the Dave.  Maybe one day I’ll hear a Dave in my system and you will hear a Tambaqui.  

One thing I’m planning on doing when the dust settles is removing the DAC module from my Diablo 300.  I originally installed it myself with the blessing of my Gryphon dealer.  Not sure if it will make a difference, it may not, but digital devices are known to be electrically noisy and it’s possible some of that noise is being fed back into the Diablo’s power supply.  I figure why not try.

Thanks all for the guidance on the Muon filter and also on fuses.

My dealer said they’d get a quote on the Purple fuse for my Zenith, but I haven’t heard back.  I’ll give them a nudge. 

I’d like to try adding Purple fuses to my Diablo amp, Tambaqui, and even the MU1 as well, eventually.  What is the general guideline for what fuse specs to choose?  I know there is a lot of info on this on the boards already but I also don’t want to be the guy that keeps blowing very expensive fuses (or alternatively damaging my gear)…  I think the MU1 uses a fast-blow fuse.  Does that mean I should pick a fast-blow?  What about the current rating - how much higher should it be than the default fuse installed in the component?

 

@grannyring , thanks, I’ve seen that link from Innuos and am clear what to get; I’m more wondering what to try for my other stuff (one at a time though). I can guess it may be hard to get Gryphon to provide a recommendation of a aftermarket fuse for my Diablo amp, as I’m fairly certain they will just say not to do that. Could be the same with Mola Mola and Grimm too.

Great to see this thread generating some awareness of the MU1 and also now the Muon filter too!

I’m planning to switch back to my Innuos gear this weekend, for the sake of comparing and contrasting. I have to say that even if I end up preferring the MU1, which I expect will be the case (pending the expected positive impact of the Purple Fuse on my Zenith which may change things?), my overall opinion of Innuos has only increased, as I now have an understanding of what the three Innuos boxes do very well together. Before, I had no perspective other than the Mac Mini I was using earlier than 2019.

I have a soft spot for Innuos now that I didn’t have before. The sound is wide open, super-relaxed, highly dimensional with upper mids and high frequencies “popping out” holographically, with an emphasis on lower end fullness and upper mids and high frequencies. Altogether it’s a very welcoming and easy to listen to sound. In many ways the MU1 is a bit of the inverse - pace seems faster, more snap and solidity to the sound, more texture, more detail, more clarity, more precision, more focus, and absolutely no bloom. The MU1 is far more “to the point”.  Ultimately through cabling, the Muon filter, and a bit of other tweakery I am aiming to get a bit of the Innuos’ fullness and enveloping dimensionality in the MU1 along side all of its excellent qualities. But we’ll see what that Purple Fuse does with the Innuos Zenith!l Mk3!  As an aside, it occurred to me that how I have described the Innuos sound is similar to how I’ve seen others describe the Antipodes K50.  That makes me very curious as to how the K50 would compare.  But unfortunately I don’t think I’ll get to go that far with this particular journey, as much as I’d like to!  If I had a trusted friend with a K50 I’d offer to swap with the MU1 for a a few weeks.  Sadly I have no such friend with a K50!

In comparison I found the Aurender N20 to be “closed in” sounding on the top end - ultimately I was a bit disappointed in the N20 but that is probably just my system/room/ears. I know a lot of people love the N20. I do recall it had an insane degree of tonal density and saturation which made the sound very tangible, as well as this inky blackness effect which I would compare to the effect of conditioners. So it definitely had some great qualities. I know I may have loved it with the addition of a master clock, as it’s one of the few streamers that have a clock input. But for me it was hard to go down that path when I couldn’t figure out a way to be happy with its “base” sound.

 

 

@peter_s I do not hear a difference when using fixed vs variable volume on the MU1.  But that said I’ve been using it with the volume control disabled.  I’m going to look up that statement you referenced in the manual - what page/section is it in?

Pictures here!

Note I plan to do something more elegant about the TV at some point.  Will also be getting floor to ceiling acoustic panels for behind my speakers soon.  If the MU1’s screen looks funny it’s because I’ve not removed the cellophane screen protector yet!

My three Innuos boxes are on the top shelf with my Diablo.  Hard to believe that the single, very lightweight MU1 can replace the three Innuos boxes (and corresponding cables) and at the same time sound even better, at less overall cost….

@svenjosh not surprised the Odin 2 is better than the Omega. Isn’t it an order of magnitude more expensive than the Shunyata, if I’m not mistaken? I think anything from the Odin 2 loom is going to be near “the best”.  Thanks for sharing your findings.

I once tested a Valhalla 2 USB and found it was definitely better than my Audioquest Diamond. But the difference to me was small and maybe worth half the asking price, and I ultimately felt I enjoyed the sound from the far less expensive Diamond just as much.

Very interested to see if you think the lower cost Sablon beats the Omega though, as a few have found this to be the case. I noticed there is a used 1m Sablon currently for sale. However after my experience finding a 2m Valhalla 2 USB cable sounding far, far better than a 1m equivalent, I started heeding Nordost’s guidance for minimum cable lengths. They say digital cables should be a minimum of 1.5m. I might have sprung for the used Sablon if it was 1.5m.

So I switched back over to Innuos (Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB + PhoenixNET) from my MU1, yes three boxes instead of one, and have a few new insights after a day of listening, that maybe change some of my initial findings. Previously I had called the Innuos setup more open sounding, and I had said the MU1 has far more detail, among other findings as well.

These two particular findings remain valid, but I discovered the underlying reasons for them. With my Innuos setup there is a dip in the lower midrange frequencies that has now become obvious. This actually creates a sense of relaxed ease to the Innuos sound, and makes the sound seem to be more open as the upper mids and higher frequencies are more forward as a result. It also makes the lower frequencies seem to be fuller sounding as those frequencies also stand out more. While this effect creates a relaxed sound that is easy to listen to, because the lower mid frequencies are softer, these pleasing attributes come at the expense of softening the detail in this particular lower-mid frequency band. This is why I noted that electric (and other) guitars stand out more with the MU1.

The MU1 may be a hair more “precise” when it comes to eliminating any sort of bloom, and adding more texture, but my Innuos setup is surprisingly not that far off.

The biggest distinction other than the tonal balance difference I noted is just how driving and propulsive the MU1 is vs the Innuos setup which is gentle and laid back in comparison (but highly precise). I notice this effect most on how energetic the MU1 presents kick-drums and bass with a propulsive drive, vs the Innuos presentation where these elements are presented in a more gentle, relaxed manner while still being refined and precise.

Ultimately I’m still favouring the MU1, with its higher energy delivery with mostly equal performance or a hair better (with sonic presentation differences however) in a single box. Again this is prior to the fuse tweak for Innuos and prior to changing out my cables which I’m still waiting on!

 

 

“waiting to try the Sablon this weekend and Jorma next week”

@svenjosh how are you able to trial those three excellent cables in such short order? Mark at Sablon told me he couldn’t do a demo or return privileges at least with the 1.5m AES cable I had required, and I don’t believe his stuff is carried in shops. For the Jorma, where are you getting that cable from? The Cable Co?

Really looking forward to hearing the results of your testing, that is a dream selection to demo! That said I think you are tainted by starting with Odin 2 - would have been best to end with that one! :) I would put the Odin 2 in the category of “don’t listen because I won’t be happy with anything else after hearing it.” Please no more talk of “addictive air and transparency..”!!!! ;)

@sdl4, the lower midrange dip in my Innuos gear is based purely on my subjective comparison listening to the Grimm MU1 which I also have on hand. With the MU1, sounds in this band (like guitars) are far more forward and as a result the related details are more audible than with Innuos. And with Innuos bass, upper mid and higher frequencies are more forward and pronounced. I’ve owned my Innuos gear since 2019 and had not noted this dip, until directly contrasting with the Grimm MU1 which is, at least according to pro reviewers (Christiaan at HiFi Advice for example) for what it’s worth, highly neutral. Of note Stereophile’s review of the Innuos Statement noted that it was warm. I’m curious if this is related to then frequency response profile that I perceived (to be clear my Innuos gear is not the Statement, but the combination of the Zenith Mk 2, PhoenixUSB and PhoenixNET. To be very clear, I don’t consider this to be a drawback of Innuos. In fact it’s an extremely pleasant effect (at the cost of making some of the midrange detail less audible).

@fastfreight , @sdl4 there is a cable difference for sure, which I have thought about. I am temporarily using a very low end Cardas AES cable on the MU1 (the old green Cardas AES cable, not the current one. With my Innuos setup I have Audioquest Diamond USB cables. I did try swapping out the Diamond USB cables with generic USB cables and I still noticed the same tonal differences between Innuos and the MU1 (but the Innuos sound became inferior in other ways).

@sdl4 I agree it’s likely that both have fairly neutral measured frequency responses. Our ears are very sensitive to tiny changes in tonal balance which has a massive impact on how we perceive a piece of equipment. Maybe “smooth” is not as good as “relaxed” to describe what I perceive with Innuos vs the MU1. Because it’s all relative, the bass, upper mids and high frequencies “pop out” in a very pleasing way with Innuos, and the upper end detail is so easy to hear. Again, and the expense of the “meatier” tones of the midrange which are not as easy to hear with detail. Because of this, I think that things like electric guitars sound smoother with less texture and detail in the body of the tone. Of note this difference in tonal balance is the most profound of the differences I hear between Innuos and Grimm. The next biggest difference is the more gentle delivery of Innuos vs the more propulsive and energetic presentation of the MU1.  And lastly the smallest difference I hear is the bit of added texture, focus and detail that the MU1 offers over my Innuos setup.  But these last differences are far smaller than I originally had thought as I was getting them conflated with the tonal balance differences at first.

@lalitk , cool you met Eelco! Since he’s referenced this thread to me I would have asked him if sales of MU1’s are up because of it, just out of curiosity! You should also have asked him about the details of the next firmware release - I think you in particular would be very interested in the major new features than are coming. Eelco asked me not to share these details online since it’s still possible these features may have issues in testing.

 

“I have Nordost Odin2 for the rest of my system”

@svenjosh in that case I’m pretty sure I know which AES cable will win your shootout :)

Nevertheless, let us know how your testing with the Sablon and Jorma go!

The 1.5m minimum for digital cables is supposedly required to account for something to do with the synchronization between source and destination.  At least with USB cables, if you look it up you’ll find people talk about “reflections”.  I’ve not attempted to understand it; I’ve just noted the really big improvement when you go from a 1m USB to 1.5m or 2m.  Mark at Sablon told me he had heard this too.

Just bought a LinkUp Ethernet cable because at that price, why not….  Will see how it compares with my Audioquest Diamond cable which costs more than 10X more…

I spent a couple of hours this Saturday testing the effect of Herbie’s Audio Lab Tenderfeet with the MU1.  I find these don’t work well with all components, but when they work, they REALLY work…  More separation, cleaner vocals, more coherent high frequencies.  But the thing I find you have to be careful of, is that while they almost add positive benefits, sometimes they also can take away something from a particular component.

With the MU1 I’m confident that the benefit of Herbie’s Tenderfeet is unequivocally an all-positive tweak - and a big one too.  With my Tambaqui, I think they are not so good.  I think the sound becomes a bit less muscular and loses some of its charm.  The Tambaqui doesn’t even have feet of its own, just two metal rails on the left and right sides.

With Herbie’s Tenderfeet I find you must be very careful to place them under your gear very evenly, and a bit of experimentation is needed in the optimal placement to get the best degree of transparency.  It’s crazy that even moving the Tenderfeet just half an inch changes the presentation.

 

 

@lalitk , what you say makes a lot of sense, as the rack impacts every component at once. In fact, by far the biggest boost was when I installed four of Herbie’s “Giant Fat Dots” under my current heavy wooden shelf. There was a sudden boost that was far larger than when installing Herbie’s Tenderfeet under each individual component, as it improved all components at once.

However - I first installed the Giant Fat Dots under my shelf, I didn’t do it right. I let the shelf’s four plastic feet rest on the Fat Dots. Herbie’s says these are only for applications where you are interfacing two broad, flat surfaces. When I corrected this fairly recently and moved the fat dots to another location under the shelf away from the shelf’s feet (which raises the shelf’s feet off the floor as the Fat Dots are taller than the shelf’s feet), I couldn’t believe how much stability and solidity was added to the image. Prior to correcting this, the image was always every so slightly “skewing” in one direction or another, especially after I moved a component on my shelf which I guess slightly changed how the shelf’s feet were digging into the fat dots.  The curse of a revealing system.

I expect a high end audio rack would go even farther as you say. The trouble is for me, most tend to look more like science equipment than a welcoming presentation of your system, at least from what I’ve seen.

I’ve just ordered from Herbie’s those discs that you rest on top of your gear. I did this after I experimented by placing a small square piece of granite on top of each component in my system and realizing that it helps. Not to the degree that the Tenderfeet help but still a boost. Unfortunately you can’t really do this with the MU1 because of its chassis design and the big button wheel on top (there I made this at least a bit on-topic :) ). I was able to do it with the Tambaqui despite its curved top. For all components I found the sound became a bit more crisp and sweet in the upper mids and up top.

@svenjosh ”So far the Sablon is holding on its own. I will make a decision once I get the Jorma to try.”

Probably too early but is the Sablon AES really keeping up with the Omega and Odin 2? If so that’s incredible….

BTW I did actually get two Nordost Valhalla 2 USB cable demos last year (I needed two for my Zenith and PhoenixUSB reclocker) and one was 1m and the other was 2m with the 1m practically sounding broken in comparison to the 2m. So if Nordost stopped making sub 1.5m cables it must have been recent (or my demo cables were old possibly).

Very lucky you get to test the Taiko. Will you get to try it in your system or will you try your MU1 in your friend’s system? I expect the Taiko will win although I have seen some forum posts saying a few prefer the MU1. But even if I could afford one I’m not sure I’d go that route. Imagine spending that much on a top of the line server from 2013. Personally I’d not be at all happy with a top of the line 2013 server here in 2023. And spending that much, I’d want to be still happy with it in 2033. I can live with having to upgrade the Grimm MU1 in 10 years or so however. Just my own perspective though…. The Grimm ring-binder manual that comes with the unit says something like “Your music player for life” or something like that…. Funny.

@svenjosh , thanks I’ll check out that article on Positive Feedback. TBH every explanation I’ve seen to date detailing the reasons for the 1.5m minimum has been specific to the USB protocol and how it synchronizes between source and destination. AES cables use a totally different protocol and maybe are different. That said Nordost suggests 1.5m minimum for all digital cables. Again I wouldn’t put too much stock in vendor statements like this, if not for the fact that I heard the difference for myself as plain as day (for USB cables). And I heard this for myself before I even knew about the general recommendations.

Looking forward to seeing how the Sablon cable pans out for you - results seem very promising so far considering what you are staking it up against.  

“Also… in reading the manual for the MU1, I noticed that they state that you must use the variable volume control, and that they recommend not using a fixed volume level. I am interested in how that does not reduce the quality of the digital signal. Can anyone chime in about that?”

@peter_s , I checked page 11 of the MU1 manual after you pointed that out, finally...  I believe the manual is referring to when you are NOT using an analog preamp as a volume control, you must use the MU1’s variable volume instead of other volume controls (in other words don’t fix the MU1 volume and have Roon set the volume in this type of setup).  I think using the analog preamp as the volume and disabling the MU1 volume control is just fine.

 

“The Phoenix Net is in no small portion a reclocker. In my system I reclock the ethernet with both an Etherregen clocked by Antelope 10m preceded by a LHYaudio Ocxo switch. The effect of both is demonstrable and not achievable by Isolators or filters.”

@antigrunge2 , getting back to this topic…. You are absolutely correct that the PhoenixNET adds an element of refinement to the MU1, presumably in part due to its reclocking function.  But I find it also has its own sonic character that seems to inhibit the MU1 in particular (can sound wonderful with other streamers).  The MU1 simply doesn’t sing quite as freely with the PhoenixNET in the chain, at the top of the midrange band.

Just finished reading the highly technical article that @svenjosh referenced explaining why digital cables less than 1.5m are not ideal.  I have the right background to understand it but I did have to read through it a couple of times to figure it out as it’s been a while.  

Here is my attempt at a one sentence explanation, assuming I understood it correctly:  A fast transition of a square wave transmitted to the DAC by the streamer will cause the DAC’s receiver to receive it a few nanoseconds later.  The DAC will register the transition and then impose that transition back on the line - slightly later.  After 3-4 “ping-pongs”’ of these reflections the timing of the digital sample can result in the transition being registered at the incorrect time.  Essentially, jitter.  A 1.5m cable will prolong this ping-pong effect with delayed propagation over a 1m cable, and the digital sample will occur prior to the damage (jitter) caused by the ping-pong effect.

Okay a bit more than one sentence :)

Here is the link to the Positive Feedback article.  For anyone technically inclined, I’d be curious to know my summary of the article is accurate….  Or if maybe I totally misunderstood it :)

 

 

“The Phoenix Net is in no small portion a reclocker. In my system I reclock the ethernet with both an Etherregen clocked by Antelope 10m preceded by a LHYaudio Ocxo switch. The effect of both is demonstrable and not achievable by Isolators or filters.”

@antigrunge2 , getting back to this topic…. You are absolutely correct that the PhoenixNET adds an element of refinement to the MU1, presumably in part due to its reclocking function. But I find it also has its own sonic character that seems to inhibit the MU1 in particular (can sound wonderful with other streamers). The MU1 simply doesn’t sing quite as freely with the PhoenixNET in the chain, at the top of the midrange band.  The refinement factor it adds isn’t huge.  With my Innuos gear I think the PhoenixNET’s character improves things rather than holds it back, which isn’t surprising.  
 

Nevertheless I’m going to start with the Muon Pro filter in a few weeks.  At some point in the future I may experiment with other Ethernet switches/reclockers…

@richtruss , I was thinking about this and not everyone has internet service of 1Gbps. I believe I have up to 300Mbps service to my house. Also, if the communications were capped at 100Mbps even when the MU1 can do 1Gbps, I wonder if that would really matter? Not saying it doesn’t matter but just wondering. If it does matter, that would be an argument to upgrade my internet service I would think!

Update:  further to this, I looked and even Innuos streamers including the Zenith Mk3 support Gigabit Ethernet when the PhoenixNET is noted as supporting only up to 100Mbps.  So this would imply that capping to 100Mbps doesn’t hold back sonic performance as Innuos wouldn’t have held back their own streamers with the PhoenixNET.

@nadimjaber, I have to say that between replacing my three Innuos boxes with the MU1, and replacing my Gryphon Diablo 300 DAC module with a Mola Mola Tambaqui, the upgrade to the DAC has made the most difference.  But the fact that the MU1 is slightly better than Innuos (along with a different sonic presentation), in one single box, is a win for me personally. Keep in mind I expect the MU1 will get a boost when I finally get my upgraded cables, as I am using only a basic set currently.  I’m also using a 1m AES which as above is not as ideal as a 1.5m length for digital interconnects.

Unfortunately there’s no way to figure out what will give you the biggest boost aside from just trying stuff out.  I started down that path by buying used gear that is easy to sell with good demand on the second hand market, wherever I could.  That way I was able to try stuff without too much of an added cost. Wasn’t able to do that with the MU1 though, so I was risking losing a bit more if it didn’t work out.  Thankfully the MU1 is here to stay though.

@benzman 
“The Grimm and Innuos were very popular at Axpona this weekend. As good as they sounded you went into a room with vinyl and they are still not quite there.”

I heard that Innuos was showing off the Pulsar (although not a functioning demo?).

And yes, I wouldn’t expect that we’d be quite at the level of analog enjoyment in the digital world quite yet…. Maybe one day, maybe never!

“I have used the same make of excellent AES cable, with different lengths (both 1.5m and less than 1.5m), in my rig and I cannot distinguish the difference.”

@metaldetektor I expect it depends on your DAC’s jitter rejection abilities as to how much of an issue this is.  Also, while I clearly heard the difference when comparing the same USB cable of different lengths, I do wonder if maybe USB is more susceptible to this issue than AES.  Of note, I tested two Nordost Valhalla 2 USB cables of different lengths, and I also heard the same effect when I tried a .75m Audioquest Diamond USB cable vs my 1.5m versions of the same cable.

Once in a blue moon a low cost product seems to rival far more expensive ones.  I had considered trying out the inexpensive Musetec DAC that many say beats much more expensive DACs, including some who say it beats the Tambaqui at a fraction of the cost.  Seems to be a lot of people who love that DAC.  The thing that made me not include the Mustec in my journey was the fact that in every instance where people claimed it beat the Tambaqui or similar more expensive DACs, the poster was feeding the DAC with a very basic and inexpensive streaming source.  My hypothesis is that the better DACs were simply better at exposing flaws of the source and therefore people concluded the cheaper DAC was best.  I’m not saying that’s what happened, it’s just a hypothesis as I said, given that I couldn’t seem to find one of these comparisons where a higher end source was used.  HiFi can be misleading like that, it’s even happed to me in this thread were I’ve attributed sonic qualities to one component only to find later that it was a different component responsible for the sonic trait.

@melm , just to emphasize what I said, it is simply a hypothesis that those comparing the Tambaqui to the Musetec are feeding it with a more basic source resulting in the Tambaqui being more revealing of system flaws.  It was more of a “what-if” scenario based on what I saw people feeding the Tambaqui in the comparison with Musetec.

I don’t doubt that people in general are feeding their Musetecs with high quality sources and I’m open to the possibility that the Musetec is truly better than the Tambaqui as well.

The individual being referenced as preferring the Musetec over the Tambaqui had a basic streamer listed as the source where he was posting the outcome of his comparison on Head-Fi on the Tambaqui thread (his system was listed in his signature).  Apologies in advance of I’ve misinterpreted something but I see the Lumin U2 Mini listed as the source, which is certainly not a poor source, but maybe not at the level of a MU1.  It would be good to see a comparison of the Tambaqui vs the Mustec with a MU1 level player or higher as the source.

To be clear, I have no conclusions formed (that would be silly as I haven’t heard the Musetec), just mere speculation based on the circumstances of the comparisons.  Based on what many say I’m sure the Musetec is an awesome DAC and perhaps the best value out there when it comes to DACs.  And yes the internals look incredible; very clean like the Holo May.  I just wouldn’t form any conclusions until we see more comparisons with the Tambaqui with higher end / premium sources.  If you can show me some I will stand corrected; I may have simply not come across them! :)

 

 

“This is a great thread, let’s keep it focused on the Grimm and not DAC talk, which for whatever reason gets people overly worked up.”

@metaldetektor , agreed, there are lots of DAC war/opinion threads already and I didn’t intend to steer the discussion that way! I only mentioned as I did consider the Musetec before jumping directly to the Tambaqui as part of the journey I’ve described in this thread.  The thing I can say conclusively is that the Tambaqui bests my Gryphon Diablo DAC module in terms of resolution and focus, albeit at a much higher price point.  For the money, the Diablo DAC module is a warm, inviting, lively and engaging DAC with a fuller low frequency tonal balance than the Tambaqui.  Still a great option for the cost, but the Tambaqui goes further which is not a surprise!

@svenjosh , back to you a more interesting topic, for me at least, how is your digital AES cable shootout with your MU1 going?  Can you share details of how the Sablon cable compares and contrasts with the Shunyata Omega?  Really looking forward to your thoughts on that :)

@lordmelton thanks for the suggestion.  I will try to get around to that and definitely still have an interest in the Musetec.  

Awesome, thank you @svenjosh !  I see that you as well were unsuccessful in securing a Jorma cable this side of the Atlantic.  I even tried contacting UK dealers and distributors, and Jorma directly.  They don’t seem to care about selling their products in North America.

@ghasley while I’m somewhat curious about the buzz surrounding Musetec and I don’t think these people’s experiences should be discounted (questioning is fine), it’s certainly not a priority as my DAC tick box is definitively checked with the Tambaqui.  I have zero reservations on what it adds to my system and can’t really ask for more at the present time.  So while I remain curious about the Musetec testing one is certainly not a priority for me!

What I do find fascinating is @svenjosh ’s enlightening findings on his AES shootout thread.  Extremely interesting he chose Sablon AES over Shunyata Omega and, shockingly to me, over Nordost Odin 2.  Whoa…. And he’s not the first to prefer Sablon over the uber-expensive cables either. Sorry this probably belongs on his thread but it’s sort of intertwined with my journey here too!

Thanks @lalitk . Definitely something to keep in mind. At times I wonder about mixing and matching too many different cable brands in my system and risking mismatches, vs leveraging single brand synergies. Not a big concern though, not by a long shot.

@snopro , just saw this now.  I had previously opened a ticket with Vana Inc from their website requesting the Jorma, but didn’t receive any response.  Can I ask, what other AES cables you have compared with the Jorma, and what differences you found?

Some developments, close to the end of this particular journey… I’ll say this right up front in case it gets missed below, but with my upgraded cables my Innuos PhoenixNET pairs beautifully with the MU1. With the new cables the PhoenixNET does not “overdampen” the sound like it did when I was using the basic cables. Here is where I am at:

1. My Shunyata Omega AES and Sigma V2 XLR cables arrived, and have about 110 hours on them. Burn in was needed; things sounded good at first but vocals were a tad “canned” sounding. All better now.
2. Compared to my prior entry-level temporary cables (Old green Cardas AES cable and Audioquest Red River XLR interconnects), the sound has really relaxed and opened up. High frequencies are coming through without being forceful or drawing attention - they are simply there, in a very relaxed way.
3. Sound is more “suspended” now with far better positioning, space, and air - especially with vocals.
4. The MU1 has more than caught up in one of the areas I thought my Innuos setup was doing slightly better in. The MU1 has become more expansive and open with a bigger sense of presence and scale.
5. Midrange is more relaxed and expressive with more finesse. That hard midrange impact I noted previously is toned down, and in retrospect is not missed. This is better!
6. This one is interesting. Before, I noted that my PhoenixNET didn’t pair well with the MU1. The sound was over dampened, and became dull and lifeless. This is not so with my new cables. It sounds awesome - tightens and clarifies everything without losing anything at all now! Not sure if there is any concern that the MU1’s network speed is 1000 Mbps while the PhoenixNET is limited to 100 Mbps. I will ask Grimm if this holds back sonic performance at all.
7. Another interesting one. Before re-adding the PhoenixNET, I have to admit I wasn’t sure about the MU1’s oversampling modes. I was finding that on some tracks, vocals at center stage were not as solid and well-formed with 4X oversampling engaged. But after reintroducing the PhoenixNET, this problem went away! 4X oversampling sounds fantastic now in all cases, to me! More open, cleaner, more suspended feeling, with more space, and vocals are just as solidly formed at center stage now.
8. As an aside I tried some sonic stabilizers that rest on top of your gear. Herbie’s. They changed the sound without a doubt. But not in a good way - sound became more condensed and compact. Will not use them.
9. I did some comparisons feeding my original Diablo 300 DAC module using the Shunyata Omega AES. And it sounds truly fantastic! Had I tried this originally I would have been happy with this. But the Tambaqui is better - more detail, more precision, more expressive. But taking a step back, between the cost of the Tambaqui, the cost of the Sigma V2 XLR interconnects, and the future cost of a Dragon power cord, I’m not sure the value is there, considering how good the Diablo 300 DAC module sounds now that I have a premium AES cable. But the Tambaqui is without a doubt better, and since I already own the Tambaqui and XLR interconnects, I’m happy with them and they aren’t going anywhere. Debating whether to remove the DAC module from my Diablo300 amp, for a possible boost in quality due to less electrical noise in my amp.

Regarding the SR fuse for my Innuos Zenith Mk3, my dealer has not followed up twice after they had emailed they would. I’ll take that as a sign and give up on that. I may try SR purple fuses in my MU1 and Tambaqui in the future.

Regarding the Muon filter, now that the PhoenixNET is back in the mix, I won’t be going the Muon route. The PhoenixNET does filtering AND it is a reclocker for Ethernet.

As a very final step, I will be ordering a Sablon AES cable. Just have to hear this cable after several reports comparing with Shunyata, the most recent being from @svenjosh.

Really happy with where things seem to be settling out. It’s finally time to say goodbye to my beloved Innuos Zenith Mk3 and PhoenixUSB, and AudioQuest Diamond USB cabling. I can now remove the cellophane screen protector from my MU1 - it’s definitely here to stay!

My next upgrade (because yeah…) will be swapping out my Audioquest Hurricane power cords feeding my source equipment for Dragons. I currently have Dragons feeding my amp and Torus isolation transformer. Seems like a logical next step to me! Will not be anytime soon, will take it slow for now, aside from messing with the Sablon AES….

 

 

 

Back to the MU1. A point I forgot to mention, is that I find both the generic power cord that comes with it and also my Audioquest Hurricane to be looser in the MU1’s power connector socket than with most of my other gear. The slightest nudge will cause a disconnection of power. I absolutely notice an improvement in sound when I reposition and recenter the connector.

Am ordering these to solve the problem. Shunyata ships these exact inserts with their power cords to help with fit when needed.  Perhaps Grimm should too.  Have to order 100 but hey I’ll never run out.