Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

Thanks @ghasley. I also don’t think I’m far off from what I’m looking for in SQ - the N20 proved that. It does everything I want, aside from a slight bit of what the the Innuos does. Just needs a hair more transparency and I’d be there. I don’t even need all the transparency of the Innuos. Is that unreasonable? Maybe! But maybe not….  

@ghasley I am also seriously considering your suggestion to try to get a demo of a well-respected standalone DAC in-house for a demo, as an interim step before sourcing a K50.  I’d only opt to try a DAC within budget, to be fair to the dealer, to enable the path of potentially purchasing it.  

The Bartok is a combined streamer/DAC.  I guess it would be fairly easily within budget even if I had to firesale my servers today (not that I’m going to!).  But do you suggest I try to stick with “pure” standalone DACs?  There is a DCS dealer in an adjacent city that I might be able to get a demo Bartok from…

I think I am going to stick to the plan and acquire a K50. I have an opportunity to acquire one for a deal.

BUT I am also going to follow @ghasley’s advice as well; will get a demo DAC in house AFTER the K50 is good and burnt in. Steps:

1. Acquire a K50 and start burning in while continuing to live with and focus on the N20
2. Acquire a demo of a respected DAC like a Bartok/Lina/Meitner (go Canada…)
3. Spend time with all of the variables possibly even a year
4. Wait for the impending recession to end (who knows how long, but hopefully not long)
5. Sell what I don’t need anymore and possibly buy a DAC, if I feel like it. I have no idea why, but I truly enjoy selling my old gear to people who are very excited to receive it. It makes me happy. I even got carried away and sold my beloved Clarus Crimson Biwire cables just because I wanted to sell them to an eager buyer - and regretted it. The manager at the post office knows me now, and always asks about what audio component I’ve sold this time….

This approach just gives me a bit wider experience, with three premium servers instead of two, to trial with two DACs. Could still fit the MU1 in this mix but it may not be necessary depending on how things go - I’ll have a whole lot of great stuff to trial in different configurations, that I can relax and take my time with. At that point I’ll have a very informed take on the three great servers, used with multiple DACs, and with both USB and AES. Sounds like a plan to me.

The fact is, the parameters I’m working with, shipping and duty wise, demo-access wise, and where I live plays a huge part in how I proceed with something like this.  For someone in the US, I am guessing you have far more flexibility with a plethora of dealers and US-based distributors, for almost any audio component you might want to try.  This journey may be unusual, but it’s going to be fun, informative, and relaxed. Discovering the very blatantly obvious sonic traits of the N20 vs the Innuos has already been informative. Best of all, the net expenditure will not be too crazy after all is said and done.

I’m embarrassed I didn’t think of trying this earlier with the N20 but I totally forgot to try changing my Gryphon DAC module’s filter from the default slow setting to fast. With the Innuos setup, a long time ago I concluded that “fast” produced an overly sharp and thin sound, and just changed back to slow and left it alone since. But with the N20, the effect is really pleasing. Given the overall rich tonal density I’ve been getting with the N20, with the DAC set to “Fast”, the top end is now more naturally crisp, but not sharp like it was with this setting on the Innuos. Vocals are also freed up a bit, are a touch less veiled, and are just a touch more 3D. It’s REALLY quite nice now. Still nowhere near the level of high frequency detail and transparency as the Innuos, but I find so far, I’m not as constantly aware of missing upper detail with the N20 as much as before. This is good! Very enjoyable sound now.

I thought maybe now I’d hear a difference between AES and USB, but nope! Maybe something is capping the AES performance, or my DAC’s USB and clock implementation is so good it makes no difference. I know, extremely unlikely…  I thought I’d hear a difference by now, at the very least simply from the brand new cable burning in vs the well-used equivalent Diamond USB cable.

I read once that changing from slow to fast filters, you gain something (higher upper frequency response) but you also lose something (less stable frequency response due to the more aggressive response). Not sure I have that right. Anyways if I lost anything, I haven’t noticed yet, and I gained more with “Fast” engaged.

@pokey77 , yep, would go for the KTE if I went that direction.

Does look to be a value product.  Thanks to being made in China.  Like the MU1 too.  Could make some ballon jokes here but don’t want to veer in that direction!

Occurred to me the MU1 could possibly be a truly great match for the Holo, feeding it it’s upsampled signal….   

Thanks @pokey77 . Yes down the road I’ll be testing a DAC, as @ghasley has convinced me. Good to know about the Bartok upgrade! We’ll see about that route when the time comes. But it might be too costly for me - unless I use it as a one-box solution and sell all my servers. I might consider dialing it back and trying a more basic but good DAC, like the Holo May.  Not sure which approach would be best, but I did set out on this path with a vision of a one-box solution.  The Holo May, by the way, costs quite a bit less than my Gryphon DAC module. I know that NOS DAC sounds aren’t for everyone, but I’m curious.

With the minor revelation of switching to the Fast filter, so far, I can say that the N20 with my system gives me all I need to be happy. Do I want a bit more? Yes. But if everything else I try fails, I can fall back to the N20 and be perfectly happy with this setup. Really enjoying it now, despite the few things I still am missing from the Innuos. The Innuos has more HiFi magic, but the N20 has a bigger more solid center stage, and this just makes the experience more about the music. If my focus was to have a system to impress HiFi friends with flashy spatial imaging, great immersion, detail and air, the Innuos would be the ticket. The N20 might be duller in my system from that perspective. There are “fine detail” elements of some songs that are really highlighted on the Innuos, but on the N20 you need to pay attention to notice them. But “HiFi” was never the reason I got into this…

Also - it’s too early to say for sure, but I MAY finally be starting to hear a slight benefit of the AES interface over USB! There could be the slightest bit less flatness and more dimensionality to drums and bass - like they are a bit more fully formed. Or I may be imagining it - it’s hard to say at this point….

@ghasley , thanks for the correction.  I’m not sure why I thought the MU1 was made in China.  

Thanks @sns. Evaluating that class of DAC, my thought is to go with the MU1 first, despite the emphasis on AES. My thinking is that the MU1 has a reputation for neutrality and precision, and not injecting a strong character of it’s own. While this is counterintuitive, considering I enjoy a mildly richer sound, there are other factors more important to me than this warmth, and I do feel that between the Innuos and the N20, the N20 has a bit of warmth and smoothness to it. The K50 is also known to be fuller sounding. In really isolating the sound of any DAC’s I’m testing, including my current Gryphon DAC, I feel like the MU1 might be best positioned to maximize the precision and neutrality giving me a good baseline to gauge DACs by. Not only in their character, but also by their performance, assuming that the MU1 is as accurate and precise as people (not just reviewers) say it is. The N20 and K50 can remain options if I want to reintroduce a touch of richness to the sound once I get a feel for the DACs.  That’s my current thinking…

@lalitk , thanks for sharing, and for the advice.

I may be able to get demos of DACs in simultaneously with the next server, and, depending on the value of the DAC, purchase it too. That might be doable with a DAC like the Holo May KTE (although I won’t be able to get a demo of that one - but this is the level of DAC I could purchase alongside the next server).

The DACs mentioned by others above like the Bartok are more expensive, but are combo streaming DACs. So would a lower cost DAC-only, at the level of the Holo, be reasonable to trial? I see Musetec could also be interesting at an even lower price. But these DACs are a lower cost than the cost of my current Gryphon Diablo 300’s DAC module. So do I actually need to go higher? I know cost isn’t the deciding factor in performance but I’m just trying to plan at what level to engage. I can do another server + a Holo level DAC, but not another server plus a Bartok (which I could demo first but would only do so if I could potentially buy).

Also, somewhere above I changed my go-forward approach to require server capabilities. This is because I discovered for the first time that my system has become revealing enough to make the difference in quality matter to me. Once I settle in on a solution, my plan is to build a library of files but limited only to my absolute favorite material. The rest I will stream.

To be clear, I’d still be considering the K50 (or the MU1 despite that the K50 is more flexible) in conjunction with getting some DACs in as demos, at let’s say the $7k level or lower. Might be too limiting at that level?  While I’m unable to get home demos of the servers I’m interested in here, there are a few other dealers who are more demo friendly that I might be able to borrow interesting DACs from.

I think my most recent thoughts on the N20 in my current system have pretty much stabilized for the near future, knowing that long term use can change things.  While I still think I hear a slight improvement with AES over USB, it’s so close that I wonder if I only hear it because I expect to.  I will get around to subjecting myself to a blind test, but I am expecting not to pass it.  I’ve also gone back and forth a few times with tiny speaker adjustments - my speakers with the N20 really want to be toed in a lot.  Tried backing off on that slightly for a few days, and just went back to the more toed in marker position.  Immediately it was like “ah, that’s a bit better.”
 

Either way, 

Purchased an MU1. Should have in a few weeks.

Next need to consider the DAC. Will try to line up some demos before buying anything, and at the very least see how the MU1 does with my Gryphon DAC just while it’s burning in. Which I’m very interested in, because in theory it will help me get an understanding of the weaknesses of my DAC, supposedly being neutral leaning and accurate. Want to see if I perceive any negatives that might be common to either of the other two servers, which might be attributable to my DAC. Will try to get demo DAC’s in once the MU1 is burned in.

Yes, I do anticipate a revelation when I try the demo DACs - far moreso than I expect with the MU1. But I wanted a really neutral baseline to test the DAC’s with..

So I know, I’m only partially following your wise advice!

I’m also buying a Jorma AES cable finally, now that I found someone who will sell me one. I’ll need to return my demo Audioquest Diamond AES cable this week unfortunately, so I won’t be able to do controlled A/B tests between AES and USB.

Will continue running the AES on my N20 for 4 more days.  Still hoping something changes there, but probably not at this point.  At some level I’m disappointed in that, as I’d hope that fancy clock in the N20 would do something.  Will be interesting to do the same comparison with a different DAC.  On that note, the dealer who lent me the Diamond cable are a Linn and Moon dealer.  They might have some of their lower end DACs on hand for me to try with the Diamond cable.  But they often can’t as they are a tiny outfit and only have two demo systems in their shop, and most of their gear is reserved for that.  I will ask though.

Well, the MU1 may be all I’m looking for, but maybe not - I have zero expectations in terms of how I’ll enjoy it, and in what configuration. But between three server solutions and TBD DAC’s I’ll be trying eventually, I’m sure I’ll figure it out. I’m not banking on the MU1 being part of the final solution; could be the N20 for all I know at this point! I’m a bit down on Innuos currently - I’m sure just due to my system parameters - super impressed with its detail air and space but not with its lack of image stability and solidity in my current system. Not sure that’s the right way to describe it. Maybe a new DAC would sort that out. Will find out eventually!

@lalitk , regarding the XLR interconnects, I have to admit I have no idea where to start there, as my system has not needed anything but USB cables for many years now. 

A mild source of stress of something I’m planning to research later so any pointers on that will help!  Do I need to bother trying a few options of interconnects, or does the fact that they are XLR negate the need for this?  Should I really be looking at ultra-low cost options since they are XLR?

Won’t be getting any DACs to try for quite a while yet.  The MU1 will probably take a month to arrive, and a month to burn in.  So T - 60 days or so until I bring in some  DACs….

@ghasley thanks again, and this time I’ve already been thinking along the lines of your advice :)

I admit I still hang onto the dream of being satisfied with my current DAC and staying true to my original objective - which I know is probably unlikely. Even if the Grimm does everything I want and more, you and others have convinced me to try an outboard DAC just to see. For all these reasons I am not planning to buy any DAC(s) at this point. I admit I might have a moment of weakness if a used Holo KTE comes up for a good price. But that aside , not going there at this point.

BUT - One thing that bugs me, in the back of my mind sort of way, is how many thousands of hours my poor Diablo has been run simply breaking in other gear, cables, etc. The Diablo does get quite hot - like a very warm (but not scalding) cup of coffee - due to its small amount of Class A power. For this reason, it DID cross my mind that I might want to buy a very cheap used DAC, simply so I can have the new server circuits running with a connection, so my Diablo can have some rest…. Not sure if this is a silly concern or not!!

On the subject of Grimm DACs, no the MU1 has no onboard DAC.  It is in the same class of product as the N20 and K50, but with its FPGA upsampling board.  The other thing that distinguishes it is that currently, it only supports Roon.  But as @ghasley said, the MU1 intercepts things and the usual disadvantages of Roon don’t apply to the MU1.  Grimm have gone to great lengths to do this.

Now, the truly interesting product which is long overdue is the MU2.  I believe it’s about two years late coming out now.  The MU2 will have an onboard DAC.  Not sure if it will finally launch this year. But I have read that MU1 owners expect to have the option to upgrade to a MU2.  I’m not sure how this upgrade works, but sounds good.  Another reason to hold off on purchasing any DACs I suppose.

Other forums report incremental improvements in the MU1’s sound with firmware updates (as has been reported with other servers updates too).  The most recent being the 1.5 update in December.  People report a denser, bigger midrange, however they did report this effect gives the top end less of an edge.  But overall thought it was an improvement.  I don’t like thinner sounding midranges, that’s one reason I like the N20.  Prior to the December firmware release, I read that Grimm had actually overhauled the code that does their onboard upsampling.  I like how they present each firmware update as a labour of love, indicating how long they’ve been working on it will all the value it provides.

In one of their firmware release notes they sadly said that they failed to enable the FM tuner hardware that is on the MU1 with their firmware release, with the resulting sound not being up to Grimm’s standards.  They announced they were giving up on this notion.  I’m thinking this was an April Fools joke, as that particular release was in April.  Either way, funny!

@ghasley that is a really, really interesting rumour if true (MU2 being a Mola Mola / Grimm collaboration.  That would be amazing.  Almost seems too cool to be true though, or founded in wishful thinking.  Hopefully not!

@arafiq I will try the Purple fuse with Innuos. Will see how it goes!  As I said I’ve heard from enough people that I expect a big performance jump.  I should clarify something though.  I don’t have any issue whatsoever with the Zenith on its own.  I used to, prior to the 2.0 software update.  Before that update, I slightly preferred my Mac Mini running Audirvana over the Zenith with Roon.  But after 2.0, the Zenith pulled ahead, with Sense and even with Roon using Squeezelite.  My issues only started when I added the PhoenixUSB Reclocker, which I know is much revered.  There is no question it made a world of difference, improving clarity, depth, etc.  But it made all tones, and I believe this is specific to my system, cables, etc, much more “on a knife’s edge”.  It’s not bright.  It’s not thin.  But I find I can’t help but constantly gauge the image delivery quality.  I can’t fully forget about that and just listen to music.  Everything is just not quite delivered with a commanding sense of confidence and solidity.  Not enough impact.  The N20 does this for me, but without the detail air and depth I get with the Innuos setup.  This is simply my experience in my system, I know all of these products are well loved by most.

Thanks @lalitk. The price of the first one is temptingly lower, and I did say that I wanted a cheaper outboard DAC just so I could burn in the MU1 and cable, without subjecting my Diablo to even more burn-in duty. It’s done enough of that over 4 years! That said, I was thinking of a really cheap DAC with an AES input for this purpose. On the other hand, this could be an opportunity to try an outboard DAC beyond my Diablo and serve burnin-duty as well. And, it would give me something to try for the next 60 days with my Innuos and N20 setups while the MU1 is on its way and burning in. In fact it might be even longer until I have a burned in MU1 due to high demand they are seeing right now. 

@sc2, I've tried upsampling from Conductor on the N20 only briefly a few times over a few days, and I did not listen too seriously.  May be a correct or incorrect bias, but my understanding is that upsampling from the app/roon/Conductor/etc is not the path to good sound.  My very brief impression was that the sound changed somehow when I engaged upsampling.  I didn't really consider carefully how it changed.  But when I disengaged upsampling again, things suddenly sounded more together and fluid or something.  Not really sure, all I know is it made a slight change, and that I think I liked it best turned off.

@ghasley, yeah, I know….  It’s going strong with the N20 still, constantly, as we speak!  I will stick to waiting things out for the DAC.  But I will add @lalitk ’s suggestions to the list of DACs I will want to try at the right stage.  
 

Means I may not have any updates for quite a while.  But I’ll give the purple fuse a go at least.  

I just read that yes, the MU1 truly does have an FM tuner on board with a connection for the antenna, however it was never enabled through software and presumably abandoned. Not sure if they have since abandoned its useless antenna connector on the rear. @ghasley , maybe you can comment on whether your MU1 includes the antenna connector?

Not that it matters - I just find it SO odd that a product like this includes an FM tuner and antenna connector - just doesn’t seem to belong! The rest of the product seems so singular in its design approach - minimalist, Roon only, etc.  I seriously thought it was an April Fools joke when they announced that they failed to make it work well and had given up!  Even Grimm said in their release notes that it’s an anachronistic feature when there are endless great sounding digital radio stations available.  Funny.

Thanks @grannyring.  Question regarding the purple fuse - since I have the PhoenixUSB should I consider trying adding one there as well?  Or only on the Zenith which feeds the PhoenixUSB? In my current system, the PhoenixUSB plays adds air, upper detail, and dimension that is not there with just the Zenith on its own.

Thanks @grannyring.

congrats @fastfreight!  You should have a sort of preview of the MU2 if the rumour is true!  But I’m not holding my breath….

I was told by my dealer that the price is going up for the MU1.  He said there was an influx of orders to get in at the old price….  Slightly longer lead time because of it (4 weeks).  @fastfreight just curious - did you hear about this?

@ghasley I would not consider this official but my dealer told me the price of the MU1 was going up by $3,000. I was wondering if anyone else had heard this to corroborate what I was told.

It’s funny, in most threads I’ve read on the MU1, there is the eventual comparison of its internals vs others.  I’m surprised it took this long on this thread.  It certainly doesn’t look as sexy as the others inside, that’s for sure! But it is far more technically advanced than its somewhat crude looking internals imply. But all that doesn’t matter anyways, to me it’s just an interesting side-note to the sound. Looking forward to trying mine!

@metaldetektor interesting analysis on DAC pairings with MU1; thanks. Interesting you found the NOS DACs to be ideal, because to me that just logically makes sense as the upsampling is just moved to the MU1. Which raises the question for me at least - is it more advantageous to do upsampling in the network player, as in the MU1, or is it better to do it in the DAC? Or does it matter?

So what I think I’m not too bad at is analyzing exactly what I hear with gear. My initial analysis tends to remain even after living with gear for a very long time. My current assessment of the characteristics of the N20 have not changed one bit since my original assessment.

What has changed, however, is how I feel about those characteristics. This is the area where I struggle, as time changes how I feel.

For the first time in a while, I switched back to my Innuos gear and listened all day while working.  And I loved it. It was like the transparency, dimensionality, and air, and life was injected back into the music. I know it seems fickle and just a few posts back I said I was down on Innuos. Just please do yourself a favour and ignore any statements I make about what I like or dislike as I obviously can’t even trust myself with that. Paying attention to how I describe sound is totally okay though - I believe everything I stated in terms of sonic characteristics is totally still valid!

One note I should make - going back to Innuos I tried leaving my speakers at their toed in position that was needed for the Aurender N20 to have a solid image. It’s possible I got carried away with the positioning with Innuos before, and had the speakers toed out too much to boost the image width and crispness. But now, it sounds pretty awesome. Am also appreciating the BIG bass with more clarity and dimensionality. I also have left my DAC filter setting on “Fast” instead of the “Slow” default setting.

I think this is an example of, one server solution is not better than the other; they are simply different. I am glad to have experienced the N20 as before that, I really didn’t know what my Innuos setup added to my system. Now I know! Once I get a different DAC in house I will give the N20 another shot. I’m in talks with a dealer that may be able to set me up with a demo of the Merason DAC1, recommend by @ghasley and seemingly highly recommended by almost everyone who has heard it. The Mk1 version costs 40% less than my Gryphon DAC module, but as we know high cost doesn’t mean better sound. Still waiting patiently for the MU1 to arrive. Wondering if that will be better, or just different!

I will aspire to be a better audiophile. By honing my ability to detect what is truly “better” to my ears, as opposed to merely “different”. A good lesson.

Thanks @arafiq, very interesting.  I don’t know about the Zeno filter but have you every tried the Zenith with the PhoenixUSB?  It’s really an entirely different experience than the Zenith on its own.  Depending on the DAC used of course.

I should mention I agree that the Innuos gear, with or without the PhoenixUSB, is not a sound I would consider to be organic leaning.  But, it’s certainly not analytical or dry either.   Again, the DAC used can obviously change all of this; my comparison and reference point is a different server (the N20) connected to the same DAC (Gryphon Diablo module).

@lordmelton thanks for the tips! :)

@arafiq , interesting. Still planning to try the purple fuse - will order this week.

Yes I’ve heard that for some the PhoenixUSB doesn’t add much. The fact that the PhoenixUSB does actually help I suppose implies that the Diablo DAC module is lesser than the DACs where the PhoenixUSB makes no difference. Not sure if this is the right way to think about it, but I’ve seen that argument in forums before. And I’ve seen some people claim it also helps when paired with some of the Uber-DACs.

I would really love it if the Grimm does everything and just a bit more, in one box, with my Diablo DAC module. If it did, I’d be tempted to stop there. But because of this thread, I’ve promised myself just to try a stand-alone DAC. I know know a lot more about my Innuos setup thanks to the N20. Likewise, trying against another DAC would offer insight into my Diablo 300 DAC module.

Back to the Grimm, my fear (too strong of a word) is that the AES interface won’t perform well with my Diablo DAC module. Or at least not as well as it should. The reason being, that there was really zero difference between the Aurender N20’s USB and AES interfaces when they should really have sounded different. Something seems funny there, and leads me to wonder if it’s the Diablo DAC’s AES interface that is limiting things.

Just doing rough math, it feels like you could spend about $10k on a master clock setup, if you consider adding a decent clock cable and a premium power cable.

Given there are so many paths to reach our audiophile objectives, I’ve often mused (there I go with my musings @lordmelton ! Sorry for the pain… ) on each upgrade, in terms of the degree of sonic improvement per dollar spent. Like when I tested Valhalla 2 USB cables once, they sounded a fair bit better. But, for the amount of money, I realized I could get way more benefit putting that money elsewhere.

So, my question is, would $10k for a semi-premium master clock setup take you further than, say, putting that cash into a $20k DAC instead of a $10k DAC, or, a Statement Next-Gen or even a Taiko? Probably an impossible question to answer, but I’m wondering how the whole Masterclock concept stacks up in terms of sonic benefit per dollar spent, at least at a general level, vs putting that money elsewhere.

I find it’s often a worthwhile question to ask when upgrading:  For a set amount of cash, what upgrade would result in the biggest benefit?

Back to the masterclock topic for a moment, I did notice that the original seller of my N20 just very recently listed a After Dark masterclock that is a two box option, for what seems to be a reasonable price. What a weird model naming convention - Double Emperor or something. Not sure if this is compatible with the N20. Again, not going this route! I’m just curious.

@ghasley , thanks and yes I am sticking to my guns. I am not going to go the masterclock route, even though I don’t doubt the benefits that @lordmelton ​​​​and @lalitk report. I am merely curious about the approach and relative value.

Also, I decided to purchase one of the mint condition lightly used Merason DAC-1’s for a good price. Thanks for the suggestion. Considering the $ it’s no big deal if it doesn’t work out. Especially when you consider the amount I’m spending on severs not knowing if they will work out lol! I wanted to try this DAC in particular because it seemed to be one of the best bang for the buck options, and I couldn’t find an option in Canada where I could demo one. The only downside of the DAC-1 that I can see is it doesn’t do MQA or DSD. Not really concerned with that however as I don’t have DSD files, and haven’t really paid attention to MQA before. Although I hear it is supposed to be better.

I am still hoping I will end up selling the DAC1 and succeeding in my original goal of only one box feeding my Diablo 300 DAC module, but I’m really interested in seeing how the DAC 1 sounds. If the “worst case scenario” happens and the DAC 1 sounds better than my current DAC, the seller told me Merason told him he could upgrade the unit to the MK2 version for a very reasonable price (considering the MK2 costs 50% more than the MK1). The seller ended up instead getting a very expensive EMM DAC.

No clue at the moment what to use for balanced XLR interconnects.

@lalitk , 100%, I am very interested in all of the avenues we could choose to take with the products that I am choosing to spend some time to experience, even if I’m not planning to charge ahead and follow these paths. You and others on this thread obviously have a lot of knowledge and experience, not only on gear but the approach.

For me my time with the N20 has taught me more about me I think, than about the N20 itself. It taught me where my sonic priorities are, even when other presentations can be very alluring. I know I might “get there” following the path you have charted, but, I want to see which server takes me the furthest without going those extra steps. And to see what the external DAC can do. Not to mention that I prefer a simpler system, lol…

It was @ghasley who convinced me to try a good standalone DAC, as of course, I care about the sound of my system. But, I’m hoping it’s nothing but a learning experience and I get to sell my Merason after my time with it. I will however accept that my digital chain needs to include three boxes, as it is today (with my network switch, server and reclocker as it stands today), if the Merason wins.

I can even see a possible end to this particular journey being that I circle back to Innuos in the end - if I do I will go with the Statement. The difference with my N20 and my current Innuos setup has me wondering if there is some magic happening with my Diablo DAC module and the PhoenixUSB reclocker (which the Statement includes). Hoping when it arrives the MU1 will either confirm this, or it will be the one I prefer, but either way ideally without the Merason!

That said, I want to give the Merason the best chance I can. What are people using for XLR interconnects at this level?

@ghasley , I believe you are referring to the new MK2 version of the Merason DAC 1, which is 50% higher than before? Supposedly it’s been totally redesigned, and there are no reviews or firsthand accounts of the MK2, so I guess we can’t say quite yet whether the new version still punches above its weight at the higher price.

In my case, I purchased my mint MK1 version at a very reasonable price, and have the option to upgrade to the MK2 version at a very reasonable cost.

@chopandchange , your rationale makes sense to me. I too have found that earlier components in the digital chain are not limited by later, lesser components in the chain. As I mentioned before, Innuos demoed their new flagship $28k (CAD) Statement Next Gen paired with the Gryphon Diablo 300 integrated with its DAC module that I have, with the DAC module costing $10k (CAD). Although my DAC module cost 40% less when I bought it in 2019!

The MU1 costs about 35% more than the list price of my Gryphon DAC, so it’s not wildly out of whack from that perspective.  Although I did hear that the MU1 price is going up imminently.

A couple of updates.

I sold my N20! I know. Too early as I hadn’t yet tried it with the Merason DAC1. Blind squirrel, three legged horse and all that…. But:

1. The N20 already taught me a lot as I said above. And the sound ultimately is not for me - I know… at least with my current DAC and in its three-legged horse masterclockless configuration.
2. A buyer who is a fan of Aurender approached me. And I know how long it can take to sell high value items.
3. I was able to get back my original expenditure, minus shipping, fees, etc.

Premature, I know, but an opportunity arose and I had to make a call.

Onwards. The MU1 and Merason DAC1 are inbound.

I am still without any AES cable or interconnects, and I need to return my overdue demo Audioquest Diamond AES! A dealer has valiantly tried and failed to become a Jorma dealer, to source a Jorma AES cable for me.

With that path a dead end, primary choices are to go with either Sablon or Shunyata AES and balanced XLR cables. Any suggestions which? I feel Sablon to be highly intriguing. But I also feel resale may be better with Shunyata. I feel either would be great. I want to go with Sablon but I feel a Shunyata might be wiser. After all, if I end up sticking with Innuos after all this, I’ll be selling both cables! Why not stick with the Audioquest Diamond AES that I’ve been demoing? Not sure. If I’m honest, maybe because I see a lot more buzz around a Shunyata and Sablon AES cables. Lots of people go on about the AQ Diamond USB but not really about the AQ AES or XLR interconnects.

@richh84 , if the MU1 is better than my Innuos Zenith Mk3 and PhoenixUSB, with or without the outboard Merason DAC, I won’t likely bother with the Statement. The logic being that most who have experienced my Innuos gear and the Statement say that the Zenith and reclocker gets you 90% of the way towards the Statement (non Next Gen version). If however my current Innuos gear is equal or better than the MU1 in my system, then I 100% plan to trial the Statement. As I mentioned earlier Innuos kindly offered to send a demo to my local dealer who is not even an Innuos dealer.

I do think I might head the Shunyata route. Only because I’ve trialed their power cords before (Omega and Sigma NR v2) and was impressed, along with their level of customer service. Even if I didn’t end up buying last time. Plus, I’ve read so many accounts over the years of people saying how Shunyata interconnects sound, in general (which is consistent with how I felt their Omega power cord sounds), that I don’t think I’ll be overly surprised. But thanks for sharing your experience with Siltech. I do think I know what you mean about the benefits of silver/copper without the negatives however. Know people feel silver is harsh/fatiguing/revealing/overly lean, but I’ve not actually found any of that to be the case in my system with my components. Except for the revealing part, which I like. But my system seems to do okay even with poor, harsher recordings. Probably because my current DAC is known to be warm leaning. And possibly my amp too although there is some debate whether it’s the Diablo amp or DAC that provides the warmer mids. The Merason DAC1 is also reported to be revealing with a softer smoother midrange so that should be a really interesting comparison when it arrives.

So I’ve been enjoying Bob Dylan’s Time Out of Mind Bootleg Series. MQA version. Not my typical music but the seller of my Merason DAC1 mentioned how much he was liking it and I have to say I’m really enjoying it too.

I was playing the MQA version of Bob’s sessions, and realized that I had years ago read up on all the controversy, went “huh” and promptly ejected it from my mind. So I read up on it again. Found out my current Diablo 300 DAC doesn’t support it. Then I wondered, does my Innuos gear deal with MQA? Went to check settings in Sense, and nope. Nothing about MQA, only DSD stuff. But wait! There’s a new version of Innuos software with press releases saying they now deal with MQA and is “core certified”. So I promptly updated my Innuos software to 2.3.1. And found by default Sense now does “the first unfold” for MQA. Naturally, I tried disabling it and…. I found things were definitely better with it enabled. Interesting!

Now, the Merason DAC1 doesn’t support MQA. And the MU1 seems like by design it encourages you not to worry about MQA beyond the first unfold by Roon. As it’s upsampling board can’t be used if you are passing the MQA stream to an MQA enabled DAC. I like this approach. Makes an argument that having an MQA-enabled DAC is really pointless with a MU1, because a big part of the reason you buy the MU1 is for the 4X upsampling. And you get that benefit even on non-MQA material.

That said I have to say the MQA unfold by Sense, feeding my non-MQA DAC module, sounds pretty good…. Really looking forward to seeing what the MU1’s upsampling can do in comparison.  Not really an apples to apples thing I know.  Just an interesting side note really with the latest Innuos update.

@ghasley you will roll your eyes I’m sure but I am going ahead with Shunyata Omega for the AES and Sigma V2 for the balanced analog interconnects. Made possible by my recent sale of the N20. Fought the FOMO, and lost….

I do recall how much I liked the Shunyata Omega PC, despite the fact that I ultimately picked the AQ Dragon over it.

The MU1 and the DAC 1 will have no excuses to not perform their best…

@ghasley , just watched a highly technical review of the Merason DAC 1 and the reviewer states, twice, that the AES inputs are limited to 96k and only the USB goes to 192k. Is that true? If so, does this pose a limitation for the MU1’s up sampled AES output?

DAC 1 Review, see 6:18 and also mentioned earlier.

@ghasley totally agreed.  I’m a fanboy of certain gear (my Diablo) but I’m also aware there are perfectly good reasons to go with a different amp that is equally good.  I’m also open to hearing other opinions and critiques of my prized amp.  I’m well aware of a couple shortcomings it has, but those shortcomings don’t bother me in the slightest.  I’m also aware that a Gryphon Essence setup would likely blow my Diablo out of the water, albeit with a different tonal presentation. And at a much higher cost, despite what people say about Essence being a “value” (which I don’t doubt).

Back to the DAC 1, I know Merason takes a “focus on the basics and nothing else” approach, but the AES limitation to 96k seems to be the only real limitation (arguably of course if you care about MQA and DSD support) of merit in modern times.  As such, I wonder if the DAC 1 MK 2 might support a higher bandwidth on its AES input.  I still have the option to upgrade to the MK2 for a very low cost.  @ghasley , do you happen to know?  I’ve sent a note to Merason to ask.

Thanks @ghasley , all makes sense with the DAC1.  At 2X OS I can compare the DAC 1 and the Gryphon DAC and see who wins.  That will still be a valid test of how a very well regarded outboard DAC compares.  The used DAC 1 cost me relatively little and I can always sell it get a different DAC if it happens to win the test.  Maybe the Tambaqui, who knows. 

If my Gryphon DAC survives and I’m left with that and the MU1, I will have an uber AES interconnect between them, the Omega.  As far as I can tell my Gryphon’s AES input will go to 192k.

If the DAC 1 wins, I have a unnecessarily premium interconnect.

And same for the Bricasti and Holo May KTE!

Wow @smatsui if I had two systems like that I’d want to mix and match to compare different configurations!  Would be interested in the Aurender/Grimm face off.  Try both in one system and both in the other….

@ghasley , a big correction on the DAC1. Merason got back to me and said this:

I know it is far too early to be listening this critically. But you know how it goes, new toy and all…

I went back to the Gryphon Diablo DAC module for a bit. I realized that what I perceived to be more bass MAY be actually due to the Gryphon DAC being warmer leaning, with a more bottom-up presentation. I believe the Merason may be more neutral leaning, aside from the gentleness in the upper mids. I think it may have been in the Pursuit of the Perfect System review where the guy mentioned he thought the Diablo 300 was actually quite neutral and that the warmth people attribute to it is actually coming from the DAC and not the amp. I am thinking I might be agreeing with this now!

The Gryphon DAC is still better with detail resolution and spatial presentation, but as I mentioned, everything is just smaller, narrower and more delicate. Something I incorrectly attributed to Innuos above in this thread. My sincerest apologies Innuos! Things are more confident, coherent and “in the room” with the Merason. I know it may sound like I was saying about the Aurender N20. But the difference is with the Merason the sound is far more is wide open and I’m not missing any top end frequencies at all, as I was when the N20 was in my system.

@ghasley I have to thank you for convincing me to try an outboard DAC and suggesting the Merason DAC1.

My DAC1 arrived a bit early. I’ve quicky unpacked it and connected it using the very basic cables I have on hand. The unit is really in mint condition. With my Innuos gear, I can confirm the sound is very enjoyable and natural. The reviews I think are largely accurate. It is a hair less resolving than my amp’s DAC module, but it more relaxed, easy going, and less “wound up”. In comparison my amp’s DAC module has a tension to it that makes it less relaxing. Vocals and all sounds are bigger and less pinpointed/edgy than with my Gryphon DAC module. Vocals are also properly presented boldly and up front instead of being set too far back in the mix and made to be smaller when using my Gryphon DAC. Another quality I was unsure whether my Innuos gear or my Gryphon DAC was responsible for, until now. Now I know! I think my Gryphon DAC has a touch more of a full and bigger bass sound. I’m also noticing the slight smoothness of sound that many of the reviews mention. The highs are not rolled off at all, rather, upper mids are just easier going. Snare drums hit with clarity and crispness but they don’t jump out like a gunshot anymore when the volume is cranked. All of this makes for a very easygoing but engaging listen without resorting to a closed in sound.

The DAC1 is cold still from being delivered - it’s 41F outside now. Between that the basic Audioquest RCA interconnects (bought for $500 25 years ago), I think it’s likely I’ll get some better transparency once it warms up and once my fancy Shunyata cables arrive. And, I can always upgrade to the Mk2.

Just my very early and preliminary impressions. An interesting thing is, like when I had the Aurender N20, the DAC1 seems to address my nits with the Innuos setup. Or more accurately would be to say my nits with my Gryphon DAC module now that I know. The question is, whether I could get the degree of bass and transparency to be happy with it. Between warmup, replacing my basic RCA cables with the new balanced cables, and a possible upgrade to the MK2 version, I can see myself getting there potentially. Not to mention the introduction of the MU1 in a few weeks. With the Shunyata Omega AES. Fun times….

Update: by the end of this long post I am already hearing greater transparency one one song I had first played about an hour ago.

Update2:  Just realized the MU1 had better beat my Innuos gear.  Otherwise I’m at +1 boxes with an outboard DAC, regardless of whether I were to stick with my current Innuos gear or go with the Statement! Pulsar is an option I suppose but I do now value having a server…

Thanks @ghasley. I know the Merason isn’t end game, especially considering how comparatively inexpensive it is. Regardless of how it sounds now, I’m learning things about my Gryphon DAC module. People have said it’s got a little warmth but I now think that is a big understatement. The entire bottom end and mid bass has quite a lot of warmth, and it’s very detailed at the same time. I think that boosted lower frequencies is the reason I’ve felt the mids and vocals are recessed and overly delicate and small. I think it’s causing the midrange tension I spoke of. This is what happens when you boost lower frequency tone controls, the mids can become a bit pinched off. So what I am hearing with the Merason is I think mostly my ears adjusting to a more neutral presentation, where the midrange is more prominent and open. Have to say I like the coloration of then Gryphon DAC though - it is a pleasing tonal balance. But I think there are trade offs with the more constrained mids. It will be interesting to see if I can adjust and be comfortable with the more neutral presentation in the end. I hope so, and I think it’s possible.

@arafiq , that fact has not been lost on me either, lol!

Definitely in the honeymoon phase for sure….

The sound now is not limited in the high frequencies like I found with the Aurender however. I think the “more confident” and open midrange is nothing to do with performance of the Merason, beyond the fact that it is more neutral than my Gryphon DAC.

I am NOT going to say I love the Merason until I’ve lived with it for some time and go back later to the Gryphon DAC. I suspect that whether I end up liking it or not is going to be dependent on two things: whether I am too attached to the coloration of the Gryphon DAC, and whether the Merason has enough detail for me.

Just did a quick check in. Nothing much changed from last night. Maybe a bit more punchlines and rhythm in the bass but not sure.

The sound with the DAC1 on my basic RCA cables (big caveat) is not similar to the sound when the N20 was in my system, even if it sounds that way. Not at all. The N20 had an incredible density and flashiness that is not at all how the DAC 1 sounds (yes I realize it’s weird to be comparing a DAC and a server!). The N20 had an incredible blackness to the sound, and the effect reminded me of when I demoed an Audioquest Niagara 5000. Again, the Merason has none of this. And as above, there is no clamping of the upper frequencies.

I am starting to see in the Merason what reviewers have been referring to “rightness” of the sound, even if performance isn’t all out through the roof.

I can see how people say that this DAC encourages you to listen to music and says, “stop worrying about all that HiFi stuff”. It feels like that old pair of jeans that is maybe a bit worn but just fits right and is comfortable. Which may not be the most exciting thing in the world, but it’s just friendly and inviting. First time I fired up the N20 in comparison, to continue the analogy, it was like a brand new pair of designer jeans that needed assessments still for proper fit. Totally different sound with the N20!

I’ll also say this.  You know those odd tracks that never never quite sound right on your system?  Maybe it’s a me thing.  But u2’s One has always sounded weird on my system.  For the first time ever it sounds totally at ease with the DAC 1.