Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@lordmelton yes you’ve read between the lines correctly. Will let it run for a week and see. I also need to go back to my old setup for a few days to validate my findings, down the road. I find my perceptions sometimes change after this step. An example is when I tested the Nordost Valhalla 2 cables over my Audioquest Diamond cables. At first I was immediately ready to shell out for the new pricy cables. “Component level upgrade” and all that. But after a few days, and going back to the Diamonds later, I realized the jump in performance wasn’t as large as I had initially perceived. Certainly not a component level jump, at a component-level price! So I didn’t proceed.

Back to the Master Clock concept - isn’t that only of value if you have a DAC that allows for a clock input, so all your digital devices are using the same clock? Or does this benefit the N20 in isolation? I don’t think a stand-alone DAC is in the cards anytime soon.

Update:  I also don’t think a Master Clock is in the cards anytime soon given the price lol!!!  The Aurender MC20 I think costs more than all network players out there, aside from one (Taiko).

Okay, after some good warmup time, here are my initial thoughts. My Innuos setup and the N20 both excel in different areas!

As stated above I am in the earliest phase of assessment. So, my thoughts are sure to evolve. I think it’s pretty typical to immediately notice the good things for any new piece, but the less good things can require some soak time living with it for an extended period before they come out. So I may be more attuned to any slight differences in my Innuos setup having lived with it for some time. And currently I’m only comparing USB before my AES demo cable arrives (hopefully soon).

One note on the relative fairness of this “fight” - while the N20 costs more than my prior Innuos setup, with the Innuos Statement the tables would be turned and the Statement costs a fair bit more than the N20. Not that pricing is the be all and end all, but it’s sort of like how boxers have a “reach” advantage/disadvantage vs opponents. In my case the N20 has the advantage.

Overall, I’m relieved I hear a big difference. I would have been disappointed but not surprised had I not heard much of a difference. But I do! One big caveat is that I think my preferred player is system dependent, and that my preference would likely have been different in my old system before my upgrades last year.

Innuos Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB reclocker :

• Someone in another forum had said Innuos “is the closest thing to a concert hall experience”. That one note from one individual stood out. Because I always thought my system sounded like a concert hall, where the listener is set back from the performers. I always found the vocals to be set back in the 3D mix of instruments. I wasn’t sure how I felt about this effect - with some music it was brilliant. I always thought that the effect was due to my speakers but that one person’s comment stuck out for me. Sure enough, with the N20, this effect disappeared and the music is more “front row” now. Currently I’m preferring this effect but it could be just as a novelty.
• My Innuos setup has better mid and high frequency resolution. There is no question. I can hear air, breath, and raspiness come through with vocals much clearer with Innuos. Maybe this difference will change as my N20 warms up more.
• My Innuos setup has a bigger front to back soundstage. I’m not sure I actually like that fact, as currently I’m enjoying the immediacy of the Aurender.
• The Innuos setup has bigger (but not better) bass, in terms of going lower! I’m not certain this would be true if I measured it, but the way bass is presented between the two, that’s what my ears hear. Reserve judgement until you see the N20 counterpoint on bass below.

Aurender N20

• Number one biggest thing I notice is that everything is smoother and with less edge across all frequency bands. Very inviting.
• To use crutch-words: “organic”, “good musical flow”, “natural”, vs my prior Innuos setup. This is the one that is harder to put into words. Overall I can get into the music easier and it takes me further away from focusing on HiFi pyrotechnics. Not literal pyrotechnics thank goodness. It’s a simpler sound, more essential. Sorry if these aren’t descriptive enough as I’m describing the effect on me rather than the attribute of the sound…
• Slightly more engaging sound - all frequencies delivered with a bit more energy/conviction (but still smoother than the Innuos setup). This leads to more “snap” to the music, with better PRAT. The effect on me is that it seems like the music is playing faster even though it’s not.
• Front to back soundstage is not as deep - vocals forward, presented more evenly (and I think, naturally) with other instruments. Don’t get me wrong the soundstage is still impressively deep. The width I think is the same, but one thing is that the Innuos has more crispness to electric guitars on the very edge of the stage whereas the Aurender has more meat/fleshiness.
• While the Aurender seems to have less overall bass (subjectively speaking), the bass is more satisfying and I don’t feel like I am missing anything. The bass is more tuneful and with more rhythm. It integrates better with percussion because of this. I think this leads to delivery of music as more of a cohesive whole.

Overall I am currently enjoying the Aurender more, but remember it’s the new piece! Which always has the initial advantage over the old piece due to human bias. I’m sure I’ll uncover nits with time. Maybe I’ll start missing the better resolution of the Innuos. The Aurender sounds less fussy and more simplistic, and is more “down to basics” and getting all that right. The Innuos is more about doing all of the range of things audiophiles talk about at a more extreme level, in terms of ultimate resolution and depth of soundstage. Again I cannot say that I prefer one brand over the other, this is just a comparison of the two particular setups from each brand. Finally, I’ll say this: my system has become very, very revealing after my upgrades last year. Possibly/probably too revealing as my system has become ultra finicky with respect to speaker positioning, quality of power, etc. Had I not applied these upgrades and with a less revealing system, I think I may have preferred the Innuos setup as it might have squeezed some more detail out of my less revealing system. The Aurender may have been a tad too smooth before. Takeaway is stating the obvious - my preference is almost surely system dependent.

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Regarding network switches, I do have the Innuos PhoenixNet in the chain with the Aurender, as I did with the prior Innuos gear. I find it helps a lot - ironically it brings the Innuos setup slightly in the direction of the N20’s sound. Why do these things help? Who knows. But I think it has to do with reducing noise introduced in the chain that ends up on your speakers. Every cable in our systems will introduce some level of noise, and putting in mitigations for that have an additive effect on what ends up playing on your speakers.

Or as I tell my non audiophile friends when they ask what that box does: “It cleans the filthy internet so my stereo sounds better”. Might as well lean into the crazy that goes with being an audiophile.

My PhoenixNET is fed by a 50ft cable from a generic Ethernet switch in my house’s smart panel downstairs. I’ve wondered what might happen if I were to replace the Dlink Ethernet switch in my smart panel with a second PhoenixNET, so the PhoenixNET at my stereo is starting with an already “clean” signal. Not something I’m planning on trying, but…

Thanks for sharing @pokey77 , good story! And yes I’m totally with the general advice that things will likely change with a week or more of run in.

One of the other network players I want to try, the Antipodes K50, is widely known to take many months before it fully settles, with very sudden improvements that show up every 1-2 months during this time. Word is it can be a bit harsh prior to this burn in. Not sure if that is specific to the K50, but I’ve heard similar accounts from owners of the new Innuos Statement Next Gen. Apparently it is the power supply that needs this breakin the most.

The best thing so far about thenN20 is that some of the things I found to be less desirable about my system’s sonics that I had attributed to my speakers are resolved now (sorry speakers I love you again….). That was a nice surprise. The question is whether, over time, I’ll notice other less desired elements, simply from getting attuned to the sound more!

The other wildcard as mentioned is the demo AES cable that is en route. Aurender’s marketing and some on this thread had suggested that the AES cable will sound superior, so it may or may not be a game changer. Aurender’s marketing language suggests the advantage of their high precision clock with AES will drive the DAC and be better than USB.

I’m really interested in getting my hands on that AES cable after reading Aurender’s marketing pitch on how much better it is than USB. Which I know is just marketing.

It’s clearly aimed at differentiating from Innuos who only do USB - except for the fact that their brand new Pulse products support AES, and my guess is all their new products will as well.

As others have said what matters is which interface they’ve invested in. But here’s the thing - if Aurender has invested in making AES good such that they recommend it over their USB interface, and the USB interface sounds good, then how much better will AES be? I’ve seen countless accounts of AES being far better than USB on the Antipodes K50, but I’ve not seen this as widely mentioned for Aurender.  Yet it seems Aurender and Antipodes are aligned on prioritizing AES.  Aurender claims:

Ultra-High-Quality SPDIF and AES/EBU Digital Audio Outputs

The N20’s AES/EBU, BNC, Coaxial, and Optical outputs provide a superior musical presentation with some DACs due to the superior clock and oscillator. As opposed to asynchronous USB connections, where the DAC pulls packets of information from the player, N20’s SPDIF audio outputs push the signal out to the DAC at intervals defined by the on-board precision OCXO clock. With a clock this precise, once heard, you’ll want to use it.

@richtruss , yeah I wouldn’t even have enough ports for the rest of my house with the PhoenixNET. And unfortunately, 100 mega-quality-bits doesn’t cut it for other applications. In my fantasy that I’ll unlikely try, I’d connect the second PhoenixNET to my whole-house switch in the smart panel. The PhoenixNET would only have the one audio line coming out of it.

Funnily enough, I just saw a post in another forum that said someone suggested adding a second PhoenixNET to their system and they claimed it was transformative. They also added a PhoenixUSB though. Who knows. Was just a thought.

@sns , I wholeheartedly agree that you and others may prefer the Innuos. It’s even possible I may shift back to preferring the Innuos after some time. They just sound SO different, so there is some degree of novelty bias at play here I’m sure.

While I would still characterize what I hear just as I described, I have to say how I feel about those differences has changed slightly, having listened to a wider scope of music on the N20. On some tracks, I’m missing the Innuos setup. What am I missing? Mid and upper transparency, higher highs, lower lows. The N20’s more “focus on the basics” approach sounds superb on a lot of material and is a bit of a relief, but on other material it can sound a bit flat and unengaging.

Can’t recall who said the N20 will do “razor edged guitar solos” (and that the MU1 wouldn’t), but I actually find the N20 tones down guitar solos quite a bit in comparison with the Innuos setup where guitar solos leap out at you.

Innuos Zenith Mk2 + PhoenixUSB - expansive sound, focus on full frequency range, transparency, and deep soundstage.

Aurender - organic, relaxed, denser upper bass and mid bass with more energetic presentation in these specific areas, fleshy vocals.

A bit concerned that after testing the Aurender I will want a blend of what Innuos does best and what Aurender does best - with none of the bad parts of either! At this point, I’m actually quite surprised at the lower resolution of the N20, which I never would have noticed if I hadn’t had the experience with there Innuos setup.

I would not go so far as to say one is more “pure” than the other without manipulating the source. Not saying that’s not true, just that I don’t know.

The AES cable with the N20 may change everything, when I receive it. We’ll see. Also, regarding burnin, the Statement Next Gen and the K50 are known to have point-in-time “step” increases in performance after MONTHS of use, with no change in between these points. People even report a temporary decline in the Statement Next Gen just before the final bump up to stabilizing on the max performance. Not sure if any of this applies to the N20. For what it’s worth, I’ve only noticed a change over the first few hours of use; it’s sounded the same since then so far.

Very glad I took this approach to testing network players. I’m in no hurry to return a demo to a shop and say I’m not interested. I can continue to test over a long term in a relaxed manner. It’s a fun process so far, and I’m still totally stunned how different the two setups sound from one another.

One thing I forgot to mention - the N20 throws the soundstage so differently that I actually had to adjust my speaker positions! Vocals were sounding a bit off on some tracks, and I found that toeing my speakers inwards, much further than my Innuos setup prefers, was required to fix the slight soundstage issues.

@lalitk ​​@lordmelton , thanks for the tips on the master clock.  I’m intrigued.  But I also worry that I’ll feel like I’ll be repeating the experience of adding the USB reclocker, where I went “yeah, big difference.  But I wish I just went with one single box that had this level of performance.”

If I were to go for the master clock I’d worry I’d keep upgrading and end up with a taiko extreme or something, lol….

Just realized that the differences I’ve observed between the Innuos and Aurender setups I tested are not dissimilar to the differences that HiFi Advice has noted between the MU1 and K50 (for followup comments after revisions from both companies).  Interesting…

@lordmelton, not sure if it matters but my Dragons are both the high current versions (powering my amp and Torus). I am very familiar with the differences between the Hurricane and the Dragon, at least for my amp. The Hurricane is actually a pretty good cord as well. For me the Hurricane really just had less stage depth and a slightly elevated “glow” in the lowest frequencies, vs the Dragon. I’m also not sure how to disable the power on my AQ Diamond USB cord, without ruining it. In theory it won’t help, as my Gryphon DAC features a supercap acting as a battery to provide clean and stable power for USB.

For now I’m just letting it run and checking in once in a while. The real party begins when my demo AES cable shows up. Seems Aurender really pushes AES over USB, like Antipodes. It’s one of the first points on the features list on its web page. And MU1 but that’s different because of the FPGA oversampling. I’ll do way more intensive critical listening when my demo AES arrives. Trying to be patient as I figure the N20 needs some continued run time. In all likelihood though, the prior owner almost certainly must of run it over 200 hours in the two months he had it on his rack.

So far, I have solutions from Innuos and Aurender - both are truly great in different ways from one another, and both have drawbacks that are also different from one another! The more I listen to one the more respect I have for the other! I’ve never experienced an audition quite like this! Makes me wonder if the K50 or the MU1 might be the goldilocks solution. But yeah, the AES cable with the N20 should stir the pot. The fact that the N20 is helping spotlight what the Innuos does well is making me consider the Statement (not the next-Gen, too pricey). Not really a fan of the two-box solution. And, I feel like new models could possibly be around the corner? Possibly with AES support as the Pulse series has? Who knows. Probably a year or two still. Also, I have a hunch that putting the listener further back from the performers may be a “house sound” sort of thing for Innuos. Which is actually quite good. But, I think I’m looking for more of a front row experience. The Aurender does that. I’ve also read that the Antipodes really does that - puts you where the performers are and the soundstage envelopes around you. Moreso than the MU1. But all that is just a few common experiences I’ve read on HiFi Advice and also from some owners comments.

Thanks for the tip, but I am paranoid about keeping my contact surfaces of my cables pristine! I’d prefer not to gum up the contacts with tape. I’ve actually purchased some Deoxit G100L to apply to all of my plugs and connectors, on the advice of some trusted professionals in the industry (and verifying that every enthusiast who uses it swears by it). We’ll see, it hasn’t arrived yet.

I read an unsubstantiated post on this forum that claims the N200 USB circuit is identical to the N20’s USB circuit. If true that would, in all probability but not certainly, put the N20’s USB performance on par with the Innuos Zenith, without the PhoenixUSB Reclocker. It stands to reason given that Aurender seems to nudge people towards AES which employs the high precision clock. I know every DAC is different though and in some cases USB may not be better. I’ll give the AES a go, give it a few weeks (I’ve read accounts for other devices that if AES hasn’t been used, it’s circuits must be burned in even if the rest of the unit is burned in) and decide either to list my Innuos boxes or the N20, whichever is in the lead, so I can try the next one.

I did throw some Herbie’s Tenderfeet under the N20. Made a huge improvement in coherence and the vertical size of the stage. But, they do that for all components you stick them under! I just expect and demand that effect when I use them now. You do need to be experiment with placement, as different placements can cause sound imbalances, rather amazingly.

Haven’t mentioned it yet but Conductor is rather good. Better be since it’s the only option! Works well; no glitchiness.

Oh and here is a weird thing - removing the PhoenixNET from the chain and plugging the N20 direct to the wall with an Audioquest Diamond Ethernet cable sounds best with the N20. Mid and top end opened up, just slightly. I did find with my Innuos chain the PhoenixNET added smoothness and relaxed things, so I guess with the N20 it is already relaxed and smooth (to my ears and in my system) and going further in this sonic direction is overdoing it.

Back to the master clock, I hear what you are saying and totally believe you in regard to the results, and if I tried one I’d probably want one. But I just don’t want an added box to my digital chain, just as I don’t want my reclocker as a separate box. Want to keep things simple, and reduce my cabling.  If AES totally does the trick with the N20 though, and I end up going with Aurender in the end, it would nevertheless be nice to have the master clock option in case I feel differently in the future.

“If N20 survival hinges upon how you hear things through the AQ AES cable, I suggest you try atleast two-three different AES cables from the brands I mentioned in one of my earlier posts.”

@lalitk yes, I was thinking about that.  My plan is to see how the first AES cable goes and see how much difference it makes, before moving to a different brand.  Unfortunately my dealer (only dealer in town) doesn’t like shipping anything unless it’s not a sale.  For some reason, they make an exception for Audioquest cables.  They said something about them making shipping easier, and Audioquest pays for shipping. And that not all cable companies do.  I offered to pay shipping for demos, but they didn’t like that approach for some reason.   I will need to call around for other cables.  Not that it means anything but I am quite familiar with the difference between the AQ Diamond USB and a small handful of other brands of USB cables. It’s also a fairly resolving cable with a good frequency range that doesn’t really have much of it’s own character at all.  It doesn’t call attention to itself.  It’s not what I call liquid or organic.  It lets the character of surrounding components come through unaltered.  Not sure if those qualities apply to the AES version as well.

That said, someone else mentioned that there was not as much of a variance in AES cables as there is in USB.  But IF the AQ cable doesn’t pull the N20 clearly ahead of my Innuos gear (I’d say it’s a tie when using USB, they are both great at different things), then I’ll source more cable demos.

@sns The Cable Co doesn’t lend to Canada unfortunately.  

@lalitk after your post I decided to reach out to Sablon.  They have a 28 day return policy (from shipping though, so not much time), on anything that is more standard.  Hopefully their AES cable is standard.  That way, I can try the Sablon and also the Audioquest Diamond AES cable.  Whichever is best, I will keep regardless of how I feel about the N20 and my existing Innuos gear in the end.  I will need an AES cable for my eventual test of the K50 and MU1.

While waiting for my AES cable(s) I am deliberating on which server to try next.  While I could in theory go and buy one of the used K50’s for sale, I am forcing myself to be patient!  On the other hand there may be none available when I am ready to try one.  But I want to let the N20 have all my focus first.  And I truly don’t know at this point which will be leaving first - the Innuos boxes or the N20.  I can say with confidence at this point however that if I could only use USB, I’d keep the Innuos for it’s higher bandwidth (higher highs with more transparency and lower lows).  But there is a high probability the AES cable may change that with the N20 pulling ahead.  Can’t wait to find out.  Getting impatient!

@lalitk

“I couldn’t help asking….you grew impatient within a week with N20, how are you going to cope with K50 long break-in 😊”

I know, right? I thought of that and it’s one of the advantages of springing for a used one rather than going for a month long trial of a new one!  I was even telling myself that is why I should buy one now, so it can be running while I am focusing on the N20!

The reason I’m impatient is that I think this has been long enough to conclude that the N20’s USB won’t cut it for me, regardless of the fact that it does some things very, very well, and I don’t know when the AES cable will arrive. My focus will return to the N20 IF the performance improves as expected with the AES cable. Right now there just isn’t anything I can do with the N20 with USB that will change how I feel which is why I’m impatient :)

I think the N20 has opened up ever so slightly more as I’ve been running it constantly, but if it has, it is very, very subtle. Pretty sure the prior owner must have done the burnin.

@lalitk I think you are right that the PhoenixUSB may have spoiled me. While it’s possible I could fall back to preferring Innuos, if I did that I’d move to the Statement (non next gen), which should be slightly better than what I have now, in a single device solution, as it not only has the PhoenixUSB embedded, it also has embedded Ethernet regen, on top of all the power supply benefits.

But, if I understand correctly, the USB output’s of the N20, K50, and the MU1 are not really optimized, while their AES interfaces ARE optimized, as intentional design choices. The N20’s AES output has the benefit of leveraging their high precision clock (so should be a better comparison with the PhoenixUSB performance), whereas the N20’s USB has no such optimization that I am aware of. Aurender’s own marketing says exactly this on the N20’s web page.

Mark Jenkins of Antipodes has talked in interviews about USB being flawed compared with other interfaces, and while I’m no expert, I think he’s likely correct, but I also think you can engineer around such flaws as Innuos (and I hear Taiko) have done. It’s just that Aurender, Antipodes, and Grimm didn’t bother. And Innuos totally didn’t bother with AES at all - until their latest line of products (Pulse).

So I think the fight isn’t fair for the N20 yet, as currently I’m comparing its non-optimized USB interface with Innous’ heavily optimized USB interface. The AES cable will allow me to compare all solutions on even terms. I think Innuos is likely king of the hill by a long shot when it comes to USB, aside from Taiko.

That’s all my running theory at least, to be substantiated through my testing….

So far, the N20 testing has really helped solidify what I like and don’t like about my Innuos setup. It’s true I had taken its strengths for granted:

Strengths I want to keep:

-Transparency

-Bandwidth (higher highs and lower lows)

-Soundstage Depth

Weaknesses I want to fix:

-Sets the listener back from the soundstage (not a flaw, this is just based on my preference)

-Could have better focus on all tones, with more solidity, and to use the word HiFi Advice likes to use, “incisiveness”.

-Not sure if I want this quite yet: could have slightly more “meat on the bones” in terms of an added richness and organic sound. The reason I’m not sure if I want this is that I don’t know if achieving this is possible without sacrificing the other qualities I’m after. I’m quite certain based on accounts of others that the K50 and N20 (with AES) are the only options that could achieve this. The question is, at what cost.

I do feel based on accounts of others that the MU1 or the K50 could possess have these all covered.  I probably shouldn’t discount the Statement too.

@lordmelton , interesting results of your AES testing, thanks. Not suggesting this is the correct way to think of it, but Audioquest’s AES Diamond cable costs 2.5X their Diamond USB cable (both silver). Just raising the question of whether an equally priced AES and USB cable should be expected to perform equally or not. Audioquest’s pricing suggests not, but I really don’t know.

@sns , I edited your statement for accuracy:

"I’d be very interested in your comparison of AES if when you did get the Antipodes"

Trying to stay committed to giving each of these three and the Statement too (which Nuno at Innuos has actually directly offered to send to my local dealer, who is not an Innuos dealer, for me to try).

I’ve been deliberating whether to continue with the "buy used" route where possible (the MU1 may not be possible), or to try to switch to working direct with dealers/companies to get a demo. From a cost perspective, it’s not all that different really, after I compared all the possible outcomes. Maybe it’s just me, but I’m always apprehensive of involving dealers/vendors unless I’m fairly confident I’ll buy a particular product, and involving 3-4 vendors in this with all the shipping involved seems excessive to ask of them all, when I will in the end only buy one of them. I did conduct a Shunyata vs Audioquest shootout for power cables where they each sent me demos, and I ensured both companies knew what I was up to at the outset. Shunyata in particular was extraordinarily helpful through the process with proactive communication from Richard, and for the most part I chose Audioquest only because of personal preference.

As I said, Innuos generously offered to send a demo Statement for me. With Antipodes I’ve heard they offer 30 day returns when buying direct, which would work for me. And Grimm is more restrictive - they offer a 14 day return policy as part of their purchase contract, but only from the time they ship the unit, and they require tracking info when returning the unit for proof it was returned on time. I guess it’s doable but that would be rushed.

If I proceed with buying the used K50 for sale now, it means I may need to involve my dealer with the Innuos and Grimm servers (I think we get around the import duty if it’s sent to my dealer, or at least I never directly pay for it), and I’d feel bad if I chose the K50, or the N20 for that matter, in the end.

Trying to figure out the most reasonable path to trialing all 4 servers without putting out the companies and dealer too much. I’m totally willing to pay for shipping and their time helping set this up, but I don’t think that really helps from their perspectives.

This was inevitable but I sent an offer for the used K50. Will figure out the path forward for trialing the other streamers later. Should be a good offer as it’s been listed a while. But I won’t proceed if they counter.

Hopefully I can get my analysis of these products completed before the recession hits. Otherwise I’m prepared to lose some cash. These products at this level will sit listed on the used market for many months at the best of times. Interestingly that used MU1 seems to have sold in a flash. At least it’s not listed anymore. Sort of wished I just scooped up all three lol…. It’s a very satisfying process to validate these products and be confident of their respective strengths and weaknesses.  And, learning a bit more about my own preferences in the process.

@lalitk yes, that is correct.  I have two sets of toe in positions marked with a sharpie on the floor!  I have Herbie’s gliders so it’s easy to move the speakers between the two positions.

Yep. Going back to the N20 (with presumed limited USB performance so not a full test), it’s just so much more solid sounding, with a nice warmth to it. Less going on with imaging though. And a very subtle high-hat on one particular track is totally audible with the Innuos gear, and not so much on the N20’s USB output. If the AES cable will help the N20 with high and low resolution, with a smidge better separation and depth, the N20 may very well be the winner yet.

As another aside, connecting the PhoenixUSB to the N20’s USB output, adds a touch of transparency but there is something lost. Less warmth, less “upbeatness”. Definitely prefer the N20 without the PhoenixUSB.  And without the PhoenixNET as I mentioned before.  It’s like it’s allergic to Innuos gear.

Tried going back to my Innuos boxes for the first time after a few days. Wow. Just blown away by the added resolution, transparency, air, and separation. Voices and instruments hanging in space etc. But at the same time, on my “revealing” system I am missing some groundedness/focus that the N20 offers. The image with the Innuos setup is not as “locked in place”. I also suspect the Aurender is warm leaning while the Innuos is strictly neutral, which makes some material a tad thin (but never bright). Will see how the N20 fares once I get the AES cable. And hopefully, the K50 as well!

Nothing new, just really validated my prior assessments.

I can imagine how the new Statement Next-Gen sounds, based on reports, and based on my own experience with lesser Innuos products. I bet it fixes all the issues I have aside from the touch of warmth/richness that I seem to want.

@ghasley , I probably wouldn’t have believed you on having to reset up my speakers had I not already found the need to do that between the N20 and the Innuos products!  At least I knew from what I was hearing that the speakers needed an initial adjustment with the N20, rather than just assuming the N20’s imaging was messed up, which is not the case at all.  So yes I am expecting further tweaks will be needed once the AES cable goes in.  And the cable will need burning in itself.  My dealer is closed Mondays but I’ll call tomorrow asking for an update on the AES cable.  There is a tendency for an item I’m waiting for to magically arrive at my dealer the very same day I call to ask for an update / remind them. 
 

Still waiting to hear back from Sablon (although I first emailed on Friday), and I am poking Jorma again too.  Seems hard to get their attention; business must be good.

Lastly, it’s not a deciding factor at all, but if the N20 wins out, I must say that I like the screen.  Even if I’ve had it off in critical listening mode for the most part.  And it’s the only device I’m looking at that has one!

I was waiting until this morning to confirm, but the N20’s bass has become fuller rather suddenly. It’s not as big overall compared with the Innuos boxes at this point, but now it’s got so much more drive and solidity in the bass than the Innuos, despite not being as big and well defined. At this point I’d choose the Aurender’s bass over the Innuos bass (which is still more precise, refined, and accurate, but with less drive, focus, and solidity). The N20’s mid and top end still sounds the same as before. But wow, that bass drive is impressive.  There is a grip there that didn’t exist 1 day prior.

It’s for reasons like this that when I get the AES cable, I plan to use it at least for a solid month prior to comparing to a third server like the K50, should I acquire one now. As I said above I’ve heard accounts that the AES circuits do not automatically break in along with the rest of the unit if AES is not used during initial breakin. If I’m not mistaken I think the original owner used USB so the AES may never have been used. Same goes for my DAC’s AES interface.

With the K50, if the seller agrees to my offer (haven’t heard back so maybe they didn’t accept), it’s simply to acquire a used K50 at a decent price while one is available used. My focus won’t shift for some time yet!

@ghasley , and others, good advice - thanks. I have no intention to move on to another server anytime soon, even if I end up acquiring another right now. My thought is I can hook the K50 up to a cheap DAC I have and just run it for months. I’ve heard the K50 cand sound rough for a while.  I definitely have not heard the N20 at its best yet, without the AES cable.  I fully expect it will clearly pull ahead of my Innuos setup once I try multiple AES cables.  The fact that in can almost tie my Innuos’ heavily optimized USB with its non optimized USB is very telling.  I still wonder if the N20 will actually be just right in the end, for me, once I try the AES cable.  It has a touch of warmth and that solidity I’m after.  Just need a bit more transparency.

@lalitk , i didn’t mean to imply the imaging was not good with the N20.  What’s happening is purely related to the lack of upper end transparency and resolution compared with the Innuos gear.  The imaging is all intact with the N20.  But without that last touch of air and resolve, you don’t get that effect of suspended in space vocals and instruments as much as with the Innuos.  It’s there, just not as much.  Switching to the Innuos it’s more 3D - not to say the N20 is not 3D, it is for sure.

And @ghasley , I do have sharpie marks on my floor for the EXACT speaker positions, much to the chagrin of my wife. All I had on hand was a red sharpie, so my wife was like “OMG IS THAT BLOOD”…. She thought maybe I had truly taken my hobby too far lol…..

I find if the speakers are just a few millimetres off, things sound different for sure. Sometimes to the extent that if something sounds slightly off, I can simply wiggle one speaker without repositioning and the problem can be fixed. I put the sharpie marks at the circumference of the Herbie’s gliders that I use.

I used to use painters tape as you suggested, but I found it to be less precise than drawing 4 small lines around each of the gliders.

Update:  I should also mention that my wife was okay with the sharpie on the floor when I proved to her it comes right off with a dab of acetone / nail polish remover, without ruining the floor in any way!

Yes, I found getting the positioning the best it could be before the tweaks became less frequent took a lot of incremental adjustments over a long period of time. I’m sure I could further refine the speaker positions with the N20, but the towed in positions solved the initial image issues I had observed.

I had two issues with the painter’s tape. First, the edge is flat, when I’m measuring the exact position of the round Herbie’s slider. The sharpie enables me to apply a small amount of curvature, by tracing the slider at four points around the slider. This allows me to “seat” the speaker’s four sliders more accurately within these small curves, ensuring the desired position is re-achieved. I can then have several incremental markings that I can flip between when experimenting with minute changes. The other issue I had with tape is, over time, sliding over it and damaging its position. Anyhow, that seems to have worked for me with my prior Innuos setup, albeit over the course of months (with intensive effort in the first week or two of positioning, followed by intermittent tweaks over subsequent months). I’m satisfied that I have achieved the optimal positioning with the Innuos gear. Until something changes in the system or room, as you pointed out!

Yes, time of day totally matters too…. I still have better performance at night after midnight, with better special separation and depth. Nothing unusual there!l, but annoying nonetheless!

One thing I noticed about positioning. I gave up on measuring until the very end. I find that going on my ears usually results in a near symmetrical (and a few times exactly symmetrical) position for the speakers. If there is a slight discrepancy at the end, I then adjust one speaker at a time while marking their original positions, to see which one should move to match the other.

My latest process, which is constantly evolving. But for me personally my current process is way ahead of what I used to do.

Speaking of “pumping the brakes”, one seller responded that their K50 is confirmed by Antipodes as being the V1 hardware, prior to the major 2021 revision in response to the supply chain issues they were facing. I don’t think there is any consensus on how the sound changes, other than both versions sound great. The revisions were major as I mentioned, to the clock, power supply and other areas, so there must be some degree of sonic difference even if one is not “better”. That said, I think I’d still want to be testing the latest rev.

The other seller hasn’t got back to me on my offer. Will let it go. Just trying to line up opportunities for the future for testing the other two, as opportunities arise to buy used. At this level, opportunities only come by once in a while. My focus remains on taking my time getting to know the N20 regardless of what happens!  The recent  development with respect to bass is rather exiting.  The whole presentation has a lot more presence and energy as a result.

If only I could get Sablon and / or Jorma to respond in regard to the AES cable. Will try calling them next.

And they refuse returns for cables in many circumstances. And generally frown upon the concept.

Also I find that being in Canada, brands often prefer dealing directly when there is no distribution in my country available. That was the case with Innuos, where they preferred to work through a dealer of my choice. Which is great because I don’t directly deal with import duties with that approach.

Also, Jorma’s website lists “Vana Ltd” as their distribution on NA.  I have an open ticket with them I opened over a week ago.

@ghasley totally get it. First, I do expect to get back most of the value of the devices I try but do not keep. Also I wouldn’t actually go further than the K50 now without first unloading one of the other servers I have, even if I “wish” I could just get all three so I have them ready to be tested. Having just the next one waiting in the wings is enough!

Buying cables can rack up the cost very quickly if it doesn’t work out and I end up having to buy 3-4 pricey cables. Not sure if this is correct but I have a hunch these may be harder to resell as well.

If I could buy a good used AES cable with reasonable confidence that it’s not counterfeit, I would. At least my Audioquest Diamond demo should be arriving anytime at my dealer, hopefully this week.

In short, I’m not about throwing my cash around, unless I’m reasonably confident I can get the cash back, even if it takes some time. Plus, the interaction with The Cable Co wasn’t the best and I wouldn’t want to go through them - will leave it at that.

If I’m lucky, when all is said and done I will not even have spent the full amount of the new server, as I’ll be able to sell everything I’m not keeping, including my existing Innuos gear.  In reality I know that might be a stretch.  Especially due to the pending recession, which may put major delays in selling.

Back to the N20. Have been listening all night while working on my laptop. I know, not ideal (the working part). It is just so enjoyably immediate, so condensed (not compressed), so inviting with a touch of warmth, and so opposite really from the Innuos’ open expansive neutral and ultra-detailed sound. The N20 has a totally different take, that is highly musical. With the added bass that has arrived it adds some drive that was missing before. I am not demanding a solution that has all of the upper frequency resolution of the Innuos. Just halfway between the N20 and the Innuos would be fine. With a touch of high frequency resolution I think the 3D depth and spatial positioning would as a byproduct get better too. If this were achieved I’d be happy with this solution if it was the last server I owned. I find speaker positioning is far more finicky with my Innuos (in my revealing-leaning system), as the slightest bit off can just totally ruin things. The N20 is far more forgiving.

Starting to think the Innuos setup might give me too much transparency. It’s mind blowing how much inner detail it adds when I switch back to Innuos; it’s almost like a HiFi tech demo vs the N20 which has a more liquid and music-driven presentation. Another thing I blamed on my speakers was very poor off axis performance where if you move inches from the sweet spot the image starts falling apart. Not so with the N20. The image follows beautifully moving left to right. I’m still blown away at how a network player can impact these things. I had never realized that before.

Long story short the N20 is extremely enjoyable, especially on more intimate stripped down recordings which were just magical.  Moments where you forget about your stereo completely and it’s just the music.

Back to work and cable-hunting.  I think Sweden opens for business in a couple hours so may drop them a line.

So I asked my dealer for an ETA on the Audioquest AES cable, and lo and behold, it just arrived this morning. Like I said, happens every single time I check in for an update :)

Anyways at least I have an AES cable of decent quality to start burning in along with my N20’s AES circuits and clock.

@grannyring , for sure have read yours and other’s accounts of the improvements fuses can bring. I definitely plan to follow up on this when I get to the tweak phase. I’m sure based on the many accounts out there that the fuses would lift both the N20 and my Innuos gear. But my thinking currently is to see how I find each server on equal terms first.

I’m a terrible audiophile and really fell into this path not for the sake of the gear, but rather by my obsession with music as a teen, and struggling to find a stereo system that I didn’t find utterly grating and destructive to my enjoyment of music. I found I couldn’t spend $5k (decades ago) on a full scale system and have it be enjoyable. I tried everything I could going to dealers and found everything to be grating in some way. I succumbed to a $1,200 Yamaha mini system that actually sounded rather good for what it was, and wasn’t grating like those $5k full systems sounded to me. My daughter now has it in her bedroom after my sister gave it to her after I had given it to my sister.

The quest continues, but yeah, for me personally music comes first.

So far, the ONLY difference with AES on the N20 is that it has less of the upper frequencies that make it through, ve USB. It will be interesting to see how this progresses as the Audioquest Diamond cable is brand new with 0 hours, I don’t think the N20’s AES circuits have ever been engaged, and my DAC’s AES input has never been used.

I’m actually really glad I started with the Diamond AES cable, so I can compare as much as possible the differences between USB and AES using a truly equivalent cable. It’s quite remarkable how they just sound identical when I flip from one to the other, with the exception of more upper frequencies with USB. Other than that, I can’t detect any other differences whatsoever at this point.

I’m also realizing through this process with the N20 and Innuos that I too lean slightly warm side. I guess I knew that before as my Diablo 300 and DAC are slightly warm leaning, but I didn’t know that I’d also prefer slight bit of warmth in my network server.

The N20’s AES and USB outputs sound utterly identical now. @lordmelton I tried changing the output to “Professional” as suggested and there was no change. Aurender’s documentation states that this setting is to address compatibility issues with some DAC’s only and has no effect on sound quality whatsoever, and they imply most should not need to touch this unless they have compatibility issues.

At this point I’m preferring the N20 over the Innuos for its more solid and musical presentation. Still need that smidge more high frequency transparency and detail to get me there. Still more burnin to go of course. Planning two weeks of burn-in of the AES circuits and cable (I think the rest of the unit must be fully burned in at this point), 2-3 weeks of critical listening and living with it, then I’ll sell either the Innuos stuff or the N20 to make way for the next comparison.

It is a bit odd and unexpected that there is absolutely no difference between AES and USB on the N20, despite the fact that the AES circuits and cable are still burning in. Given how different the N20’s circuits are between USB and AES, I would have expected SOME difference, regardless of whether better or worse! It makes me wonder if something else in my system is capping performance of the server across the board which causes both output types to sound the same. Can’t think of what though.  Even due to the fact that the AES cable is brand new, and that fact alone, should cause there to be differences but no!

@ghasley, totally agree that maybe the DAC is holding things back. Unlike many I have no problem being objectively critical of my gear even if I have an affection for it. One thing though is that the Innuos unquestionably has more high frequency detail (to an astounding degree that I was not expecting, and possibly having too much detail for my system) feeding the Gryphon DAC module. So I don’t see that it could be the DAC module that is capping this part of the performance at least.

Update: Unless, I realized, Innuos has done something in their USB implementation that gets past the Gryphon DAC module’s limitations somehow. As I mentioned above Innuos did feed the Diablo DAC module with the Statement Next Gen at the Munich show last year.  If that turns out to be the case, maybe I need to seriously consider trialing the Innuos Statement. Maybe I can even consider putting the funds I was planning to spend on the AES cable towards the Statement Next Gen if I were to buy it. Nuno at Innuos did offer to send me one for evaluation.  I just don’t think I’d get the touch of warmth I am looking for, but I’m guessing it would more than compensate in other ways.

@ghasley certainly no offence taken and I agree the Diamond is not what to turn to for “a touch of warmth”. But here’s the thing: the N20 with my Gryphon gear, with the Diamond cables connecting them, gives me all the warmth I’m looking for. All I’m missing is the top end transparency, which is certainly not caused by the Diamond cables.

I’ve read many accounts that the Shunyata digital cables are superb. I’ve also read that they lean towards a very smooth, liquid, organic sound. My philosophy (rightly or wrongly) has been to seek such sonic characteristics from components and have the cabling inject as little as possible of their own character. Others have the opposite approach. I read one post from a guy who loved his Shunyata Omega USB so much that he was basing his choice of system components around this cable.

Thanks All for the excellent advice and thoughts. Yes, I’d be even more surprised if the sound of the N20 doesn’t change over the next two weeks. I’m being patient now!

@sns yes my next step down the road will be to try an alternate server with AES. Maybe the best next server to try would be the Grimm, which is known for its transparency and neutrality. The reason why it might be best as the next in line is that if the Grimm doesn’t get me that extra degree of transparency, along with the expected bump in performance over USB, then I guess at that point I could reasonably conclude that I need to lean towards the Innuos Statement (possibly with a different cable as @ghasley suggested), if I am committed to the Gryphon DAC module. I really hope my quest doesn’t evolve to looking into streaming DACs… my aversion to that approach is really due to budget - which needs to be higher to factor in the cost of the DAC while achieving a comparable quality, not to mention that I would feel then need to buy a premium interconnect, likely for higher cost than the AES cables I’ve been looking at.

I’m confident the Statement wouldn’t have the issue with overall image solidity, but while my Innuos gear is clearly class-leading at transparency and detail, what comes through just isn’t as stable, solidified, saturated and focused as on the Aurender as I mentioned above. I could be mistaken but I’d be surprised if a cable fixed this issue. Especially because the N20 with those same cables absolutely does not have this issue.

@ghasley my upstream components include the Innuos PhoenixNET also with AudioQuest Diamond Ethernet cables on either side of it. I’ve been experimenting with and without the PhoenixNET with the N20. Still not sure I like the combination as there seems to be an additive effect towards overall smoothness, whereas this really helps with the Innuos Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB. Torus RM20 powering everything on a dedicated AC line, Audioquest Hurricane source cables powering everything except the Torus and Diablo300 which are Dragons.  My full system is listed on my profile.

@lalitk ​​@ghasley , just on the topic of my access to demo cables in Canada, you are right I probably don’t have access to test the variety of cables you have access to. I’ve tested the usual suspects though, for power cords and speaker cables: Audioquest, Shunyata, Nordost, Transparent, Cardas. I also used to have a pair of Clarus Crimson Biwires (fantastic cables) that I sold when I got the Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables. For the record, I didn’t find the Valhalla 2’s to be leaner or brighter than any of the other cables I tested, aside from Cardas which were too slow and warm in my system. The Nordost’s were however far more revealing and yes they have that crisp leading edge quality that Nordost are known for. Certainly no less bass than the others. The Valhalla 2 power cord and USB cable DID have noticeably less bass however. But the speaker cables don’t seem inhibited this way. I’ve read that Gryphon does poorly with extra high capacitance cables like Cardas and there are even reports of some Gryphon users blowing fuses when using Cardas with certain Gryphon amps.

As above, I’m seeking slight warmth in my components, and transparency and neutrality in my cables. My philosophy was to try not to use cables as tone controls for my gear, and to let my gear be the voice of my system. But maybe I need to be a bit more flexible in my philosophy, if I were to go the Innuos route. I did find a dealer who was offering a pretty great discount on a new Statement.

Back to the sound, I’ve noticed a class of music that Innuos clearly does better with than the N20 in my opinion - with the caveat that the AES cable and circuit is still presumably burning in. Music that has a sense of atmosphere driving it, music with air, space, and immersion. The N20 is simply not as immersive with its more dense and solid sound. In comparison these songs with Innuos have air and detail that leap out of my speakers to create an immersive space for the song to exist in. I used the word “expansive” earlier to describe this. Again, not saying the N20 isn’t good in this area but the Innuos is on another level on this particular dimension. I still think I prefer the N20 overall across all music because it has more focus, but I thought this was interesting. I found a dealer who offers excellent discounts on the Innuos Statement, so that could possibly unlock the top of the line Next Gen as an option. But only if I were to go straight to it and bypass buying the others so I don’t lose any cash buying and selling…. If I needed some more liquidity/organic smoothness, I could always resort to a nice Shunyata USB cable. Using “resort” only because it would be compromising my cable philosophy slightly.

It’s an avenue worth considering, because I’m fairly sure the only drawback I’ll find with the Statement Next-Gen is a slight lack of warmth, which is not the biggest deal and yes, can be addressed with cables. InnuOS certainly doesn’t seem performance-limited with my DAC when it comes to detail, air, and space. Wheras the N20 could possibly be limited, given the unexpected result of AES sounding absolutely identical to USB (there may be just the slightest bit of added high frequency sparkle with USB still over AES, not sure).

@sns , regarding the Statement Next-gen, I think I’ve come back down to earth a bit and realized I don’t want to go that route.  I asked myself the question of whether in 10 years, how will I likely feel about this very expensive component?  Would I be happy today with a top of the line server that came out in 2013?  The answers to these questions are obvious.  With a fair degree of certainty I can say that in 10 years I’ll be going through this process again.  The server is probably the component in our system that will age-out the soonest.  If I had unlimited disposable funds I’d consider this route but alas that is not the case!

I was also considering my priorities sonically last night.  What I realized is that while I like the “touch of warmth” in the server, that’s not the most important thing I’m missing from my current Innuos gear right now.  Everything with the Innuos, while ultra-detailed with dimensionality and space, is presented more delicately.  Snare drums hit lighter.  Everything hits lighter. Guitars are less tangible.  Vocals are more distant.  Everything is slightly less solid and present.  

Buying the N20 was so worth it if only for me to figure this stuff out and learn things about my Innuos gear that I wasn’t aware of - both it’s strengths and it’s flaws.

Speaking of noise reduction. I was trying to figure out what the Aurender’s signature sound reminded me of. Then it hit me. It’s a lot like the effect I noticed when trialing an Audioquest Niagara 5000 in my system. Super black background, focused sound, and as some folks feel about conditioners, a very slightly truncated top end. Ultimately I didn’t go with the Niagara because it’s transformers buzzed like crazy, just as some others have reported. My Torus RM20 is an isolation transformer that deals with noise, as opposed to a conditioner that filters noise, so the RM20 doesn’t have quite the same sonic traits as a traditional conditioner.

In Stereophile’s K50 review, they published a lot of info directly from Mark Cole of Antipodes. One key thing that really stands out that Mark said is that his competitors implement noise reduction techniques that result in compromised bandwidth. Mark said that Antipodes instead focuses on maximizing bandwidth. Naturally I was wondering which competitors Mark was referring to. But I could see it being Aurender, as his comments would seem to fit with my experience - great noise reduction, gives that “conditioner” effect with black backgrounds and solid sound, but slightly less top end transparency (at least that is my experience with true filtering conditioners).

@lalitk , yes, your experience with conditioners is consistent with mine. They change the tonal balance slightly as there is no way around it when filtering is involved. Others have advised me if this and even Nordost’s support team told me the same thing. And suggested Torus too, along with another consultant I was working with at the time. For many the tonal changes can be okay and it could possibly even help with those struggling with top end harshness or brightness. (Thankfully those days ended for me the moment I got my Gryphon). But for me, conditioners, and yes, the N20 too which IMO has a similar effect, gets you two steps forward and half a step back.  That doesn’t mean I don’t really enjoy this sonic effect.  The problem is I want to be able to have my cake and eat it too….

Isolation transformers are are beastly. Mine weighs 88 pounds. One issue I’ve had is that I found that each outlet on it sounds slightly different. Center vocals are the most noticeable variance between receptacles, with the vocals becoming narrower/sharper and more forward or wider and more recessed. Both extremes don’t sound natural, and a few receptacles are just right. Recently went through experimentation to determine the best configuration of what gets plugged where. Before I realized this, I was a devout “plug your amp direct into the wall” disciple. But I realized that the outlet I had been using on the Torus when plugging the amp in was not the best. Found a better sounding receptacle and now have everything going through the Torus. One of the few weird “gremlins” I’ve experienced in my system.

So….. based on my results so far, which server should I look to next - the K50 or the MU1?

Tonally rich, dense, immersive, smooth, organic and immediate (K50) or neutral, precise, transparent and “incisive” (MU1)?

Please don’t think I’m turning my attention from the N20; I’m not for a few weeks yet! But starting to wonder which to line up next. Considering just buying new from a dealer who can offer considerable discounts, particularly on the K50. The challenge trying to get demos from US dealers is that I’m in Canada. Tricky dealing with import duty etc. And if buying from the US I’ll be charged an unknown amount of import duty which can be massive. You guys down south have more options!

Also, I’ve at least at this point written Innuos off, because I’m not about to buy the Statement Next Gen, and I’ve read many accounts that the Statement is really close to what I have now with my current Innuos setup. Meaning it’s doubtful it will address the few nits I’m trying to address. Like I said, my current thinking, which could change.

I too was told by Innuos that the Pulsar was not finalized due to parts shortages. In late December Nuno Vitorino said that there was no launch date and that it would be a long time in the future. I wonder if they had to redesign the unit around more available parts like Antipodes did. @ghasley , maybe your reviewer friend had a pre-production sample? Also, unlike past Innuos devices the Pulsar does have have a AES output. Yes, I agree it is a very interesting product! But would require me to keep my Zenith as you said, if I wanted to keep server capabilities and I do.

Also @ghasley , again you guys in the US are lucky with lower taxes and duties - FAR lower - than us Canadians. Depending on the item we can be charged 25% of the value of the item when it shows up at the door! And you’ll never know exactly how much it will be when it shows up. This is the reason many dealers won’t ship demos to Canada.

It’s true I can fall into an over analysis pattern when going down an audiophile rabbit hole. It’s happened with cabling. In some cases it can be stressful because I’m not entirely sure I trust myself with the extremely subtle differences I’m hearing. But so far in this case that’s not happened, and it most certainly isn’t stressful! It’s been eye-opening in the best possible way. The reason why: the differences between my N20 and Innuos gear are blatantly obvious! Two totally unique presentations. It’s when I’m in a situation where I’m splitting hairs that things can get dicey, and that’s not needed in this journey - so far at least!

After 2.5 days of run-time on AES, so far there is STILL absolutely zero difference between AES and USB that I can hear. Speaking of reading up in advance, I was looking forward to some benefits here hopefully, but nope. Everything still sounds very good though!

I was thinking last night that I’d enjoy the N20 if it was my only choice and I had to keep it forever. I’d also be consistently be aware of the missing top end transparency and air, but despite that it simply connects with music better than the Innuos for me. For the record - I hadn’t read any of these traits in advance of noticing! :). And yes, I’ve absolutely read up extensively on the MU1 and the K50. When researching I tend to discount one-off comments, but when you hear a small army saying the same things, I do pay attention then. Knowing that I still could be the odd one out due to my system or tastes!

@ghasley you are right, the Pulsar is stated as being USB only!  I am fairly sure that before the delay of the Pulsar, the specifications for it were posted on the Innuos site along with the specs of the other two Pulse products.  And, I could have sworn that the Pulsar used to list AES as an output in its specifications section that no longer exists.  Not saying I’m certain about this, but if I’m right it would signal that a redesign of the Pulsar is in fact underway to deal with parts availability issues (that Innuos directly told me they were having with respect to the Pulsar).

@ghasley I hate the fact that I agree with your advice to try some well known and available DACS. In fact the Gryphon DAC module is the only premium DAC I’ve tried in my system, ever. So yes, there is no doubt it would be eye opening. On the other hand, @sns raised a great point - my current DAC has proven it can do everything I want - just not in the same server of the two I have experience with. Although it’s possible a different DAC would rectify this with one server or the other, or both.

Why do I hate this advice?

1. It requires another box if I enjoy the benefits and go this route
2. I don’t get to reduce my rat’s nest of cabling
3. Cost. I’d need to buy an expensive interconnect as well as an AES cable, probably. My assumption is I’d want to spend twice the amount of the AES cables I’ve been looking at (Jorma, Sablon, Audioquest Diamond) on analog interconnects to do justice to the system. I don’t have any experience with premium analog interconnects - do I have this right?

I know audiophiles joke about not exposing themselves to superior gear they can’t afford, as they will justify a way to afford it when they hear it. I’m afraid it might not be a joke in my case, but a legitimate concern lol!

I also feel like my current quest might truly turn into a true rabbit hole if I intro a new DAC. I’m not shutting down the concept of maybe pivoting in that direction. But my current thinking was to compartmentalize my quest to server testing only and finding the best that works with my current DAC. And maybe in the future looking into DACs. I understand that this does limit what I can learn from testing the servers though, with the DAC pairing being an essential element. Hmmm…

@ghasley , thanks and all good points. My incorrect hunches on interconnects was certainly not solidified since I have zero experience with standalone DAC’s and related interconnects, which is why I put out the hunch to be shot down :)

I get your point on reading accounts of others, but I disagree as this approach has in the past led me to products I would not have otherwise considered - like my Diablo. Never would have considered it without first getting a general idea of the voice of this amp. And my sentiments after living with it for years would reflect the consensus from others who have heard it. All generalizations of course, there is a level of understanding that goes beyond when you’ve heard it yourself.

My reading of others opinions (mostly forum posts) led me to look to the three particular servers I am considering in this thread - I would not have been turned on to them for consideration without this research. After I started this thread, I’ve maybe once or twice been back to reading accounts of others; the research is done :)

Anyways, my personal view is that you can make generalizations towards how a particular piece is voiced, despite the multitude of variables, with the caveat that this is merely a starting point to set you on the right direction, as there is so much more to unpack beyond these generalizations. Just my opinion and as I said, I never would have come across Gryphon without this process! I was NOT having luck home demoing separates at the time, I hated them all (yes, I was limited in what I could test). When I tried the Diablo in my system the first time it was a total revelation!

I know others don’t share this view, but hey, this process has worked for me in the past.

I am relieved to know I wouldn’t have to spend an arm and a leg on interconnects for a DAC….  Thanks again for the advice; I appreciate it!