Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@sns 

I owned an Innuos Zenith, I demo’d an Aurender (w20) and purchased the Grimm. Everyone should demo multiple streamers and buy what sounds best to them. In the event it is a tossup between two or more, then I guess the tiebreaker for someone could be parts count or weight? Are fewer parts or lower weight considered better or worse?

@nyev just a reminder to stay focused on your goals and your plan.

@nyev

Others may differ but I would suggest using reasonable XLR interconnects but to not go crazy. If you read up on the XLR standard, the standard was developed to minimize cable differences. I’ve had alot of good ones...did I hear differences between Mogami and Blue Jeans? No. Did I hear differences between Kimber and Transparent Ultra? Well....maybe? In other words, there may be some differences but certainly not enough (IMO) to merit a XLR interconnect cable quest at this stage of the game. If you have a pair of XLR interconnects, try those first.

RE: the Merason Dac1. I hope you enjoy it. Its a fine dac that punches well above its weight class. With that said, at its new retail price, it is a fair value for the money but no longer the "deal" that it was previously. This exercise will tell you where your Gryphon dac falls in a two dac shootout. What would be awesome, of course, would be if your Gryphon is preferable to the Merason. That would keep your goal of a two box, high performance setup in play.

@nyev I presently have a Shunyata Sigma v2 AES/EBU cable. I also have in house a Network Acoustics Muon AES/EBU cable to compare. I can’t reliably tell them apart in A to B and B to A testing. What does that mean for your application? Maybe nothing, maybe something…

Regarding interconnects, I have in the past settled in with Cardas or Transparent for XLR interconnects when I was using Audio Research ref gear. I am also fond of Audience interconnects and speaker cable although, since my setup today is single ended, I use a mix of Audience AU24 SX, Auditorium 23 and Audio Note. What does this mean for your application? Maybe nothing, maybe something.

@nyev I think in this instance you may be worrying about a problem that isnt a problem. Pick up some well made XLR interconnects and call it a day. There isn’t a great deal of sound difference between XLR interconnects…that’s a compelling reason to go XLR whenever possible.  I did hear a marked difference when I bought the Shunyata AES XLR digital cable to replace my previous one. The fact that the Network Acoustics AES XLR cable is very similar also speaks volumes given the price differential.

@nyev The Merason is 24/96 at the AES input. When I owned it I had an Innuos Zenith and fed it via USB. Since I never enabled Roon to upsample so I only fed it native resolutions. Regarding how it sounds with the Grimm MU1 at 2fs only, it will still sound good.

The Merason was suggested as a very solid, well executed, beautiful sounding dac for very reasonable money. It will give you a good idea of where on the performance bar your Gryphon dac board measures up. I suspect the MU1 will elevate the performance of your Gryphon dac via aes that you have yet to experience and the Merason dac will provide a very nice data point for comparison. IIRC the Merason runs dual mono with two dacs with true balanced outputs. Since the interconnects you’ve chosen exceed the $ value of the Merason, I also suspect that $3.5k-ish USD preowned invested in the Merason dac and the $5k-ish USD retail Shunyata interconnects will prove to be a less attractive value proposition than your Gryphon dac. (Subtle, tongue in cheek poke at you there haha) But this exercise should tell you alot. You can set the Grimm up as your roon core, attach the wonderful Shunyata Omega (v1 or v2?) AES/EBU cable to your Gryphon dac and you will hear all your Gryphon dac is capable of. You could also configure your Innuos as an endpoint feeding your phoenix and then via usb to your Gryphon dac and switch between the two streams conveniently.

Did I roll my eyes???? Yeah, I have to be honest I did a little bit LOL.

At the end of the day, try not to get too hung up on bit rates and focus on the sound. I predict that your opinion of your Gryphon dac will spike once you’ve heard it with the Grimm once its well run in. There are many roads to happiness with this exercise. Are there even higher performing solutions? Of course…for me, my system and my ears I found the Grimm to be first class experience for frequent flyer miles money. Let me clearly state though and you already know my feelings…dropping in $10kish USD of cables on the two sides of the Merason leaves me with heartburn although its your party, you get to design the menu.

@nyev 

Frankly speaking, I hope your jaw drops when you hear your Gryphon dac. It would be really cool if there is a unique synergy between a server/streamer and your Diablo/Diablo dac. That was your original goal and to most of us, it is irrelevant whether it is an Aurender, Innuos, Taiko, Antipodes, Grimm, etc, etc. Certainly there are fan boys of some gear and while I'm quite happy with my Grimm, anyone who has experienced a Taiko knows there is more there, there.

Everything comes at a cost and regardless of what we each can/can't/should/shouldn't spend, we each punch out where it makes sense for us. For instance, I have have a dedicated room on the lower level of our home. When the heater/air conditioner kicks on I can hear the air from the vents. If I am seriously listening, I adjust the thermostat so it wont come on but usually, I just could care less. I set up the system to sound great in a reasonably quiet room but houses typically have some occasional noise. Every time I think of going more elaborate with my setup, I ask myself how crazy will I be the next time the HVAC kicks on and then I pump the brakes.

I'm certain an Audio Note Ongaku sounds better than my amp...its just not relevant to my circumstance or enjoyment. Some Audiogoners may even squeal a bit and protest when you pick a piece of gear OVER the piece of gear they have. Who cares? While I hope the Grimm is a good fit for you, only you can decide what you like. As I've said earlier in the thread, none of the gear you are trying will sound broken...some just check your boxes, with your gear, in your room all run through the filter of your preferences. I've had good friends love something that I didn't and vice versa....horses for courses they say. I preferred Grimm in direct comparison to Aurender and Innuos. Others prefer the opposite....but something I have yet to see in the forums is "I thought the Taiko sounded broken, flat, horrible".

Regarding cables, If the difference made by inserting $5k interconnects into your system is worth it to you, then its worth it. Don't let anyone tell you any different. Its ok to bring a gun to a knife fight.

@nyev 

It states AES input at 24/96 on the website. I moved on some time ago and my current dac (Totaldac) is NOS 24/192 on that input, which aligns perfectly with the max of the Grimm. I was all in on DSD, never on MQA. A respected mastering engineer told me off the record (LOL) that he would never record in DSD unless it was "live". He explained its very cumbersome to edit in DSD. True or not, who knows. Convert final mix analog masters to DSD, he's all in...but if recording  digitally 24/192 is quite good.

@nyev 

Greetings. I wouldn’t listen too critically to the Merason until you get proper interconnects. Output from the balanced Merason outputs doubles up to 3v. The 1.5v output from the rca outputs combined with your “classic” Audioquest interconnects is a “thing”.

Again, be patient, take good notes. The Merason Dac1 is very good and after its been left on 24/7 it will improve…but it isn’t end game…this is really more of an experiment for you of what a solid performing, stand alone dac can bring to the table vs your inboard Gryphon dac. From its balanced outputs the sound will change considerably. Good luck.

@nyev 

A couple of observations and a little cajoling to follow.

First of all, the Merason DAC1 can be end game for some but based on this thread, it was likely to never be more than an external dac proof of concept in your system. You needed and deserved a reference point to see where your internal dac board measured in comparison. You have discovered that it will stack up nicely and that its merely different. In fact, there is a growing body of evidence among many users that zoning in on bit rates rather than the sound as a whole to be an unfortunate use of one’s time. Does it sound great or not? 

When you get your MU1 and the fancy cables, set the MU1 for 2fs and forget about it for a while. Do NOT do any upsampling via Roon…that would be the wrong direction since the MU1 will be your Roon core the anticipated benefits of doing so in my opinion would not outweigh the negeative impact caused by taxing the cpu. I can switch between 2fs and 4fs on the fly and I find the differences to be so minimal that its probably confirmation bias on my part. YMMV.

There are numerous exceptional dacs on the market in the $10-20k range. The MU1 will help you determine if the Gryphon dac board can be satisfying to your ears and be a stopping point for you, however, if you find the Merason more satisfying than the Gryphon dac board then all you’ve learned is a pretty decent external dac is better than a pretty decent dac board. Then you would likely begin trying different external dacs. Ive had too many dacs to re-count for this thread…most of which presented my music wonderfully: Lampizator, Nagra, Playback Designs, Chord Dave, Meitner, etc, etc. I’ve settled in with Totaldac, others have settled in with other brands and found happiness. Thats what its all about. Settle in and listen for a while when the MU1 and your cables arrive. Set the MU1 for 2fs and forget about it. Do you like what you hear? Do you like it a week later?

At the end end of this next phase of this exercise you will discover a few salient data points. 

1) Does the MU1 maximize the performance of your Gryphon dac board and is it enough to be a stopping point for you?

2) Does the Merason improve upon the Gryphon dac board to the point that it leads you to believe the apex performance of the dac board is more similar to the entry point of better dacs?

3) Is the cost differential and added complexity worth it to you?

4) Keep it simple, you won’t learn nearly as much about a future spouse by speed dating as you will if you take the time to get to know them well. The same applies here.

@malibu457

but for those still able to hear….there are levels of magnitude more performance available. If you are saying I shouldnt spend more money on an Aurender, Taiko or Grimm because you can’t hear the difference….I guess I would have to disagree with your premise. The Node is a fine streamer and if it meets your qualitative threshold, thats awesome.

@malibu457

what do you get specifically for the extra $9500? and can a streamed file compete with say a hi-res download from Presto music?

Hi Malibu. Let me begin by saying I am not familiar with presto music. My own, likely flawed, methodology has to do with evaluating four or five tracks from different artists. I choose the tracks based on subjective listening first to their redcook cd versions ripped to the internal drive of my server. The tracks were chosen because I found the redbook versions to be well recorded. I have then also acquired those same tracks in the same resolution from a few of the usual online services. I then compared the tracks by listening. I found no discernable differences in listening. This was over a period of several different servers (Macbook Pro, Mac Mini, Innuos Zenith and now a Grimm MU1). As I moved through the servers over the years, the streamed versions always trailed qualitatively. The Innuos narrowed the gap considerably, which was the epiphany for me. Better streamers (and better ethernet chain) made a difference. With the Grimm those same tracks become virtually identical on playback. With the Grimm’s 4fs upsampling engaged, the upsampled track streamed from Qobuz is so close that I can’t tell them apart from the non upsampled redbook local file. The upsampled local file does pull ever so slightly ahead but again, the sound quality differences are minute.

What does all this mean? To me I believe I have, in my system, minimized the degradation that must be occurring with the internet sourced streamed file. This is in my system to my ears in my room. I hear the differences and I hear the differences become indistinguishable. How can we be certain the streamed version is the exact, identical file? We can’t but with careful listening we make an educated assumption. There is some music that hasnt been remastered, just replicated online…ripped by the service. How can we be sure that online hirez streamed files are really higher resolution? We can’t. We just have to trust our ears and some software analysis. Some of us here have experimented with software analysis and compared the streamed files with local files.

So, what does all this mean and why should you trust me? You shouldn’t trust me….you should trust you. You should do as you are doing and trust your own ears. Your impressions of the spatial cues, tone, texture, dynamics, frequency extremes, etc will either tell you that you are on to something or there is no difference. Your results are applicable to you and that’s the cool thing about the hobby. If you find no difference then for you, there is no difference and no need to chase anything “more”. But if you do hear a meaningful difference between a streamed track and the same track stored locally, then (provided you are curious) you owe it to yourself to understand why. Everyone on Audiogon recognizes this is the point of departure from a sane and casual system approach and the far more costly approach of optimizing the chain. We all set our own $$ parameters and the energy required to get there. Its either worth it to you to go there or it isnt…there is no right or wrong decision but there is also no universal template to objectively apply to others. Our values and resources are different.

With absolutely no offense intended, if your local files sound identical to those streamed over a Node2i then several things are at play. There is a bottleneck limiting sound quality. Either your system’s ability to resolve musical material is “maxed out” at your present level or your local server is compromised to an extent that the best sound you can get stops at a certain level. I bought a Node not long ago thinking it would be fine for a minimalist setup in a teritiary room in my home. I let it burn in and it frankly sounded muffled and flat…in a word, it sounded broken. I then moved it into my main system and it sounded seriously compromised. So, if you are happy, then you have achieved an appropriate system balance for you and your goals. That’s great and you will get nothing from me but sincere congratulations because enjoying our music is what its all about. Please believe me, I wish I could have stopped long ago on this journey but once you’ve made a system modification that narrows the sound quality gap between streamed internet files from streamed local files then there is no denying musical material is being compromised. The mere act of improving the streamed internet file vs the local file is a clear indication to me that the data is there for the taking if you are willing to go after it.

Think of your streamer as a disc transport. You would agree wouldnt you that there are differences in sound quality between transports right? Do yourself a favor though, if you are convinced you have an optimized setup then DO NOT go listen to a truly optimized setup…it will be a costly mistake. You say your hearing is diminished but I hear the differences at every frequency I am able to hear and I really sense the differences with soundstage and spatial cues. I get it that you can’t imagine HOW there could be a difference worth “$9,500 extra” but there are differences. The fallacy of these arguments is humorous because some assume anyone who spends more than they did are being duped out of their money. LOL. Smart enough to make it but not smart enough to hold onto it? LOL. I contend that to those who deny additional value exists above a certain level or pricepoint just aren’t thinking clearly. But I get it, sometimes not knowing what you are missing is the path to maximum musical enjoyment.

@lalitk 

I hold out hope that if we are patient with one another and just share what has worked for us, the curious will see for themselves….or not. Either way, posts like I just shared with @malibu457 might be applicable to him/her/they or it might be applicable to someone who might visit this thread next week or next month or next year. LOL…or not.

I recognize that not everyone is after what I’m after…but I hope that my posts in reply to malibu’s posts were a kind nudge to communicate what I and many others are trying to accomplish isn’t remotely close to what he’s trying to accomplish. Happiness can be found on both roads by different people…we’ve been down his road, he hasn’t been down ours.

@malibu457 I’m envious that you have access to wonderful live music and I’m further impressed by the effort you must make to do so. Kudos to you!

Seriously, if you are happy and content with your sound then you are doing it right. If you are curious though, the Aurender streamer/servers are terrific. There is no substitute for hearing it in your system. I believe your gear, depending on your speakers, should show you the next level of performance that an Aurender could deliver. Do make note, and I apologize for redundant info if that is the case, but if you utilize Roon then the Aurender will not run with Roon. The Aurender has a proprietary interface and software, which they believe sounds better.

Best wishes and even though our hearing evolves, sometimes in unwelcome ways, there is so much enjoyment with music played back through great gear that there are more discoveries in your future. For the record, I found that my hearing began to suffer greatly on my wedding day and has degraded precipitously since that time. Best wishes.

@nyev mine did not come with one when I bought last year. Do you have a rca/spdif cable? 

Yes, it replaced my Innuos Zenith Mk3, which I was quite happy with.

@thyname

 

I just looked up the Grimm MU1. Retail price $12,500 without any internal SSD included. Wow! Pricey. A couple of observations:

1) Processor: Intel i3 2-Core. Definitely sufficient for Roon with no DSP, and with not a huge Roon library. But certainly not very powerful for those who use DSP (not me) and with big libraries

At a certain point if someone has a massive library they are probably better served (pun intended) with a powerful server, perhaps in another room. This applies to most one box server/streamers. Then the MU1 could be the endpoint which is where its strengths lie in clocking, 4fs and the optimized aes output.

2) Memory: 4MB RAM. Again, not impressive.

Its upgradeable if it isnt enough.

3) No USB audio (to DAC) output. Hmmmm….

Hmmmm, the Grimm uses the optimized aes and doesnt even attempt to address usb. When you hear the difference, you will understand why.

4) I don’t see any proprietary streaming software/ music management program (like Innuos Sense). Roon OK, I get that, but then you are at the mercy of Roon for everything.

It uses the best of Roon’s capabilities and dispenses with much of what Roon doesn’t do well like dsp, upsampling, etc. thats a noisy process the way Roon does it regardless of the server/streamer.

I am definitely curious about Grimm, given the reports & reviews, but these observations give me pause. A friend of mine ordered one a few days ago, so I should be able to learn more from “real life” experiences in a few weeks.

I set out to buy an Innuos Statement, the dealer I used sells both, and then a funny thing happened on the way to the Forum….(yep, pun intended). Peace all.

Well, since you are already married you will have to let that slide LOL. Breakin for the Grimm is only a few day and Shunyata’s newwer cables are minimal as well. Looking forward to you achieving your goals.

@nyev 

When does the Grimm and your Shunyata interconnects arrive?

The Rubicon is VERY, VERY good…in some systems, the Muon setups might be redundant .

@peter_s I found that a high quality aes/ebu cable was a worthwhile investment but it isn’t night and day “a veil was removed and my wife walked in and asked what changed” kind of improvement. It matters but its the last thing to address rather than the first.

How are you guys comparing ethernet cables for the Mu1? 

@fastfreight but how are you comparing the stock cable to the M101? 

Thanks @fastfreight 

@nyev stick to your plan, overlay your goals and don’t deviate. Alot of well-meaning forum members are certain their giant killer server/streamer/dac/upsampler/reclocker is the answer to your prayers.

Only you can determine what will work best for you.

@calgarian5355 

My experience is consistent with yours. My aes cable is a 1.5m Shunyata Sigma v2. I have a Final Touch Audio power cable.