Dear friends: I think that the Monaco " takes " by surprise to Mr. Fremer and he " resist " to think that what he was heard is right.
For many years Mr. Fremer, like many of us, were accustom to the belt drive distrortions/colorations, our brain is already equalized to the belt drive " signature " sound and because we are accustom to it we think is the right and only way to heard the analog magic in a TT.
Suddenly Mr. fremer heard something that is really accurate with lower in distortions/colorations ( against a belt drive system, including what he owns. )and these facts are " news " for him/us and does not like him and that's all.
Now, the opinion of Mr. fremer is only one very experience opinion but does not means that the Monaco is not a great top quality performer.
Maybe, IMHO, the question for Mr. Fremer is not what he likes or what he does not likes about the Monaco performance but which one is truer to the recording, the Monaco or his Caliburn?, because one thing is what Mr. Fremer or any of us likes to hear/heard and other very different what is on the recording.
Accuracy is a must on audio and specially on a TT and specially for real music lovers, which one leave us nearer the recording the one with almost perfect accuracy or the one not almost perfect accuracy?. Very hard to say because how Mr. fremer or any one of us could know what is really on the recording, very complex.
Now, like I say Mr. fremer is one opinion, here is another expert opinion: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue25/monaco.htm
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Grooves: +++++ " If one wishes for "accuracy," you're better off with a CD player, which "measures" far better than any turntable. " +++++
I don't mean it in that way, I speak of accuracy because reading your review and the white papers of the Monaco design the word accuracy takes a very wide meaning and along with that the Monaco people are experts on damping/vibrations/dissipations devices. His design was very well thinking, unfortunately I never had the opportunity hear it for to have a more precise idea of what you report on your review and what other report on different reviews on the Monaco.
Obviously the Caliburn is a top performer ( well at that price anithing must be. ) and between other advantages it has a vacuum hold down record that is a real advantage over any other TT design with out it.
Any way the Monaco is an audio item that any of us have to hear and it looks like a top TT alternative for any analog music lover.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Metralla: In any audio system: distortions/colorations/noises self audio links always hide errors in the quality sound reproduction in one or more links in the audio chain.
When you switch to an audio item that it is lower in distortion/coloration/noise some of those errors has no place to hide and we have to re-start our whole system set-up looking for those errors dissapear.
IMHO it is a mistake to say or think that the " new boy on the street " is the culprit of everything because it is not or at least not for the whole " bad quality sound ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: IMHO and for my audio experience every time that we change an audio item/link in the audio system chain and specially when that link/audio-item is a " statement " level product ( maybe the Monaco is that kind of audio product. ) we have to " re-think " our whole set-up audio system.
Normally our system set-up is tweaked/" equalized " for what we have/like suddenly a totally new audio item goes inside that audio system we can't think that we only have to switch that new audio product and everything will be fine because it is not: we have to make some modifications " here and there " for that audio system settle down in good shape again ( example, when we change a tube audio item for a SS audio item. ). When we " introduce " a lower distortion, more accurate, less noise, lower colorations audio item in the audio chain system we must to start a new system set-up: different cables, speaker position, new volume ( SPL ) level to hear it, etc, etc.
I don't know if Mr. fremer makes changes in the VTA/VTF and cartridge load impedance ( at least ) against what he normaly use with those cartridges in his Caliburn or with other belt drive TTs. These parameters changes are critical for the Monaco review, we have to tie/tweak both system ( Monaco and belt drive one ) for we can make a fair review, well at least this is my humble opinion.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: This is something that I miss in my last post:
" Sometimes when we make those kind of changes in our audio system the " cooper " appears and else-where there is a link that now we dicovery it is not up to the task!!!!!. "
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Lewm: IMHO I think that if everyone of us are testing an audio item ( that we know is a good product ) and we find that it is not performing in the way we are expecting, what normally do any of us?: try to find the whys of that poor performance and try to correct it making changes " here and there " till we achieve the performance target that we know the product can show.
In the Monaco case the minimal changes that we have/must to try ( because of the short comings that MF reviewed )are: load impedance, VTA/SRA, VTF and even a different tonearm and/or phonocable interconnect.
The short comings that MF speaks in his review have to " see " with those parameters changes and maybe " playing " with those changes everything will be right on target.
I don't care about the Monaco but I think for what I read on the MF review and for what he say in this thread that the conclusion of that review was a little on the unfair side for the Monaco and maybe needs a re-review ( or at least a second Stereophile review with a different reviewer in a different audio system ) making some of those changes and other ones.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Grooves: I know I'm no-one to tell you this ( I'm not the the Stereophile editor in chief!!! ) but IMHO it is almost mandatory a Monaco Stereophile follow-up review where the Monaco " feels " at " home ".
For what I read in your review and for what you already posted I assume that you don't make/do almost nothing for the Monaco wil be/stay " happy " in a more friendly analog audio environment ( I think that every product that you or any reviewer review deserve that and specially with one product/Monaco that show a new " old " technology that is very interesting for the analog Stereophile readers and for the whole audio community. ). Maybe you did but you don't say nothing about.
What do you think?, I ask you and insist about because you are " someone " at the reviewers community and " someone " at the very top level: YOUR OPINION IS CRITICAL AND DELICATE ON THE SUBJECT !!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Koegz: Let put things in " other " way ( because we are talking about the same subject ): when you change a component in any audio system you have to deal with a different kind of distortions/colorations/noises that could like you or not, if not IMHO I think that the people that cares about quality sound reproduction should be try to find what is happen and try to " fine tune " elsewhere to be nearer his expectations.
Now, at the level of product that we are talking almost no product will sound bad, maybe different but not bad and like I told you we always could make a fine tunning, don't you think?
Come on, when you change for a different cartridge: what do you do?: I think that you try to fine tunning till you are satisfied: right?
Now, if you don't do it then we are talking in different audio language and we are losting our time.
This is not who or whom has the reason but where we can meet/coincide.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Lewm: I'm not saying that MF does not heard what he say, certainly he did.
What I'm saying ( please read again carefully what I posted )is that if any one is comparing/testing two different TT's surrounded for the same around analog rig: tonearm/cartridge/cables/phonolinepreamp, etc etc, we must try to make an individual set-up to achieve the best performance on both TT's: VTA/SRA/VTF/load impedance, due to their different " colorations/distortions " ( like you say: " I suggest that one is always trading one set of distortions for another " ). Maybe one specific load impedance value makes synergy with the " colorations/distortions " of one unit but the same load impedance value could not make the same synergy with the other TT and this could happen too for the other parameters: VTA/VTF/etc,, that's why is mandatory to make a precise individual TT set-up taking in count any single parameter that can/could affect the quality sound individual TT performance.
We have to compare apples with apples, this means: the best performance of both TT's and from here decide about.
For what I read elsewhere the Monaco set-up was far away from ideal and is unfair to judge it or make any valuation on that un-friendly environment.
Like I told you I don't care about the Monaco but if I was its designer I would like that any review/test/comparison take place in the same performance level ( set up ) conditions. Yes, IMHO MF had to tweaked the whole Monaco set-up and ( for what I read and for what he already say ) he did not: I wonder why????????, totally unfair: the Monaco and more important the Stereophile readers don't deserve that in any professional product review, well at least this is what I think about.
Take a look for the MF's " force " ( brutal force ) he has: in this thread Downunder ( and I can assure that other people too. ) already post +++" I was thinking about the Monaco, but its inherent sonic signature is enough for me not to pursue a lot of time in trying to have a listen to it. I prefer a more euphonic on top ... " ++++, because MF opinion, WOW!!!!!
Lewm, MF has a great great responsability in its hands ( like no one in the analog domain. ) and that's why I think he has to be more carefully about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Downunder: +++++ " YOu don't need to agree with the final outcome of what MF says " ++++
That was not the point and my subject, you really miss it:
+++++ " . Yes, IMHO MF had to tweaked the whole Monaco set-up and ( for what I read and for what he already say ) he did not: I wonder why????????, totally unfair " +++++ and
+++++ " What I'm saying ( please read again carefully what I posted )is that if any one is comparing/testing two different TT's surrounded for the same around analog rig: tonearm/cartridge/cables/phonolinepreamp, etc etc, we must try to make an individual set-up to achieve the best performance on both TT's: VTA/SRA/VTF/load impedance ( compare apples against apples and not apples against oranges. )" ++++
I'm not against MF, I read him every single month and in one way or other I enjoy it and no I don't agree always with his statements. I respect him like a person and I respect his unvaluable analog audio experiences where in some way or other almost all of us were/are learning something always.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Koegz: I think we are talking on the same subject/approach with very little differences.
I almost agree with you that in theory the designer should be the right person to know about but we have here the Guru of the analog gurus ( and this statement does not means that he has no errors: he is human like any one else. ) that IMHO and with all respect to everyone in many ways knows/experience a little more on some ways that the designers it self.
+++++ " I subsribe to the idea that every part(tt, cables, amp, pre-amp, phono etc.) should add to the whole and be able to stand on it's own " +++++
the critical word here is " add " because many times that component add good " things " and other times add bad/wrong " things or ( like you say ) brings out the bad on other components.
In anyway we have to make a FINE TUNE set-up to find the wrong component(s ), to find why the new component it is not performing like we are expecting and fine tune it ( tweaked ) to find if with this fine tune that component is up to the task. I think that when you add your Talon subwoofer in your audio system you make some fine tune about, right?
+++++ " all components MUST be able to play together. " +++++
I totally agree with you, only add with/in synergy.
Achieve this target is very complex because there are many different parameters in an audio system ( including room ): if we change the VTA or the cartridge load impedance ( examples ) almost everything change for the good or bad and that's why I think that every single link in the audio chain must be fine tuned to obtain what anyone of us are looking for in our individual audio systems that in my case is to be nearer to the recording and live event.
Well, what I'm saying is that in this time MF does not fine tune his audio system for the Monaco and I ask him again: WHY????? Because he is comparing it to his Caliburn that is totally fine tuned in his audio system!!!!!!!! , got my subject?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Lewm: +++++ " you are missing the point. The point is that in order to do such a comparison, one must observe the scientific method - change only one variable at a time. " +++++
IMHO I don't think I miss the point because in my experience when you change a TT or a cartridge or a tonearm, in theory, you are changing only one variable but it is not so simple, it is very complex: when you change any of those analog audio items you are changing several variables because each analog link is not self independent: it depends of the other analog links and its self variables change ( could change ) when the other variables change.
I'm sorry my english limitations make very difficult to me try to explain you how complex is the whole analog process.
At the end we not have to agree about you have your point of view ( that I respect ) and I have mine.
Think how many variables change when MF switch from the Caliburn to the Monaco and if you still think that only change one variable then you and me does not nothing to talk on this subject: different drive system, different mass platter, different platter material, different arm board, different plynth, different footers, different..., different..., etc, etc, so complex!!!!! and that's why we need to fine tunning.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear lewm: Don't be so " extreme ". All I'm saying is that when we change a componnent we have to made a " fine tunning ": that's all.
Come to Mexico and be my guest for the Coronas!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
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Dear Piedpiper: +++++ " VTA, loading, etc. should not change this once optimized in a truly reference system. " +++++
I agree but that never happen..
Regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
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Dear grooves: Of course that I know that you know how to make a TT/tonearm/cartridge set-up ( you have a DVD about. Btw, very good one. ).
The point is that you don't mentioned nothing about specially on load impedance and VTA. So, now I understand that you use the same load impedance with both set-ups, is ok for me don't problem: no one knows better your system that you.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
