Jeff,The wobbly aspect is supposed to be there.To me,that is one reason unipivots are SO GOOD.Think "car suspension" here,with the pivotal nature(WOBBLE) coping with micro bumps and depressions in the groove,some dirt as well.Although there may be some responses to the contrary,and I can't proove anything,the opposite effect of the unipivot would sort of act like a plow through the groove.They work fine,but the unipivot design is a "KILLER".So don't worry!
Sounds like the damping fluid was too low,originally,and may have contributed to the distortion you heard.As I, and others, have stated previously,the stuff can make or break the ultimate performance of the arm. Also,make sure your anti-skate is where it should be.Check Graham instructions.Also,even though it's a pain in the tush,read all previous posts.If you want to grow in this hobby,then you can never get too much information.You can,also call Bob Graham.I have,in the past,with questions.He is a nice guy.
Although having a captive audience is nice,truthfully, I'm played out on this topic, of the tweaking of the arm.There are some very nice people that have responded to this thread,and you can find valuable info with many of them.Many seem to be far more experienced and capable than me.I've been at this hobby for 35 years or so,but,am constantly learning things.Don't be coy about trying something for yourself.
Anyway the 2.2 is a great product and should last a lifetime.I don't see any other arms,other than the very pricey and ergonomically difficult air bearing designs outperforming it to a great degree.If I ever get rid of mine that is the only direction I'd move in!
Good Luck!!
|
Goodbye sirspeedy, your work here is done. Its been great knowin'ya. Seriously though, I'm working a document called Setting Up The Graham Tonearm. Copying the vital pieces from this and other discussion threads and pasting them in one cohesive word document. I'll refer to it frequently in the upcoming months. |
Sirspeedy,
I certainly wasn't trying to argue, but I wasn't offering an opinion either. Unlike many things in audio, thread pitch is easily measured. 0.7mm per turn is more resolving than 1.0mm per turn. Opinion really doesn't enter into it. (Now I'm arguing!)
I agree about the "slop" in the TriPlanar's VTA threads of course. To use that adjustment consistently one must bring the tower up to the desired position by at least 1/4 turn or so. Doing this allows the weight of the arm to take up the slop, which is easy to feel. Tighter threads would be better. Perhaps that's what you meant when you said the Graham's VTA adjustment was more resolving.
Many thanks again for posting your breakthrough results. Damping the Graham effectively is so critical that every owner owes you big time.
Jeff_ss,
Are you going to post your document? I'm actually working on something similar for the TriPlanar. There are a number of things a user needs to know that aren't in the TriPlanar manual, just as a good explanation of damping is not provided in the Graham manual.
Raul,
I can't imagine why you'd object, but I do in fact listen with closed eyes at live concerts. All the time. I'd better stop doing that or I'll never see you coming! |
Jeff ss, I would be interested in a copy of the article you are putting together for the Graham tonearm. Let me know how to get a copy of it.
Thanks,Brad |
Doug,I never took any of your,useful and educated comments as argumentative.I was very happy with my Triplaner,but,found the Graham a better match for my table.This had more to do with the fact that in order for the Wheaton to fit my arm's mounting area,and to fascilitate the "DOWNWARD" pitch of my arm,with respect to my Transfiguration Temper V's excessive vta "backslope" I needed a spacer between the cartridge and the headshell.You could imagine how pissed off I was at my dealer for not realizing this.Especially when I asked him to check this out.
That being said,who cares if I have to move the "FRIGGIN" Graham adjustment a little more than the Triplaner?It's still "dead accurate".It is supposed to be a more finer pitch than other arms,so what?They are all(other arms as well)capable of this level of adjustability.At least those I've seen.Gives new meaning to the term "Let your fingers do the walking"!!Who even thinks about stuff like "thread pitch" when you can still get the desired result?
By the way,I ALWAYS close my eyes(AT TIMES) whether listening "LIVE" or to my own set-up.I'll bet Raul has too!!!
Please take ANY comments that may seem confrontational as "SIMPLY" comments I'd make to a "Friend" during a listening session!!BOY,you would not believe some of the "REALLY HEATED"audio debates that constantly break out in my listening group,and not from me.I'm too busy ducking.I LOVE it,though!!! |
...in order for the Wheaton to fit my arm's mounting area,and to fascilitate the "DOWNWARD" pitch of my arm,with respect to my Transfiguration Temper V's excessive vta "backslope" I needed a spacer between the cartridge and the headshell.You could imagine how pissed off I was at my dealer for not realizing this.Especially when I asked him to check this out. Now that IS annoying. I forget where you're located, except I know it's not FL (yet). If it's near central CT let me know. If you or your friends are nearby I could certainly bring my UNIverse over for a listening session some day. We can both close our eyes and neither of us need get heated up about anything! |
Jeff_ss, me too. What Bfuehrer said. And thanks in advance! |
Well in that case I should probably spend more time on it. Right now it's just a cut and paste job of what I thought were the most useful posts to (so far) this discussion thread, including the user names of the posters. To make an actual instruction manual the ideas might need to be put in a little different order, and I'd probably take the user names out. Also scan other discussion threads for more information to include. I'd be happy to do it, but it will be some time before it's done since I have to put in 50 hour weeks at work for a while. Although I'm at work now, you can tell where my head is at. |
Jeff_ss, don't knock yourself out over this. I certainly wouldn't ask you to do some kind of tech writing. One can usually find this information with a search. Really there are just two threads here that I know of that have the valuable info on this subject and since SirSpeedy was involved in both they shouldn't be hard to recall. |
I expect a hefty commission if that manual comes to fruition!!I may need the dough to purchase a ZYX UNIV!Ya see Larry you "ARE" a pretty good salesman!!!
Doug,just when I was expecting some kind of defensive comeback(although not necessary)you go and make an "INCREDIBLY" nice offer!!Larry has also been very open about discussing,via the TELE the finer points of this potential winning design.However you have to hear something in real-time to determine it's merits.I would certainly make an effort to contact him if I decide to visit family in FLA.That would surely be an interesting listening session.
Hey Larry,hope you clear up that "room brightness" you alluded to.I' very picky!!
Back to your offer Doug.It's IMO too nice.You don't know me at all.I have,in the past,actually been ripped off(A Tandberg tapedeck).This happened 20 yrs ago,but I never forgot that feeling.I hope you never experience that.
That being said,and assuming you are sincere,I will ask my pal "YODA" if he is up to it.Right now he is without a cartridge,since his new TITAN has crapped out.This is the second one in a year.He is very frustrated,but has MANY connections,except he thinks this one may not go so well,since he already got a replacement for free.
I,due to Larry's enthusiasm,and credibility, have given my pal a HUGE pitch on the UNIV.Basically I told him not to turn his back on what may be the next great transducer recommended by the "BIG BOYS" of which my pal has associated with in the past.He is,though, an independent thinker,but he gets alot of feedback through his "IN" channels.Although that IMO means "CRAP" since we are all just "HOBBYISTS".
What he is looking for is a design that can compete with the likes of the XV1-S,TITAN(but doesn't break)MYABI,and the TRANSFIGURATION TEMPER V(low output)which I have and is "FRIGGIN" great.I guess as of now he's leaning slightly towards a COLIBRI.WHY? I have no idea!
This all goes out the window if he gets another TITAN,though we feel may present problems again,in his Air Tangent.
The only reason I got so wordy here,although as you know I do that alot(sorry),is because your offer is so damn nice, that I'm going to mention this to him.He is off to CANADA to visit with another audio pal (and record collector-extraordinaire),next week,but I bet he jumps at this.Larry did a good job.
By the way he lives in Brooklyn.If this comes off you won't be sorry,that I can promise.We'll see in a week or two.Thanks alot.
I get to meet another "GONE'R".Have a good tadoo over the Graham vs Wheaton.Hear the UNIV.You get to sample the system I call the best I've heard.Kill any reputation I may have,regarding my blathering about how good I think it is,if it's not(I'm not worried here).You get to sample "LEON's" bakery products(guaranteed better than the UNIV "experience").AND--we both hear some of the lp's in the "GUARANTEED BEST FRIGGIN RECORD COLLECTION IN THE USA.
I'll see what I can do!!
|
Exactly right, I won't sweat it.
I've been listening to my Graham 2.2 with Airy2-x-sb and it sounds very good. I'm so pleased it doesn't seem necessary to change anything, but of course I will experiment after maybe 25 hours on the cartridge. Down force is at 1.98 (was at 2.00 the first day, Sunday.) I've got VTA set so the cartridge is parallel to the first record played (dont remember how thick that one was), and the fluid level is at the starting point (slightly below halfway up the square part of the bearing shaft.) It sounds so good! Im strictly a jazz person, and cymbals have greater detail, soundstaging is improved width wise on some recordings Ive listened to. Bass is quite good and I think it will get better. Ive only listened to 6 or 8 records. |
I would like to ask all those, who found this thread interesting, to "POST" comments regarding your feelings as to why the mainstream audio press had dropped the ball covering this topic.Afterall,this is a very popular arm,and has been covered extensively!!It has,also been around a long time.It took me almost 3 years to finally "give in" and really commit to fotzing around.Something that took way to much time to figure out,and I'm a dummy!
Maybe someone in the right place could catch wind of this and "WAKE UP" to the fact that there is more to QUALITY music reproduction than an endless parade of "Recommended Components" or covering the latest 5.1 "CHACHKA"!! |
.
Sirspeedy,
.
I think that the value of finding the correct damping fluid for a specific set up is just not well known and appreciated by either the mainstream audio press or even the distributor of the Graham products.
.
I went to hear the new Graham Phantom being presented last fall and I asked the distributor rep that was there at the dealer for the demo if he had "tuned" the amount of damping fluid for the set up and I was quite surprised that he "just put a normal amount in there". I did not get the impression that he was being apathetic or lazy, I felt he just did not have an appreciation of the impact that having the ideal amount of fluid could mean to the quality of the sound reproduction. This all happened after I read your original thread but before I had worked with Doug Deacon and Paul to find the best level for my system (or I would have had a much more detailed conversation with him).
.
I think Bob Graham probably understands that there is value in being precise with the amount of damping fluid, but I wonder if he understands it to the level that you have come to understand.
.
Rgds,
Larry
. |
Sirspeedy - The mainstream audio press may have dropped the ball regarding Graham fluid damping, and its affect on bringing out the best in that arm, for a variety of reasons.
Trusting that the designer knows his product well, it has not been made very clear in the instruction manual how to adjust the fluid damping for its optimum. Most owners and reviewers put in an 'average' recommended amount and let it go at that. Although this arm has been "covered extensively", as you say, I am not sure if anyone other than yourself has devoted as much research into the critical effects of damping fluid amount. Certainly no reviewer has. The arm has been seemingly judged on its "follow-the-manual-setup-recommendation" merits. This arm in particular, or perhaps unipivots in general, may be very sensitive to damping fluid adjustments, more so than arms like the SME V. Now that you have 'unearthed' the method of tweaking the Graham damping fluid, it still will remain for most a daunting process of trial and error which many may not want to bother to fiddle with, especially given that a change in cartridge choice may require a change in damping fluid amount,.....again.
Hopefully some mainstream reviewers, and maybe even the creator, Bob Graham, will bother to take the time you have and investigate this topic and publish their results.
Thank you for your invaluable contributions. |
Sirspeedy,
I've been mugged once and burglarized once, but I doubt either scenario is likely while I'm carrying the holy cartridge into Yoda's cave! If I feel like spending a day in NYC it would be easy enough to swing by, mount it up and have a listen. Of course he or you are also welcome to visit, though hearing a cartridge in a strange sytem is not quite so useful of course.
I know one UNIverse owner who's also owned a Myabi and an XV-1S. He says the UNIverse is decidedly superior to both, particularly as regards neutrality. His only concern after a month of ownership is bass weight, but he admits he'll accept slightly tubby bass to feel greater impact. We won't. We prefer the textures and dynamics of individual instruments to any dynamics laid over the music by a component. The UNIverse's dynamics are strictly those of the music, never of the cartridge. IME it is transcendant in this respect. I've heard more full-bodied cartridges, the Denon 103 for example, but that fuller body is invariably the sound of the cartrige itself. I don't want to listen to a cartridge. I want to listen to musicians.
For a slightly darker, near Arthur Salvatore-an view on your last question: the mainstream press relies on its advertisers for survival. They may publish honest reviews, but perhaps honesty does not require 100% disclosure. It merely requires not falsifying anything one does choose to discuss.
They discuss the Graham's superb ergononics, world-leading ease and accuracy of setup, superb adjustability and excellent build quality. Damping? Mucking around for two weeks with messy blue goop? That's not exactly a selling point, so maybe we won't spend too much time on that.
Or, as Larry found with the Graham rep, they simply don't know and it didn't occur to them to find out. I had a similar experience with my last car purchase, I all but demonstrated the car for the salesman. Enthusiast forums like this one give everyone access to the collective insights of people with great passion for a product. People like you, who often have far more knowledge to share. Thanks to the internet we no longer need magazines to tell us what to buy or hear. |
Thanks for the comments,so far.As for me,I'm "FAR" from a genious,and think that for the 3200 clams that this arm commands,and for the fact that this arm has been featured in the "Analog Corner" column for over 4 years(by a reviewer that passes himself off as an expert of experts)we "the consumer" deserve alot more.I "DO NOT BELIEVE"that I am the discoverer of some secret here.There are "PLENTY" of hard core critical listeners out there.I've met a ton.I'm sure that there are those that have figured this all out.Don't give the press such a free pass here(not that we can really do anything about it,though).
I guess many of you just don't remember the days when magazine like "TAS" REALLY were "TAS LIKE".This would have been covered there.There is NO excuse to accept the fact that there is a point of "Mere Acceptability" with regards to getting the best possible sound from something costing so much!There is a HUGE difference in performance from this arm,between just OK and SPOT ON.
This takes me back to my original comments that unless "WE" as hobbyists start to hear some other "HOBBYIST OWNED" set-ups that are truly fine tuned and "RIGHT"(NO bright or overdamped rooms,or rationalizing of weaknesses,which we ALL do)we will "NEVER" know if our own set-ups are "IN the Zone",for lack of any useful comparison(not "live" music,since it cannot be reproduced effectively)."Eyes OPENED OR CLOSED"!!!
If I had not been privy to my (FANATICAL) friend's system,I would,to this day,be as happy as a lark with my arm setup,thinking the slight grainyness(compared to the Air Tangent)was line noise,or Transistor noise,or tube noise,or my cartridge etc.You get my point.
To anyone less critical,I'm just a critical bloviator.To all else,we have a TON of money invested in our stuff,and deserve a little attention to detail!!YES,Salvatore is "MY HERO"!!The poor guy!!!So alone,is he!!!
|
Sirspeedy,
I think the blame for ignorance about the critical nature of the damping fluid is clearly on Bob Graham himself. He designed the thing and should know; He wrote the instruction sheet that has been used by everyone setting up the arm including reviewers. Even though I don’t care for the self anointed analogue guru over at StereoPhool, I can’t blame him for not figuring this out because I didn’t either until I read it here.
The audio rags have changed drastically since the early days. They are no longer the hobbyist experimenting and reporting what they find. That function is being done by all of us and the net these days. The rags are now run by business people as a business and that is a completely different kind of animal. I personally know one reviewer and you couldn’t give me his job. Stuff coming and going before you hardly get a chance to know it. It takes me a long time personally to get a system to really sing and even then I continue to learn how extract more out of what I have. Nope, that’s not for me. I would much rather chase records than equipment.
I do agree the it is good to hear others systems. It’s too bad that we all live so far apart! The biggest problem in most of the systems I’ve heard is the room. There always seems to be some compromise in terms of speaker placement to keep peace with the Ms. I not immune from room problems as I have too much speaker for my room. Finely tuned systems are hard to come by in these parts.
Regards,
Scott |
I want to personally invite all of "YOU GUYS" to my daughter's wedding.In a couple of years.I promise I won't forget.Just as HP of TAS promised,3 yrs ago,that he would "NOT" let the magazine slide!!What a laugh.I can't help but think of him coming down his stairs,at the behest of his latest set-up man(paid schleper),with pipe in hand,only to listen to the component,or musical selection at hand and,quickly,giving the Roger Ebert thumbs up or down.Then retiring back to his video rig.That's it!!
I was smuggled into Sea cliff,by a former friend(old critic)some years back.Time of fire.Sonically,once I got over being on HOLY ground,similar to the sound I had heard that month,while viewing the HAGLER/Sugar Ray Leonard fight at an area disco.I swear!!Like I said,we're "all" just hobbyists!!HP was away at time.The former critic obviously was NOT a good friend of HP,or mine,but wanted a business favor from me.Heck,I wasn't about to turn down that invite!!
Doug,I'm really sorry to say that at the time being my friend has decided not to take you up on that offer.SHUCKS!!It has more to do with his present state of trying to secure a replacement TITAN.Also,I think he feels he would not be able to swing the 5 LARGE,should he like it.
Probably a good defense mechanism,though.He did ask me to "truly" thank you for the offer.He also said he may take you up on it someday,should his current situation deteriorate,regarding a n/c replacement.Since you were so open about bringing this over, to a total stranger's house,I think,even if he doesn't try a UNIV. you may be welcome to come over for a listening session.We can then "MUG" you in BKLYN!!PS---You will still get the "LEON's pastry!! |
Sonically,once I got over being on HOLY ground,similar to the sound I had heard that month,while viewing the HAGLER/Sugar Ray Leonard fight at an area disco. ROTFLMAO. That's quite a sound stage. So HP's system had plenty of punch? I think he feels he would not be able to swing the 5 LARGE,should he like it. In that case, he probably shouldn't listen to it. I have a friend who made that mistake. He's skipping lunches to get one. That's a lot of lunches. |
What does ROTFLMAO stand for?
As for the HOLY ground,that was then.I'm sure today would be a different story.The only "POSITIVE" thing that came out of it,for me,was the fact that I started to believe that I could come up with good sound,on my own,and that all the "HOITY TOITY" dudes just got there first!!
Any "HOITY TOITY's" following any of this?
Are any of you "HOITY TOITY" enough to remember your commitment to your readers?We actually DO spend money on subscription renewals.Although I'm considering letting mine run out,and reading the latest DRECK for free,at Barnes & Noble,as I have a latte!!I'd rather re-subscribe,but you don't deserve my loyalty.Who am I kidding I'm so conditioned already!
Too bad a guy like,Larry's pal,Arthur Salvatore doesn't publish a newsletter that I can sit and read in my car,during lunch breaks!!I love the guy.What BALLS!!To be hated and loved at the same time.Sounds like my system.Too bad Arthur was actually wrong about the later Dutch pressing of Prince of the Pagoda's being superior to the earlier English one.I have both!!Not close! The 2 Dutch pressings I own don't touch the 1st pressing British.I think Arthur really has to upgrade to that UNIV. REAL soon!!!Hey,at least he's human.
Anyone not following my blather,please refer to HIGHEND AUDIO.com.Hope you all get as much out of that site as I did.As a matter of fact,I printed copies out for all my friends!!All 3 of them. |
.
Sirspeedy,
.
ROTFLMAO = Rolling on the floor laughing my ass off
.
It was not me that wrote the letter to Arthur Salvatore. I have never had the pleasure of meeting or talking with Arthur, but I hope that happens one day.
.
Rgds,
Larry
. |
Well,I've benefited from this original post,in that I've been shamed into learning how to use this damn keyboard,thanks METRALLA.
I've also learned cool stuff like the meaning of ROTFLMAO!!
My discussions of the damping fluid tweaks were well worth it,and "PALE" in comparison!!
Larry,the only reason I equated you with Salvatore,was because your comments on the UNIV. were literally,word for word,identical with a letter sent to him, describing the cartridges attributes!!HMMM!!! |
HMMM, indeed! Very suspicious! There could be an infringement suit here. Did you record that call? Might be worth some bucks.
In Larry's defense, the UNIverse is very difficult to describe. If you check reviews of other ZYX models you'll see similar remarks. I said something like that in my Airy 2/3 review and so did Art Dudley in his. Invisibility is the ZYX house characteristic, but it's pretty tough to wrap words around it.
The further up the ZYX line you go the more invisible they get, naturally. By the time you reach the UNIverse all words seem futile. The only other component I've heard that disappears so readily and thoroughly is the equally indescribable Schroeder Reference. How do you describe the sound of nothing? |
I was just KIDDING around!!No need to go RAUL on me,Doug!!Also,you just blew the free LEON's pastries,so take that!!! |
.
Doug - answer: one hand clapping
.
Rgs,
Larry
. |
And I'm most impressed, sirspeedy.
Regards, |
