Good carts with SME V

Two ways to check your cart-arm resonance frequency:
1 Add weight of cartridge plus 1 g for screws plus tonearm effective mass, into the vinyl engine resonance frequency calculator.

2 Test with Hifi News or similar test record - side B track 2 on the HFN record. You will hear AND see the cartridge wobble at the resonance frequency.

How so?

tkr, nkonor, invictus005

Thank you. Yes, a Koetsu is certainly an idea. I have never tried one.

After I got the Aesthetix Io back from repair a year ago, with new JJ tubes selected by Aesthetix, the noise level was much lower. I also like the Steelhead, a friend has one, dead quiet like you say. But I love the Io’s rich sound and am willing to live with some tube noise.

Not so much cash, no...back in the old days Lyras were not so extremely expensive. I started used, and traded in. With the current price level, however, I am not sure I can follow up. My friend has an Etna, which sounds very good, and says he likes it better than a wood-body Koetsu. I wonder if a Koetsu might be too smooth-sounding in my already quite tubey system.

Luckily my Titan i is still playing. The diamond on my Atlas said farewell the other day (a very sad day). There was an offer for AT ART-9 but it was gone before I called them, and anyway, I am not sure if it would be anything more than an "extra", for me. I have compared with the Ortofon Cadenza Black in my system. A very good, neutral cart, but a bit polite, output a bit low. The Lyras - the Titan, and even more, the Atlas - were better, in my system. Bigger, bolder, better able to tackle dynamic music. But if I had not heard the best Lyras I might be happy with a Cadenza. Maybe the whole idea of having "the best" cartridge has become - unhealthy.

thanks!

.

wspohn – which Koetsu worked best in the SME V?

atmasphere – yes, lower compliance and/or cartridge weight. Maybe I will consider change of the tonearm.

jperry – will take a look.

nkonor – yes I am trying to get in contact with them. They have been good before and things may take a little time.

tkr - Koetsu Black has an aluminum body – like the thick platter on my Hanss T30 – what is the output? - I find it hard to get a picture of how Koetsus sound, from quite varied reviews - some are not so “smooth” anymore, etc. But the mid-tone is the traditional strongest part of their house sound, right?

jahatl513 – ok will check. heard nice things about them. what would be relevant models?

other user reports very welcome.

Another important consideration is the cartridge – phono preamp match. Cart output cannot be too low in my case, using the Aesthetix Io. Carts with 0.5 or more work fine, 0.3 is not as good, and 0.2 is somewhat problematic due to tube noise. It does not take MM carts. Step-up transformers probably need not apply.

tkr - so the black could be the best Koetsu alternative in my context? Output 0.6 is fine. Which Urushi did you have? Just by looking I liked the sky blue. Not sure, which of the new more wider frequency (stone body?) Koetsus would be best match.
Oystein

Thanks all. Yes, I am willing to listen - Koetsu, Kiseki, others.

Meanwhile here is a little home update, my Lyra Titan i.

Experimenting more with the Lyra Titan i, back in my SME V arm now that the Atlas is broken, I play Yes: Relayer, a kind of torture track test, known as very busy, dynamic record, not easy to get right.

I notice that adjustments (weight, antiskating, tonearm height) make a big difference. When they get better, what may at first sound like hardness and sibilants become less obtrusive. I had the arm quite high, turning it down ca parallel made for better mid-tone. Weight a bit up. Antiskating almost halfway down.

The Titan i does make this record sound “sharp”. But was it meant to sound that way? I think, yes. There should be some razor blade to the sound. Now that it is better adjusted, the bass performance is very tight and sounds great. The guitar of Steve Howe sounds more full, warm.

Tønnes – thank you. Probably, the Black would be most interesting to try, in my system.

Raul – I know you don’t like tubed phono stages. Yes, there are minuses, but plusses too. It is not like I go to friends places with solid-state stages and then when I get home I hear “fake” sound. I suggest we agree to disagree on that one. We agree on the tonearm, however.  The Atlas + SME V combo has a low ca 7hz frequency. But is it an issue? I thought so, but was probably wrong. The real reason for the problem (woofer pumping) seems to be the diamond/cantilever connection gradually going bad, until the diamond got lose and then finally fell off. It happened after 12-1300 hours (I recalculated).

The Titan i has maybe 1800 hours, but happily, after a little adjustment, still runs fine, although a little worn-sounding. After more adjustments most of the worn sound (harshness and sibilants, muddy bass) was gone, and I was reminded of what a great cartridge the Titan i is.  Going from the Clavis to the Titan was a larger step up, for me, than from Titan to Atlas. But this may also be due to a problem with the Clavis (riding too low). So yes, a retip and boron cantilever may be a good idea, when the Atlas has been fixed (for now, I need the Clavis as backup).

My SME V does not have mistracking issues. Mistracking occurs only when the vinyl groove is really bad. I did some testing of the arm bearing and found no problems. Maybe the Atlas tracks best, then Titan, and then Clavis – but they are quite similar. If the record is reasonably OK and the arm is fully adjusted, there are no tracking problems. This behavior is very different from the Souther/Clearaudio Triquartz parallel arm I had before, I never managed to get it to control the cartridge properly.  With the SME V – no problem. The rigid construction, materials etc probably means that it can work well even if resonance is on the low side. The Titan, weighing ca 1 g less than the Atlas, is less challenging in this respect (and the Clavis, weighing even less). I can confirm that reducing effective tonearm mass by shifting the counterweight towards the arm base, taking off the upper bridge, and similar, does not have much impact on the resonance (testing with the HFN record). It became only a tiny bit higher, from maybe 7.1 hz to 7.2 if I remember right; it did not seem worth it.  

I am considering a Koetsu Black offer here on Agon, but have to check on the production year and the number of hours. The underside is black, not gold as I've seen from review pictures.

Raul suggested - get a boron cantilever for the Lyra Clavis. I guess my model has a  "Ceralloy" composite cantilever. What would be the sonic benefits?

I also wonder - would it be worth it, considering my experience with Lyra carts over the years. Comparing Clavis, Titan and Atlas, there is no doubt there has been improvements. Lyra made several step up attempts (Helikon, Evolve) trying to improve the Clavis. The first new line "flagship" was the Titan, soon followed by an improved "i" version. I had both, and the "i" version really was a main step up, compared to the Clavis. Putting the Clavis back in my system, my first thought is: "hi fi sound". It sounds restricted. Like sound we put up with, twenty years ago. Putting on a different cantilever probably won't solve the problem. But who knows? I've seen some serious Clavis tweaking on the web, including a semi-nude, holed up, version of the body.

Testing some more, the Titan i. Yes: The Yes album, and Fragile - UK originals.Certainly heavy duty fare.The cart is mainly up to it.Not much congested but a bit flat and hard on the highest dynamic parts of the music.The Atlas tones this down and - all in all - delivers more information.But the Titan, properly adjusted, does very well indeed.Some is a matter of taste - on this level.The titan is a bit like a "panzer in the desert", less humane than the Atlas - more direct, but may sound great e g on electric passages. Maybe a bit tighter than the Atlas in some respects. Bass is fast and tight.

I love form and finish as a final solution in a product. A beautiful-sounding cart should have as good a material design and form and look as well as possible. But more than that? I get sceptical. If the sound is so-so, does it help me if I look at the beautiful cartridge? No, it is totally irrelevant. So all these exquisite stones and materials, the "look good" carts, who do they appeal to, serious listeners, or rich people wanting to show off?

Atmasphere - glad you like Yes -or like me, their best parts. Pipe organ - I will check.
Invictus005 and rauliregas - a case in point could be Doors albums. Recorded through tubes at first, s-state later. Giving a more hard, flat sound, to my ears. Although much is forgiven when I listen to the Analogue Production 45 rpm double LPs of the albums.Koetsu Black is off the map for now, has been sold. Not sure if it would be anything for me anyway. Much is shrouded mystery it seems. One writer states that carts even within one model sound widely different. Lyras have a consistent sound, Koetsus not.
 

Atmasphere - listening to Yes Close to the edge, side B track one with a heavy organ solo, I dont hear any breakup. Where do you hear it? I have a ca second press UK.

sublmnl - thanks - thats an interesting experience you had with the Frog mating with the SME IV. One might think that the arm was a bit heavy but apparently not? Compliance seems very high - 35? When I put the figures into the vinyl engine calculator I get a problematic 6hz resonance. But no problem (rumble, vinyl noise, overdone deep bass) in your case?

Right! I have originals, some UK, some US - so I think I will resist the Steven Wilson remaster.

tsloan - I love the Atlas, no problem, but it needs repair/retip. My friend had a Helikon on a SME V and could never get it quite right. I think the Titan was a better cart. So, for me, it is more a question of trying something new, and have a backup cart.

It may be that with good tonearms like the SME V, the resonance calculators and test record results are not very indicative. You may have a very good sounding cart, with no perceived problems (maybe, depending on system resolution in low frequencies), even if the cart-arm resonance is  7Hz or lower. This might be a way to explain the very varied user results. Cf sublmnl, with the Frog, above. By the book it should be problematic, by the ears, it was great.

tzh21y - Benz Gullwing - could be interesting, thanks. 0.35 output, 12.2 g, compliance 15. Wish I had one, to try.

Ideal requirements:

1 My phono stage plays fine with carts from 0.25 output and it can probably sound good (with quiet tubes) with just 0.20 too. But in my system, it really shines with higher output carts, like 0.5 or 0.6.

2 The SME V effective mass is 10.5 g. Other things equal, a lower weight cart (10.5 grams rather than 11.6, for example) offers more room for increased compliance. The Titan and Atlas have the same specified compliance. Yet the Atlas, due to 1.1 g more weight, pushes the cart-arm resonance further down (towards 7hz). It may be a problem, in some systems. The compliance of the Lyras is around 20 (at 10hz). This seems to fit the energy-absorbing SME V with its rigid structure quite well. But with greater weight, it may be too much of a good thing.

3 I have not been able to clarify exactly what SME V users prefer, regarding carts, should they be low weight, low compliance, or what. Maybe the diverse experiences testifies to the qualities of the arm, it can take on many comers. Some users report good results from cart-arm combinations that don't fit the resonance calculations. Nevertheless, I want to follow the common rule. The resonance should be around 8-10hz. This means 1) a lighter and/or 2) a stiffer cart, compared to the Atlas, 11.6 g with a compliance ca 20. 8-12 g is probably OK for the arm, but compliance should be a bit down if the cart is weighty, more like 14-16. 

So I end up with: output ca 0.5, weight 8-12g, compliance 16 or lower.

Snackeyp, markmendenhall - Kiseki - yes, this is an interesting alternative. I read a very good review of the purple heart. Pricing is not up in the sky. Output is a healthy (for me) 0.48, weight only 7 g, so even if  the given compliance of 16 is Japanese (at 100Hz), it may work.

I wish I had the finance to try all the good suggestions offered - Koetsu, Kiseky, vdH, Benz - it would have been useful for all. For now, I fall back on my Lyra Titan i, still doing a fair job, and I must consider a new cart carefully, for financial reasons.

I agree that the arm / cart combination is very important. Ideally we would be able to listen to several combinations before buyng an expensive cart or arm. We often can’t do that; such is life. So the issue becomes, does the combo behave reasonably good, or "good enough". Here, there is now considerably more leeway, according to the debate I’ve read. New good arms are able to take on a large variety of carts. And vice versa. More products sound fairly good (thanks gods) combined with each other. However, there is still the "optimal" factor that Ralph mentions, important by itself. Although, in my case, I doubt if changing to another arm, from the SME V, would solve my cart problems.

I have mainly done like Chakster proposes. Cartridge first. Start from the source. Then, trickle down, to get the best from the new higher resolution source. Maybe get a better arm, table, phono stage. This strategy has worked well for me. Yet I have not compared a lot of tonearms. Starting from the tonearm seems a bit strange - but who knows in this hobby? Using Lyra cartridges, Titan and Atlas, I have no major complaints regarding SME V - cartridge compatability. Even if the Atlas, ideally, might have a tonearm that "soaks up" the energy even better. What I do know, is that the SME V is a good allround arm, better than "outlier" cases like the Souther/Clearaudio parallel arm. Possibly a longer arm would be a plus, but there are minuses too, going away from the main middle path (defined by the SME V and other classics).

I’ve not been able to compare tonearms. What I can say it that the Lyra Atlas cart, replaced in 2018 after problems with my 2013 version, sounds very good with my SME V arm, and displays no obvious problems with frequencies, arm/cart resonance, or mistracking.