Giving up on Power Race, and going SET?



Has anyone completely turned around and went back with "primitive" audio components. Set and Horn's? I listened Avantgardes and they completely changed my outlook on whole stereo hobby. Unfortunately very good horns are rare as the price of the Avantgardes indicates. I would like to hear from the enthusiasts that went back to basics! Thanks!
lmasino

Showing 8 responses by lugnut

What a thread! The collective intelligence of the posters is really something. I've enjoyed this a lot and NO, my tongue is not planted firmly in my cheek. It reminds me of an event in my personal life that has nothing to do with audio but it applies here none-the-less.

I spent several years constructing a car for triple duty. A street car with reasonable manners and killer good looks, a very fast quarter mile drag car and one capable of competing in the Nevada outlaw road races. All of this was to be done on 92 octane gas without nitrous or forced air induction. A change of tires would be allowed for all three types of driving.

While cutting and welding and doing all it takes for the required safety measures as well as the "looks" department I pondered all of the different ways to have the power levels needed and retain the durability demanded by such an engine. I relied heavily on technology developed by others and attempted to really do this honestly. You know, you can hang plates on a race car and install mufflers, but it's still a high maintenance race car.

I went through all the calculations projecting power output and when the motor was finished I engine dyno-ed it and after it was in the car I chassis dyno-ed again since the latter more closely duplicated acceleration in the car. Being in a rather small area here it was impossible to keep the measured results secret. Of course, there was a lot of talk behind my back and most of it was negative.

If you took the advertised power gains of the camshaft, the cylinder heads, the piston design, and all the other bits and pieces that went into this motor it would have satisfied the needs of a top fuel dragster. The computer programs predicted close to 700 horsepower. The dyno said it made 520+ hp and 495 lb/ft of torque. Was this a disappointmnet? Not in the least. It had 80% of it's power available at idle (1200 rpm). Of course, everyone knew what it actually made and my first pass at the drag strip was the talk of the track. When asked what kind of times I would run I only replied that I would run a trap speed of over 120 mph.

There were many cutting remarks made and stupid challenges offered prior to my first pass. Comments such as, "Tim has 650 hp and only goes 114 mph" and "No way, you ain't got enough power, besides, how will you hook on a 10" wide tire?" By the time I did my burnout I was depressed in spite of the confidence I had when I woke up that morning. I was wondering if this was going to be a huge disappointment.

My D.O.T. approved tires were actually little more than slicks with two grooves in them and carried a pressure of 8 lbs. The car is a manual transmission and my calculated launch rpm was 5800 rpm and the shift points were at 6200 rpm. So, I stage, come up against the launch rev limiter and when the lights came down and I released the clutch all I saw was sky. When I shifted (3/4 of a second after launch) I again was looking at sky. Guys, this was the quickest 10 seconds of my life. On a 105 degree day at a track elevation of 3500 ft. I pulled 126 mph. Later in the day as I buzzed the engine beyond the measured shift point the speeds went up. 7200 rpm shift points worked best and I approached 130 mph in 1320 ft.

The insults and the challenges came to a stop and were replaced by oohs and ahhs. When asked why my car was faster than Tim's car with 650 horsepower I replied, "My horses must be bigger than Tim's". For your consideration I offer the following: The class I ran in was comprised solely of trailer queens being full race cars. Mine was the only one driven to the track and back home and it was a small block. Nobody but a a dragster and an altered exceeded my mph.

My point is: math and measurements are important but bench racing is pointless.

Cheers,
Patrick
Zaikesman,

Send me an email and I'll send back a photo or two of the car.

What we need here is to line up and have a heads up audio race. Seriously, I wish we could have a small time convention of Audiogon members, perhaps on a regional level. I would be willing to invest some cash to help with renting a room and setting up a members system. We could then A/B as quickly as we could change rooms. I know it's only wishful thinking on my part but the benefits would be huge.

It's obvious that there is more than one way to skin this cat. What's important to me is getting the most bang for the buck.

Clueless, please continue to post. I know that there are some rude folks here sometimes and the same questions get asked over and over. There are quite a few old regulars that have quit participating and I would miss you if you weren't present.

Twl, continue to beat the drum. I know you are onto something that's bigger than most folks can comprehend. I admire the direction you have taken.

Brulee, Unsound, Jctubes, Dekay and others, I enjoy your posts and appreciate the insights you provide that I can't get any other way. I'm not trying to be overly senitmental but just want you guys to know that reading what you write is important to a lot of folks and maybe we don't recognize your contributions enough. I just hope I can occassionally provide a little help to someone.

Happy listening to all,
Patrick
Onhwy61,

When I tool around I don't need any. The car is very quiet. When I race it is loud at wide open throttle (still through the mufflers) but with a helmet and the windows up, which is mandatory, it's so muffled it's like wearing ear plugs. My competitors all have open exhaust. I wear ear protection as a spectator.

Patrick
Zaikesman,

It's a '67 and a 406 small block Chevy. It is my garage but neat'n'clean is a sometimes thing!! Thanks for the kind words in your reply email. Regarding the windshield wipers, or lack thereof, I can pop them on easy enough but they lift from the windshield at the track and act like they will be torn off. The hood does the same thing. Being fiberglass it lifts and shakes something awful at trap speed. The Boise area is high desert and rarely rains. It's a very nice climate here if you like mild weather and close access to snow.

Patrick
Albert,
I don't have a clue how somebody can put together a car of that wieght. I know it can be done but I can't do it. Get this, I started out with a car that already had a V8 and weighed 2850 lbs. So, it's got aluminum heads, intake, radiator, fuel cell and wheels. The interior only has two racing seats and the door panels are aluminum although they are also powder coated. It even has a fiberglass hood. So, it weighs 3185 lbs. after all that. For everything I did to lighten it up I had to do two things which made it heavier. Such is the price I paid to make it rigid and safe. I envy that light car. Doesn't take a lot of motor to make 1650 go fast and that's cool. Sounds like Tom's Holy Grail/Lowther combo.
Albert, Too cool! Let's see, a 9,000 rpm small block chevy in a 1650 lb. car. Hmmm, assuming it could keep the tires planted on the pavement, I would guess about a 10 second flat quarter mile at around 135 mph and top speed? Big time fast....180+? Anyway, it's rare and even though highly modified from factory configuration I can see the value rise you missed. If we would have kept all the cool cars we had when we were younger they would have paid for a modest retirement. Do you think our vinyl will do that?
Tom,

I have an acquaintence that runs a 69 Camaro Z28 that runs in one of the NHRA Stock classes. He pulls 12,500 rpm shift points. If you consider the favorable stroke/rod angle with a small displacement small block as compared to the huge stroke in my 406, you gain more respect for my motor when I buzz it to 7800. Pretty spooky stuff as that's where the rev limiter is set when I miss a gear. Geez, I gotta get out of this car madness. I could buy a lot of stereo gear for the cost of a broken motor.
Tom,

The pushrods aren't really the problem at rpm. It's the spring pressure that makes them flex. In this type of motor (and mine as well) we use a rev kit which is just too cool. You use a lighter spring on the valve and beneath the cylinder head, inside the lifter valley, you have another spring set that goes into the roller lifter that works in harmony with the other spring on that valve. Just imagine a spring at the valve and a spring that pushes the lifter down. It takes a lot of stress and flex out of the pushrod. Also, we can use 7/16" big block pushrods. Of course, both the top end and the bottom end use stud girdles. I'll try and find a rev kit photo and send it to you via email.