GaN amps: Peachtree or LSA Voyager?

@kuribo perhaps you are advocating too hard that an amplifier must be technically perfect. Alternates to perfect can sound better to some. However, I understand also your general frustration.

Where have I advocated for technical perfection? Where have I said that some people can't like whatever they want?

There is no such thing as technical perfection, but there is good and bad design practice, as well as outdated tech.

Everyone has and is entitled to their own opinions. When people start claiming they know what is better or best for others, then the bs meter starts ringing. Especially when they offer you better or best with a price attached and tell you it's not measurable and has no scientific basis, just "trust them"...

 

It has nothing to do with ego, the amp is what it is and the load dependent frequency response is a simple fact.

When people come here asking for information I take them at their word that they are looking for factual data. Clearly some don't want that. That's fine.

I have no self interest in this choice. I am not trying to sell anything.

If you believe audio is a religion, you have found your savior. Perhaps he can perform a miracle and turn your poorly designed amp into something magnificent. Just remember: Jesus never charged for his miracles.

Best of luck.

Unless you like load dependent frequency response like the old Tripath class d amps from 20 years ago, I would avoid the Peachtree or LSA Voyager modules like the plague. Old class d designs with the latest flavor of the month, GaN. Too bad they use too low of a switching frequency to exploit the real advantages of the GaN devices.

Orchard on the other hand has a state of the art design and while they still don't use a switching frequency high enough to really get the benefits from the GaN devices at least they use a proper circuit and don't have a load dependent frequency response.

There is also Purifi which is the current state of the art. They don't use the GaN devices because, well, they see no need- they have a very clever design which produces an amp with stellar performance, both measured, and, if all the reviews and customer opinions are to be believed, has great subject performance as well.

Look into Purifi and Orchard. There was a review of Orchard's amp in the latest AudioExpress I believe.

The only thing infinite here is the bs being slung by profiteers who constantly shill their snake oil and prey upon the audio nervosa of the uninformed and insecure.

It is an indisputable fact that the Peachtree and Voyager used GaN modules have a load dependent frequency response. That means that they will sound different with different speakers and at different frequencies with the same speaker if it is one with a widely varying impedance. It may well be appealing with some speakers and yet not so much with others. This was a known issue with the old Tripath class d designs as well as I mentioned previously. It is a less than optimal design which has been solved and overcome by nearly every class d design in the last 20 years. It’s a known and potentially serious issue. It’s like a car that handles differently depending on the temperature outside: when it’s sunny and warm, it performs like a Porsche and when it is cloudy and cool, like a Pinto. If that makes you happy, then by all means enjoy the Peachtree and LSA module.

Anyone who takes the time to educate themselves and does a little reading will find that there are no real benefits to GaN devices when used in class d amps at low switching frequencies other than marketing appeal. There can be real benefits- but only if they are implemented in such a way that those benefits can be utilized. Low switching frequencies do not do it. Hand waving won’t do it. Read.

And here we have another audio fallacy: feedback is bad. Again, anyone who takes the time to read the latest research and listens to amps like the Purifi, Orchard, Atmosphere’s new class d, etc., will realize this old trope is based on a lack of knowledge or in this case, more self interested tweak sales.

Notice how every comment about these class d amps includes a self serving comment about how "I can improve them"? It’s a nonstop sales pitch filled with falsehoods. The Purifi and Orchard amps have been designed and engineered to do exactly what an amplifier is by definition: they take the input and make it bigger with as little distortion as possible. If you want to add distortion and give an amp some sort of euphonious sound profile, use DSP which is much cheaper and without all the dishonesty. And you can tailor the "sound" profile to what suits you, rather than what suits your local charlatan.

 

@kuribo Debate? Who the hell wants a debate? I can look at the specs of the various amps and compare that for myself, but as most of us know that is only the first step. The proof is in the puddin, as they say, and the puddin in this case is completely subjective.

So first you read the specs and objective information, then you ask strangers on the internet their opinions of the products, knowing nothing of their tastes, preferences, listening environment, etc.? And this is how you evaluate the "pudding"? You haven’t even dug deep enough to understand the design and performance shortcomings of these GaN amps. You claim to understand the subjective nature of audio equipment evaluation, yet you come here to solicit subjective opinions which in fact can not be trusted to tell you anything meaningful as far as how you will perceive these products. Some people will like them, some people won’t, and the slime will try to sell you something. It’s called noise and it’s all these kinds of threads ever generate.

Regarding the ’self serving bs being slung’ around here, I asked for it. I find it useful.

Useful? Really? How so? Snake oil salesman shilling their fraudulent claims does no one any good.

I offered factual information on these two products which you clearly had no knowledge of. If you are truly looking for useful input, rather than hand holding and self confirmation, there you have it. Rather than be rude and insulting, you might give some thought to the fool’s errand you are on in seeking the approval and subjective opinions of others.

@markmuse wrote:


"I would be more inclined to pay attention to what you have to say if you were not so negative and condescending. You might actually have a useful contribution, but I'm having a lot of trouble getting past your attitude."

You mean like this:

Now get back into your cage unless you have something useful to contribute.

Pot, meet kettle.

Best of luck to you.

So calling people "snake oil saleman shilling their fraudulent claims" is not rude and insulting? Those that actually listen know you are the shill here......here to promote your perception that "measurements rule". You don’t get any money for your stating your opinion.....but you get to make others wrong and therefore get to beat on your chest.

All you do here is advertise and promote your wares which you have never been able to support with any accepted science. It’s all nothing but subjective opinion at best, praying on the ignorance and insecurity of others. You push your own subjective opinions on others with your constant spiel about "improving" the sound any new product you think you can make money off of, yet by your own admission these "improvements" aren’t anything you can substantiate by any objective means. This is the definition of snake oil.

No, I have not and have never said measurements are the be all and end all, but what I have said is that an amp that measures poorly isn’t a good amplifier by definition. Unlike you, dear guru, I don’t try and tell people what sounds "better" while I put a piece of foil on their head and remove their money from their wallet. There is no better, only different. As I said, if people don’t enjoy an amplifier that is designed to produce a larger signal than it is fed, they can add their own distortion with dsp for a lot less than what you charge and tune the output to their tastes, not yours.

And here you are shilling your newest "product" yet again, proving my point that all you do is push your snake oil in what is suppose to be a non-commercial forum. You have no shame.

Oh, and calling people frauds and shills is not rude if it’s the truth. Enjoy your shoes Cinderella.

I do actually listen to things, as I have said all along. I just refuse to follow you and the lemmings over the cliff every time you declare some new magic scam. I don't need you to tell me what sounds better and neither does anyone else.

I am quite happy, except when I see the never ending bs being heaped on people here about your magical "improvements".

 @tweak1 

My audio experience is quiet extensive, going back some 30 years before I was a partner in Audio Tweakers in the early 2000s.
 

If you understood why your subjective opinions and experiences mean nothing to anyone outside of yourself perhaps you wouldn't post this logical fallacy called an appeal to authority, in this case your own.

Read carefully what @atmasphere has written.

Sure, you can trust your own ears, and ignore the measurements and science, that's fine for you. The problem is there is no reason for me nor anyone else to trust your ears.

Like it or not, an amplifier is defined asa device that increases the amplitude of a signal as high in fidelity as possible. We can use science to evaluate its performance as an amplifier. Some people want a wire with gain. Others prefer sweet distortion. To each his own. When an amplifier fails in a gross way to achieve it's design objective due to variable frequency response with load, it's not a good amplifier. It may make you happy, but it's not a good amplifier by definition.

As to the tweaks that can't be measured or substantiated in any scientific or objective way, they are fraud, pure and simple. If you and others want to shell out money and support the charlatans who are all too happy to take your money, please feel free to continue to prove PT Barnum correct, as so many others have.

KooKoo-ibo

you should read the crap you wrote in your own response as well as Ralph’s but I know you won’t figure it out, so no further response from me.

When you have no logical argument to make and can’t support your position with facts or reason, the best thing to do is to just shut up and go away. At least you understand that.

@niodari




There are three ways to go about your search: you can take the educated approach and learn a bit about the different tech used by the different class d amp designers/manufactures and try to understand why and how, and listen to several that spark your interest or impress you with their objective performance; you can be rationale and ignore all the tech and numbers and just listen to several until you find one you like, or you can play craps and spend time on audio forums collecting opinions from random people (many with ulterior motives and little knowledge) and hope that a random opinion agrees with your own tastes and preferences and that said amp has a synergy with your other components and room- maybe you somehow hit the jackpot. Personally, I have never had much luck gambling.

Best of luck to you.



 

@kuribo , if you were going to buy now a class D amp, which one(s) would you choose? Or, do you think that much better class D designs may appear in near future, and hence would you rather wait until then? 

Current products by Purifi and Orchard are beyond the limits of human hearing as far as distortion is concerned. The limiting device in the playback chain is not the amp, it's the speakers and the room. I would advise looking into Purifi and Orchard with state of the art tech and performance and then turn my attention to other links in the play back chain.

@kuribo , if you were going to buy now a class D amp, which one(s) would you choose? Or, do you think that much better class D designs may appear in near future, and hence would you rather wait until then? 
 

How are you defining "better"? At this stage, the performance of several class d amps is excellent with distortion beyond the limits of human hearing. In addition to the technical excellence, several of these amps get rave reviews from a broad spectrum of reviewers and end users. I would look into Purifi and Orchard, see the reviews in Audio Express. Both are state of the art design, have extremely low distortion, and have a wide following. Unlike the Peachtree and LSA amps, they are not load dependent and will perform as advertised with any typical speaker load. Check them out.

By the way, I have owned Tripath, Spectron, Hypex (UCD and Ncore class d amps) and Purifi over the years and have followed the tech from these companies and many others over the years. Not that my opinion should matter, but I am familiar with the players and the products.

I'm fine with the listening experience. But when you are in it as a business having repeatable proof that your wares do what you say is a bit different!

Good to see someone here with a sense of business ethics.

it would be absolutely necessary to debate or at least discuss subjective opinions as that would be necessary to correlate objective changes to subjective impressions.


 

There is a mountain of scholarly research dedicated to the effort to correlate subjective opinions with certain audio objective measurements. The short answer is in certain instances general correlations have been found but these have little predictive power on a personal basis. In other words, you might find that 70% of those surveyed prefer x but does that mean you or I will prefer x? Not with any certainty. Ultimately, it's always a personal decision and no one can tell you what you will prefer with any certainty.

@niodari 


God won't fix the load dependent frequency response.

@kuribo , i didn't know that both of you are dealers/producers.




 

No, we are not both dealers/producers. I do not sell anything nor market any commercial products.

I don't believe that audio is religion

Not for those who base their decisions on rational thought, logic, and science. For those who blindly believe the baseless claims made by charlatans who take their money on simple blind faith, it is indeed a religion. That is the essence of religion: it's a faith based believe system. When we base our decisions on the opinions and unsubstantiated claims of others and disregard reason, logic, and science, we have become "true believers". Welcome to the cult!