frequency range for instrument vs speaker

06-18-12: Suteetat
Drew, thanks for your information. I certainly don't disagree that giving bass extension can help to improve midbass performance as well. However, I don't think that it would answer my question regarding playing music that contains fundamentals that are only 50Hz or above as to what kind of sound, information or contents those recording contains that are below 50Hz?

You make a good point that if speakers are strong, linear, and honest down to 40 Hz (not 50--it's just not low enough), you are going to hear most of the music and the system will come across as having excellent bass. However, a great number of speakers actually start rolling off around 100 Hz and have pooped out around 50-60 Hz and they are definitely missing something. Even augmenting such a system with a sub that itself rolls off at 36 Hz will make a positive and noticeable difference.

Furthermore, not all kick drums' fundamental tone is around 50 Hz; it depends on the drum size and the tuning. My vintage Slingerland 14"x22" has a lower thump than that, and many kick drums today are much larger, like 20"x24". Even the fundamental on a snare drum can provide a workout for a good woofer.

Another thing: the low E of a 4-string electric bass is around 42Hz, but many rock/pop bass players use a 5-string, whose lowest note is about 32 Hz. It's just one whole note above the bottom A of a standard piano. If you have a system that's truly flat to 40 Hz it'll sound strong on rock and pop, but if it's flat to 30 Hz you'll hear the difference on many recordings, especially later ones.

06-18-12: Suteetat
Johnnyb, thanks for your information. That's exactly the kind of info I am looking for. Any idea how low those bigger kick drum can go down to? I also have not been able to find much information about the big bass drum that are used in some classical music such as Verdi's Requiem, Stravinsky's Firebird as far as their frequency is concerned.

Yeah, I noticed that the concert bass drum isn't included on that musical frequency chart. I've heard the large concert bass played many times and have played them several times in orchestras. The big ones have to be making an honest 30 Hz and maybe lower. The difference between the big bass drum and the low A0 on a piano is that even on a 9' grand, most of what you hear live on the lowest key is overtones, but with the concert bass drum you're hearing primarily a very strong 30 Hz (or thereabouts) fundamental with a very strong initial transient. The effect is dramatic.

I'll be hearing one plenty this Thursday as I'm going to the Seattle Symphony performance of Berlioz's "Damnation of Faust."

06-20-12: Paulsax
I seem to recall that a typical electric bass guitar drops to mid to high 30's on the open low string. For some reason 38 is sticking out in my mind. lots of fronts will do that but the discussion on spl above my explain why the sub helps out.

If you check this chart, you will see that the low E of a 4-string bass is 41.203 Hz. For a 5-string, the low B is 30.868 Hz. Maybe that's what stuck in your mind (with a little modification). Or maybe you were thinking of Eb, which is 38.891 Hz.

Your second part is definitely true. You can't count on many speakers to make meaningful bass below 50 Hz. Many start rolling off around 80-100 Hz. Of course this depends on speaker placement, room-loading, etc. And more expensive speakers definitely go lower.

Still, if Wilson Audio tours the Alexandria XLFs with a pair of Thor subs, I'd say just about *any* loudspeaker would benefit from the right pair of subs properly blended.

06-21-12: Onhwy61

You can't count on many speakers to make meaningful bass below 50 Hz.

Way too broad a generalization.

Really? I've been in audio for 43 years and worked in retail for awhile. I've listened to countless speakers and read countless speaker reviews that include response curves. In most ported stand-mounted speakers, there is a 5-10 dB hump around 80-100 Hz that drops off rapidly below that. If you reference the bass response to 1000 Hz, it's often down 10-15 dB at 50 Hz. Naturally, the bass response on floorstanders will be better, but for the small footprint towers, not really by that much. Mostly it buys better sensitivity.

Only when you get into the larger and waaay more expensive floorstanders (and bigger stand-mounts like the stand-mounted TAD do you get serious bass below 50 Hz, and that select group IS NOT most speakers. Most speakers include all the junk that passes for hi-fi and the fact that mini-monitors far outnumber floorstanders.

(JohnnyB53)
I'd say just about *any* loudspeaker would benefit from the right pair of subs properly blended.

(Onhwy61)
Benefit to a bass obsessed audiophile - yes. Required or needed for music reproduction - no.

Bass obsession has nothing to do with it. If the subs are properly blended, they won't particularly excite the bass-obsessed. What they *will* do is provide a more linear extension through the musical frequencies to energize the listening area uniformly--more like a live concert--and reproduce very low frequency resonances of the original recording venue. In a symphonic concert hall this spectrum has a profound effect on the crackling excitement of in-room energy, even before the conductor raises his baton. This audible room energy separates listening to live orchestral music from what most people can listen to at home--unless they have sub(s) that go to 20 Hz or below.

If you look around, you'll find reviews of powerful subs with sub-20Hz response that add soundstage and room acoustics to recordings of solo guitar--which by itself reaches only down to 80 Hz.

06-22-12: Onhwy61
I think Frogman is correct, but it should be put into perspective. Suppose you were an audiophile with limited funds. Would you be better off pursuing bass response down to 20Hz, or compromise at 50Hz (with room reinforcement) and put more money into going for a better quality midrange and treble? Unless you're an absolute bass fanatic the answer is self-evident.

It's only "self-evident" to those eager to sacrifice an octave of the music for a little extra refinement. Actually, different music-loving audiophiles split up their priorities and budgets in different ways, and full range frequency response is one of them. All the imaging and transparency in the world can get annoying over time if a conspicuous part of the pitch spectrum is missing.

I think there's a strong case to be made for making a pair of powered subwoofers part of a speaker budget. Not because I'm a bass freak, but because it may be a smarter way to split up the frequency range--and the money. These days there are some stupendous stand-mounted speakers at $3K or less, with transparency, excellent dispersion and therefore uniform power response, treble extension, soundstage and especially pinpoint imaging.

At some point when you build a passive loudspeaker system and you go for full range, a lot of the money is spent on cabinet rigidity and damping to keep the big woofer from smearing the rest of the sound emanating from the higher drivers. With separate subs it's easier to retain the transparency and imaging of the mini-monitor while adding a low frequency foundation that does not cost too much on one hand and doesn't smear the rest of the sound on the other. How many of us have heard a line of speakers where the stand-mounted unit sounded the best while the floorstanding version lost some of the magic just to get another 1/2 octave of bass extension?

With separate powered subs you get to retain the magic while adding the foundation. You also have the option of placing the subwoofers where they mate best with the room. How many times do we move full range speakers around, finding that one spot gives the best midrange/imaging/soundstage but another provides the best bass? It's pretty typical. Separate subs fix that, and you don't have to be a bass freak to appreciate it.

Also, it's more cost-effective. You could get a pair of Cirrus Vapors with the external crossover option, stands, and a pair of JL F112 subs for at least $5K less than a pair of Wilson Sophias. You'd get all that midrange transparency and treble extension of the ribbons, plus inner detail owing to the Herculean bracing and cabinet damping of the Vapors, plus the slam and dynamics of the JL powered subwoofers. The total package is cheaper because you don't have to damp and brace the monitor cabinets to keep deep bass waves under control--they're in a separate box.

06-23-12: Tonywinsc
If you think you can just buy a subwoofer, drop it into your living room and add an octave to the range of your music, then you are deluding yourselves.

Why do I bother qualifying my statements with phrases like "properly blended" in my posts if you bulldoze over them like I never said anything at all. It's not like placement of a 350-lb. pair of full-range speakers with spikes is a piece of cake either.

OF COURSE you have to take special care in placement, phase adjustment, crossover adjustment, and level adjustment. Who on this forum wouldn't know that? I've seamlessly incorporated seven subwoofers into various systems in the past 7 years. I had a pair of subs in my living room and after living with them a few months, took about 4 hours to reposition them and re-adjust their settings. It was well worth it. I can now play large scale orchestral works (Berlioz, anyone?) on this system with engaging and credible reproduction.

Blending subs is a pain in the ass that can take anywhere from 2-4 hours to several days. But if it saves you $5K or more compared to the equivalent passive full range speaker, it's easily worth it.

As for the wavelength argument, my small towers are in an open architecture living room. There's almost no limit to how long a soundwave can form in my house interior--across the LR, up the stairs and down the hall, or across the living room, down the stairs, and out to the 18x22 media room.

Here's another thought: regardless of the size of the venue, if you have a subwoofer putting out a 25 Hz frequency, even if you're sitting well within the fully formed wavelength, the frequency is hitting your eardrums (and flapping your pantsleg) 25 times per second, and your brain will perceive it as such.

By your argument we couldn't hear bass below 180 Hz (about F below middle C) from a car stereo where the maximum interior dimension is around six feet.. Psst... we can.

06-23-12: Tonywinsc
Johnnyb, you explained it well. It takes a lot of effort and work to get it balanced across the broad spectrum. ... Like you said, you have to work very hard to balance all of that out and get it to work. You are taking great pains to get the reflections and the sources to all come together at the listening position. I still doubt you can achieve a balanced 20-20k in a small room.

Sorry; I have a nasty virus right now that's got me grumpy. You've been gracious and make good points. An advantage of the stand mount/subwoofer approach is that if you have to put your system in a smaller room you can dial back the subwoofer(s). Even a JL Gotham G213 can be turned down to reasonable levels in a small room, but you can't do that with a pair of Wilson Alexandrias (or other passive large full-range speakers) which will inevitably overload a small room.