Jonathan,
Thank you for weighing in, and clarifying the Atlas issue. I was not aware of the correction. I know Lyra is known for the high quality of their cartridges, and I myself am a very happy owner of a Delos, so it's good to hear it was a mistake.
Your linked posts were very informative on the issue of the RTA and SRA as well, but perhaps also disheartening to those, like me, who do like the idea of an industry standard that would allow an optimal setting for most records, rather than having to adjust for every record in one's collection.
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Perhaps to make matters worse, in the Manufacturer's Comments section, an Ortofon rep offers absolutely no explanation or even a mention of the problems, which Fremer spends a good portion of the review on. Seems like an awful PR job on Ortofon's part.
I agree with Lewm that for most analog audiophiles the review might be of little practical interests given Anna's price category, but if the top of the heap cartridges exhibit such defects, it makes you wonder about cheaper models, and whether you actually have to get lucky to get a defect-free cartridge, rather than the other way round. That's a pretty depressing thought.
Another interesting topic Fremer writes about before he goes on to review the Anna is the stylus lifespan, and effects of playing records with a worn stylus. Extreme profile styli such as the Replicant or line-contact apparently last for not longer than 1000 hrs under ideal conditions, which seems very short to me. Fremer actually says this is the situation with most styli. For someone who listens 20 hrs a week, which I think is on the low side for many Audiogon members, that would mean that they should retip or replace their cartridge after a year! Again, that seems nuts!
Finally, Fremer says that the proposition that a worn stylus tears up records is a myth since the edges of the stylus get duller, not sharper, with use (I guess that assumes no chipping or other damage to the stylus). I regularly hear right channel noise from used records, which I've always attributed to no anti-skating being used by the previous owner, so as much as I like what he is saying, I'm not sure whether I believe it. What's everyone's take on this? |
Onhwy61
Actusreus, if there wasn't an issue with faulty components would you be placing an order for an Anna? How is this relevant to the discussion? Who in this thread is placing an order for an Anna? |
Sarcher,
Good points. In fact, to your point, Fremer had his Ortofon A90 retipped at a cost of "a few thousand dollars, close to the A90's original price of $4200." To me, that's absurd. In my opinion, if indeed most styli can only perform best for about a year with moderate listening habits, which is an awfully short length of time compared to other equipment, one retip should either be offered if not gratis, at least at a fraction of the original price. |
Nandric
The cart producers get the whole cantilever/stylus combo from their supplier. The so called 'retip' is usually a simple substitution of this combo. The 'real retip' by which a new stylus is glued in the existing cantilever seems to be much more difficult job to do. So the solution of the 'stylus problem' is obvious. To 'virtually rebuild the cartridge' and ask unreasonable price make no sense to me. If one need to change the tyre one will rarely rebuild the whole car because of the tyre. No wonder the most of us use repair cervices like Ledermann , Axel Schurholz, Van den Hul, etc. I agree. Generous trade-in programs can be a partial answer to the retip problem as well. I know Lyra offers a pretty good trade-in deal with their cartridges, regardless of their shape. That's just good business as it provides a strong incentive for ownership continuity. But I still think a retip should not cost almost as much as a brand new cartridge given that the stylus will wear out even with very responsible listening habits and utmost care taken, possibly quite quickly if someone plays their records a lot. It would be unthinkable to have to pay nearly as much as the cost of an amplifier every time power tubes had to be replaced. But then I guess you can't just replace the stylus yourself... |
Swampwalker,
No, I don't think I do. It still does not justify the cost. And where do you stand? I think the issue warrants a serious discussion. |
Raul,
I do understand what you're saying and you make a good point. I'm simply bemoaning the fact that apparently there has never been A standard for cutter heads. I find it as frustrating as befuddling. And indeed it means that only individual evaluation and close critical listening record by record can result in an optimal setting that renders best sonic results. That to me is perhaps not unacceptable as an audiophile, but very disheartening nonetheless, and not something I ever considered getting into vinyl. I cannot possibly imagine spending months if not years adjusting the VTA to change the SRA to find out which setting sounds best for a particular record in my collection. Perhaps those with tonearms allowing on-the-fly VTA adjustment might find it manageable, but to me it is just not feasible, and frankly, well, nuts. |
Swampwalker
Acutusrex- Sorry to have offended you; I was just trying to light-heartedly say I agreed w you. Swampwalker, No offense taken; I gathered as much. To the rest of your post, I agree with your points, and I would too very much like to know what dictates those very high costs of retipping. This really had me scratching my head in light of the recent work I had done on my speakers. One of my tweeters failed, and I had it fixed (essentially rebuilt) by an experienced professional who does these things for a living. That entailed not only new materials and labor, but also "aging" the new tweeter to match the other tweeter. I was also told even things such as the tension of the screws matter and affect speaker performance and specifications. Those were things you just can't do yourself, if you want to have them done right. But the cost of the rebuilt was still a fraction of the cost of the speakers. So perhaps someone in-the-know can explain to us why a retip of a cartridge should cost nearly as much as its price when it's brand new. |
Onhwy61
I read the review and thought it was good reporting. Fremer clearly outlined all the problems he had with the product and gave a description of what he heard. I would catergorize the comments in this thread about price, cost to retip and cartridge life as besides the point. This is a cutting edge product reaching for state of the art performance and either you can afford it or you can't.
Ortofon is probably the largest cartridge manufacturer in the world. I applaud Ortofon for trying to advance vinyl performance. The cutting edge has never been plug in and play. It might be a cutting edge product on paper, but as long as you need several units to get what you paid for, it's still a dud. |
Dougdeacon
Why is that no one questions the person who buys and loves a $500K Ferrari, yet the person who buys and loves an audio component costing more than [insert critic's preferred standard] is vilified?
There are no websites dedicated to the proposition that all cars are created equal, that a well tuned Fiat is as good as a Lamborghini, that the Mercedes E-class owner is misguided and foolish. Yet we find reasonably popular audio websites (e.g., Audioholics) which fervently promote cheap as not just a viable way, which it is, but as the only right and justifiable way. Something about audio (more than other hobbies) attracts or generates "my way or the highway" defensiveness that approaches religious fervor. I've been guilty of that attitude myself - it's a peculiar institution. Doug, If I may respond just to offer my observations, I don't think anyone is "vilifying" Mike or anyone else who can afford an ultra expensive cartridge. Perhaps Ortofon got some flack in this thread, but I certainly welcomed Mike's and Onhwy61's comments about their Annas. Perhaps what you're referring to is personal animosity and attacks in general that seem to, way too often, accompany discussions on audiophile boards. That is very unfortunate, but is certainly not reserved for those with all-out-assault systems from my personal experience. Regarding the topic of this thread, I was simply astounded by Fremer's experience with a close to $9,000 cartridge, and Ortofon's complete ignorance of the issue in their response. As an audiophile/vinylphile, I have a keen general interest in everything that is related to high-end analog playback, whether I can afford it or not. The proposition that I should not be allowed to comment on a Stereophile article because I don't own an Anna, or am not about to order one, as expressed by Onhwy61, is absurd in my opinion. I also think your analogy to uber-expensive cars with respect to high-end music reproduction equipment, albeit tempting, is not exactly apples to apples. I think we'd all agree that high-end audio is unique in high-end consumer product industries as it often preys on the naivety, ignorance, or cluelessness, or combination of all three, of many audiophiles and sells overpriced products where more attention went to the packaging than quality of the parts and actual sound. Hence you have the value vs. price criticism that is a common theme in audiophile discussions. I don't have a clue whether a Ferrari is worth its price on paper, but I do know that when you get one, you expect nothing short of a flawless driving machine, and nobody would accept anything less, which is often not the case in the high-end audio market. So any comparison of a $500,000 Ferrari to car in a different, lesser class would be preposterous to anyone who knows anything about cars, let alone experts. That said, I'm sure you could find a few people who would find a Buick more comfortable than a Lamborghini, and better suited to what they think is the whole purpose of a car: to get you from place A to place B at a much lower price... |
Onhwy61, I read your comment in one of your post, "As an actual owner/user of the Anna I welcome your comments," to mean you owned an Anna. My bad. You're outraged about the Anna's performance or lack thereof. Well I'm outraged about the level of your outrage. I think some of the comments here are way over the top. Particularly so if, like me, you are not in a position to judge the Anna's relative value. I think you are misinterpreting what my original post was about. If not, we just might have to agree to disagree. I only commented on Fremer's experience while reviewing the Annas, not the performance of the product. I can't be outraged about the cartridge's performance since I've never heard it, and Fremer in the end gave it a stellar review. But as a vinylphile I was astounded (rage is definitely not what I felt, btw) reading the review. Astounded that it would take three units to finally get to a properly functioning unit and conduct a review of its actual performance, given its price and who was reviewing it. As a vinyphile with a passionate interest in anything analog-related, this to me is a perfect thing to bring up and discuss on an analog forum, regardless whether I currently own this cartridge. It either was a very odd and freaky set of circumstances or Ortofon has a problem that needs to be addressed. So yes, it should put a question mark on the Anna's value especially after Ortofon failed to address the issue in their comments, and we don't know why the problems occurred. That's why comments from actual owners are very useful in the discussion, and I certainly welcomed Mike's feedback. Why certain others chose to turn it into a personal criticism, I cannot answer. |
Doug and Swapmwalker, Your comments are always welcome so no need to apologize, especially after the thread took a wayward turn anyway. I still believe there's something special about audio that brings out emotional responses like few other subjects. I definitely agree. I also think Swapwalker made a good point regarding objective criteria in the high-end car industry vs. a more subjective nature of the high-end audio industry in comparison, which I think also applies to other luxury products you mentioned. The prices commanded can be for the most part explained by the laws of supply and demand, and further categorized by easily verifiable criteria such as diamond cut, clarity, color; Rolex model and materials used; same for Ferrari and other exotic makes; manufacture quality of a bag, etc. Sure the brand itself commands a premium, but the brand signifies top quality and performance, which can be more objectively verified than in the audio industry. I think therein lies the "problem." Nobody will question whether a Tiffany ring is worth $20K with the necessary certificates, but you'll surely see many who will tell you a $20K amplifier sounds like crap. As Swapmwalker noted, objectivity is not something we can easily employ in this hobby. |
Swampwalker,
I'm hand-writing "Swampwalker" 100 times as my homework as we speak.
"Swampwalker, Swampwalker, Swampwalker,..." 97 more to go...:) |
