Syntax. Thanks for your input. Did you compare previous generation Ikeda IT-407 or a recent model? I have heard that current generation arms are not as well built as earlier ones although they look the same |
Thanks Lewm and Syntax. Guess I will just stick with my FR66s then. BTW, has anyone rewired their FR66s? I did mine and it sounds better. |
Halcro,
Thanks for chipping in and agree with your comments. Everytime I see your TT-101, I get sorely tempted to hunt one down in Japan. I did see a TT-801 on sale but could not pull the trigger because I already have too many audio projects on hand. I had a SEAC WE-8000/ST too. I traded it in for a Micro Seiki MAX237. One of those things you wished you did not sell. Even rarer to find the SEAC WE-8000/ST than a FR66s. Where did you find yours? |
Lewm,
Understand where you are coming from and I can agree with your comments in general.
I had Dertonarm (Daniel B) change the wiring in my FR66s (Thuchan's recommendation). Wanted someone who knew how to work the FR66s and builds arms himself. I had him send the stock cabling and connectors back to me so I could see what they look like (I still have them). The condition of the stock wires and connectors (more than 30 years old) due to oxidation/age and the quality of the wires help convince me that it is a good thing to do. We changed to current generation Ikeda Silver wire so as to try and stick as close to Ikeda house sound. Daniel suggested that perhaps using Kondo Silver wire might even be better but I decided to stick with Ikeda.
I believe the stock wiring was also Silver since that is part of the original FR66s package (S standing for Silver). The FR66 is using OFC. (Unlike the FR64 which is aluminum and FR64s which is steel. Many confuse the FR64s as meaning silver. But silver in the FR64s was an optional extra. You get a label stating Silver on the armtube which mostly falls off unfortunately. I know because I once had 3 FR64s and only 1 had the original Silver label).
So, my opinion about the sound being better is not merely because of the material improvement (which is possible) but also because it removes the gung/oxidation build up over the years. I just get a little better detail coming through. Of course, we now have to also burn-in the new cabling. |
Halcro,
Thanks for the link to the WE-800/ST. $8K though is a little too steep for me now but ... LOL! Won't it be funny if I buy another and it's the same one I sold years ago.
A nuded TT-101? Woo, you tempt me. But I already have too many TT's. I have 2 SP10MK3 already. But ... |
Hi Lewm,
Yes, I understand about Silver Oxide being conductive also but I would think that having a mix of pure silver and silver oxide would have some detrimental effects, after all the audio community go to great lengths to get 4N/5N Silver with large crystals (OCC type) etc. Anyway, once you see the condition of the original wire, you will cringe.
Yes, FR64s means stainless steel arm tube. FR64 means aluminum tube. Hard to tell the 2 from pics except that the dynamic balance weight on the FR64s is long cylindrical while the FR64 is circular. Most people get this confused and many Silver wired version do not have the sticker on the armtube. I believe all FR66s comes with Silver wire especially if it comes with original B-60 adjustable VTA base.
I am in USA and send it to Dertonarm in Germany. But he was quite quick to turn it around. You should check with him though. He may be busier now with his headshells, arms, cartridge and protractor products. |
Jeff1225,
Thanks for your inputs. You have a nice system. I like the SIT amps too. The only SS amps that I can live with so far.
Yes, I am aware of the alternative view of the FR64s/66s from a few well known audiogon members and audio manufacturers like J Carr, Raul Ruegas and Thomas Schick.
Schick has a page on his website showing him dismantling an FR64s and pointing out his view on their deficiencies. But so far, those views have been for the FR arms and not for the Ikeda arms, as far as I can find. Hence, the original question on this thread was how FR compares with Ikeda arms. If you read the Ikeda website, it comments on improvements to the resonances of the Ikeda arm versus FR (different material structure) and also improvements in the spiral spring based tracking force. But I have yet to find any comments that say the Ikeda arms sound better than the FR arms.
My post started really because my audio friends did a mini-shootout between vintage carts (see review section) and also compared an Ikeda 407/Garrard 301 with a Thomas Schick/Garrard 401. Although the arms were on different TT's but being Garrards and using same plinths, I think we are close on the TT differences. However, at the end of the day, all of the group likes the Ikeda better than the Schick even with the SPU cartridges which are the Schick's best cart combo. So, again, sometimes what we hear is different from what the literature suggests.
Still, I am curious to get inputs between New Ikeda, old Ikeda and FR arms. |
Lewm and Halcro
I am very satisfied with the FR66s. In fact, through the years, while many others arms have come and gone, the FR was my first arm and still remains. I sold 3 FR64s to get the funds to move to the FR66s. It remains my favorite for the SPUs, Koetsu, FR7f/FR7fz and Ikeda 9.
In the mini review of vintage cartridges with my friends, we confirmed the advantages of Ikeda 407 vs Schick but was unable to compare Ikeda 407 vs FR64s. We had an FR64 available but that was below the Schick. But we understand that the FR64 is not the same as FR64s.
I am thinking of getting another FR66s but as you know they are hard to find and costly. OTOH, the Ikeda 407 is available, cheaper and performed quite nicely in our listening sessions. BUT, I have heard comments that there is also a difference between old and new (after Ikeda retired in 2012/2013) generation 407. Hence, my original post.
I guess I can find another FR64s but then is the Ikeda 407 better or equivalent to FR64s. Some have commented that the difference between FR64s and FR66s is very marginal. Any thoughts. |
Yes, I have done the Krebs mods on my SP10mk#. BTW, I have 2 units of SP10mk3, both with Krebs. It seems to make it sound quieter and more fluid. |
I have used a variety of headshells. I agree that these are important but need to be match with the cartridge. Unfortunately not enough is mentioned about headshells and leads IMHO. I like the Ikeda headshells for heavy carts and these have azimuth adjustment. The Yamamoto Ebony headshell is also good for medium/light carts but does not have azimuth adjustment. I like the Arche headshells the best though. Lots of flexibility in adjustments. For me, the headshell leads also play an important role. The Ortofon silver headshell leads is good. Which headshell and leads do you like? |
The FR66s has silver internal cabling.
But it's finally up to you, your catridge and your system.
|
Wow, this old thread that I started has come alive again after almost 4 years. Here's my update:
I now have 2 FR66s tonearms and they're still the best ones in my inventory. One thing I would like to pass on to others who may be interested is that Ikeda can service (clean and oil the bearings, replace broken connectors at the tonearm and base) and also rewire FR64 and FR66. I've had one FR66s serviced and rewired and I'm very happy with the results from Ikeda. Another point I want to share is that I had the chance to compare one FR66s with original silver wiring with another FR66s with rewiring done by Dertonarm on same turntable and same cartridge. The rewired FR66s was clearly better which lead me to rewire the original FR66s at Ikeda. FWIW. |
Nandric,
Woah! Not contradictory. You're taking comments made almost 4 years ago about how I like Dertonarm's rewire versus original FR silver wire and the latest comment about Ikeda's rewire.
Let me clarify. I like Dertonarm's rewire over original FR silver wire based on a comparison side by side on same TT and same cart because I have 2 FR66s. I then decided to get the Ikeda rewire done on the second FR66s and now both the rewired FR66s are very close. Can't really tell them apart.
One thing to note, when Dertonarm rewired my FR66s, he used Cardas male din connector at the base and reused the original FR66s connecyor at haedshell end because he couldn't find a replacement for those spring loaded pins.
Ikeda informs me that they replace the connectors at both ends with rhodium plated connectors. I can't hear any difference so maybe a moot point.
I live in US and had to sent the arm to Germany and to Japan respectively, so no difference to me.
As for price, you'll have to ask them yourself. I'm not suggesting that either Dertonarm or Ikeda is better. I recommend both of them highly.
|
Nandric,
Dertonarm told me that he used Ikeda silver for my rewire. I ordered Silver wire for the rewire by new Ikeda company. I could not hear a difference between these 2. But I heard a clear difference between original FR silver wire versus Dertonarm's rewire. I told Dertonarm about this and he told me that the Ikeda Silver wire he used is better than original FR silver wire.
As I mentioned before, I used the new Ikeda company to rewire my second FR66s because Dertonarm was now busy making tonearms and TTs etc.
I use the term "new" Ikeda because Mr Ikeda is clearly no longer with the current Ikeda which is making the new Ikeda tonearms and offering service for FR arms.
As a final summary, I just want to share with FR64 and FR66 owners that
1) Rewiring the original FR internal wires brings significant improvements. In my opinion, it's a worthwhile exercise.
2) Dertonarm's rewring service is highly recommended. Alternative is the rewiring by the new Ikeda company which is also highly recommended. |
Dear nandric,
I have the original FR silver wire that dertonarm removed from my FR66s. The construction looks much poorer (thinnner, pvc type insulation) compared to the Ikeda Silver. Plus it looks heavily oxidized. I did a side by side listening comparison, on same TT with same cart. Dertonarm himself said that the new Ikeda wire should sound better. Thuchan also agrees after he rewired his FR66s. You just seem to have great trouble believing that rewiring with Ikeda Silver wire has any benefits. That's totally fine. Please stick with your matured and aged wires. But allow me to post my findings freely to others who have FR64 and FR66 arms so that they may choose to also try themselves.
Your "beloved" ddriveman |
lewm,
My point about the silver wires is not who has better tonearm silver wire but that the existing FR64s and FR66s tonearms are about 40 years old and getting them rewired, either by Dertonarm or Ikeda brings improvements. In fact, I go to great lengths to explain that I hear no difference between Dertonarm's rewire and Ikeda's rewire. It's the other posters who have muddled up this simple message, claiming contradictions, fake news etc etc ...
Enough already! Jeez! |
@nkj
If you use the "Mint Tractor" from Yip, as suggested by nandric, and you want to use the Dertonarm recommended 231.5mm Pivot to Spindle distance, you need to tell Yip that P2S is 231.5mm.
And you will have to choose between Stevenson, Bearwald or Lofgren curves. Otherwise Yip will use the manufacturer's recommendation which is 230mm P2S and Stevenson as a default.
Good choice on FR64s. |
Just use the smart tractor. It invorporates the Dennesen and is more accurate. syntax uses it too since it was released by dertonarm. |
