Put a fork in me I am done. Mahgister makes some valid points that will no doubt be lost on some. |
So audio2design is Frank? I think Frank put something in Dougs drink they last time they hung out. Cool.
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I agree with antigrunge and my experiences with most components has been that use makes a serious difference in sound. I dont even care why this might be.
However, I read most of the article and I dont think that anything schroeder said was objectionable. In fact I am not sure he said much of anything. Kind of milquetoast. I agree with most of what was written, but am not sure why he felt the need. |
Hmmm. I cant really respond as I have no idea what you just wrote actually means. |
I missed the post about the stinky cables. I cant imagine having to go through something so terrible. Did you experience any long term psychological problems? |
Well I think it humorous that doug thinks he has more to offer in terms of opinion than the average hobbyist. Is believing in component change really a big deal and I would challenge doug to prove that this belief or many others he finds distasteful are deleterious to the hobby.
For some all amps sound the same, for others there is no difference in cables and others believe in any claim no matter how absurd. There is no proof in this hobby and I thought we were done with the idea that we can objectify the subjective.
Why in the world would I spend hours and extra funds to prove something that I have accepted and that I perceive as significant? This would be a total waste of time. But what I find most objectionable is the fact that he feels the need to ascribe reasons for those that dont share HIS opinion.
Hey Doug please refresh me on the qualifications of becoming a reviewer. Is there a degree, apprenticeship, or a school...I want to get me one of them high paying gigs.
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I respect Doug for writing the article but this was no act or bravery, perhaps a small act of bravado but I dont doubt he is trying to help so we should only admonish for his hubris and incomplete methodology. I mean truly it takes hubris to believe that your opinions matter enough to publish.
I doesnt help that he only uses digital. After I got my vinyl rig to an acceptable point, I cant hear anything of consequence with digital these days. And yes I have used some very good digital. Not matter how good, at least in experience, it is just like polishing a turd. Dont be haters...just my experience.
I might be willing to send you my Audio Dharma cooker but I dont think from this whole exchange you have indicated that you would be willing to admit any error. Kind of like sending a cable to Frank Van Alstine for review.
The one lesson learned is to not let your mouth write a check that your ass cant cash. I think we have dog piled him enough and lets just give him the benefit of the doubt because he published with good intentions. |
No the abx is not a truth teller. Check out all of the possible problems most if not all of them arise from the psychological phenomena of being tested. You either allow for any number of subconscious psychological influences on both sides or you dont get any. |
Doug,
Just a few things and then I think we have discussed this enough
If you can honestly say you use digital because you think it sounds better this will never been discussed again. But be honest enough to list any reasons other than sonics that you prefer digital to analog. My guess is ease, speed and time have a huge part in this.
You references to Frank V. dont move me. Did you you ever think he added IECs after the realization that this was a good business decision. His incorporation of IECs speaks nothing to his belief in cables and to imply that he incorporated this item after visiting you is a bit much.
Regarding ABX did you ever think he designed this to substantiate his previously held beliefs about cables and perhaps burn in. I dont think your inability or willingness to hear a difference exceeds mine to deny that there is none.
Perhaps the most frustrating thing to me is your ongoing references to your work being gratis as if this adds anything to its legitimacy and more importantly to your objectivity. You probably do what you do for the same reasons I started selling vacuum tubes over 20 years ago. Shows, knowledge, industry accommodations, etc. I dont buy this martyr stuff.
I should not have gone back to your original article. Really a Peachtree component?
Apologies in advance as this all was written and is a first draft with no checking. |
Russ is correct. Neither he, nor Doug can speak to each individual experience. Not hearing a difference isnt proof of anything. If Doug cant hear a difference I wouldnt expect him to buy into the whole burn in thing. However you cant blame people on this forum to comment and if Doug cant handle criticism he should not bring attention to his musings.
audio2 Well if you could create a blind test that wasnt perceived as a test this would be a start. I really dont feel the need for any type of test. I trust my personal judgement and my experiences. I would gladly participate in any blind test out of curiosity but I just dont think the results prove anything and it seems completely unnecessary. |
bobinwi,
You can call it science or psychoacoustics the truth is that there is very little in terms of scientific proof to support either side. The problems with blind tests are well known as are the manufacturers that make wild claims. Listen, decide for yourself and dont listen to any of the "experts". All of the inclinations conscience or not are just as present among the experts as they are among the hobbyist. But once you voice your opinion as an expert it is doubly difficult to go back and admit you were wrong. |
Just as I thought. Remember that I am presenting my points as opinions and possibilities not as scientific facts established through some sort of methodology. I never placed myself in a position of authority just as an experienced listener with valid opinions. BTW I have a friend with this Peachtree component as well as the D-5 (I think) speakers, I got them for his college-bound son. |
Rather than hearing it from me simply google double blind listening or perhaps ABX. Try to put yourself in the position of the person being tested.
So indulge me and tell me what exactly you would measure with the null tester and how this data could be in any way definitive. |
"Man who turn sideways going through airport turnstile going to Bagkok"
"Man with whole in pocket feel c*cky all day"
Just the ones I can remember
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How would you possibly know what I spend on audio and obviously you do care...alot. This much is obvious and it is really confusing. Just the fact that you state we are wasting our money really doesnt help your position not knowing what we own. Scientific facts achieved through psychic abilities I guess. So what do I own? I am thinking about it right at this moment.
I defer to all as providers of information and then I wade through what mirrors my experience. My silly stuff has nothing to do with science but I never ever bloviate. With your permission I will contact the moderators to make this a bloviate free zone.
Near tears. When we interact I feel like I just had the underwear in high school dream. You may not be making this stuff up but I think you are confused in when and how to apply. Science is not static nor is it as pure as some would like. Science is also full of scientists that create a methodology which at its very core is intended to do nothing more than prove their initial hypotheses correct.
So you decided on getting this current gig after designing the Hadron Collider? You did say about contributing to science so this is the scale which I thought was in keeping with the bloviating in paragraph 2.
And yes I am trying to have a bit of fun and to take a bit of starch out of your britches.
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I dont think audio2design is some sort of troll or has some failing I just think he and others feel some need to save us from ourselves and our hard earned dollars which I dont understand. This camp does usually seem to imply either gullibility or stupidity which is a bit frustrating. I defer to them as being wiser, more educated and having better hearing. But for now I thank the stars that I am stupid and gullible. Also you can throw in a bit of first world decadence for good measure. |
Doug this was directed at audio2design.
My point is that when doing evaluations regarding tweaks and the like quality of the equipment is critical. You may hear it on a budget system but not to the same degree or at least not in my experience. |
Doug,
The core problem is that you think your opinion has more credence than the opinion of others. I believe that for publications, the reviewers quality of writing is of more consequence than the ability to hear. When you add this preconceived notions, personal and professional industry affiliations with the need for ad revenue we have a fundamentally broken model in which true objectivity is illusive. This is especially true of the big 2, but is unavoidable at all levels. You cant blame the listener for succumbing to a myriad of subconscious factors and then deny that you are immune to any of these. At the end of the day it is simply one enthusiasts opinion and one with which I disagree. A simple disagreement is the whole of it. |
Bias is not the main problem. Is it that difficult for you to imagine that much of this hobby cant be empirically proven or accurately measured? Why does this bring you such a high degree of discomfort?
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