Fidelity Research FR64s Headshell dilemma

230mm Pivot to Spindle and Stevenson alignment method. 

There are also two versions of Feickert, the latest is NG

Orsonic AV-101 silver or black
AudioCraft or IKEDA

or a bit ligher AudioCraft and Fidelity-Research

watcha like ?

what is the size and weight of the counterweight on your 64s tonearm ?

The best protractor for all tonearms and turntables with all 3 alignment methods on it to choose is Dr.Feickert, there are some more expensive similar style protractors, but Feickert is "best buy".  It's very important to have PS ruler integrated on the protractor. 

People use mint if they have only one tonearm, this protractor must be made just for one tonearm. The worst solution for people with many diffetent tonearms. There is no PS ruler, too bad. 

If you see many people using the same protractor do you think it is a better protractor? I don't think so. 

Protractor with HiFi Test LP is free if Feickert is expensive. 

Stevenson alignment is absolutely fine not only with FR tonearms but with most of the Japanese tonearms designed for use with Stevenson by default. To make sure you can try alternative alignment methods (Baerwald or Lofgren or anything else) BUT try to detect a difference yourself before you will be affected by propaganda. Trust your ears, not some other users words. Many FR users reported that Stevenson is fine, we use FR headshell integrated cartridges this way and they are absolutely stunning (FR-7fz).

If Ikeda can’t detect it, i’m pretty sure you will not be able to detect it too. Ikeda designed this tonearm for use with Stevenson alignment and this is first thing you must try and use before you will change it.

MORE IMPORTANT:

In fact for your Denon DL-103 with its conical tip the alignment method is absolutely irrelevant! Why? Because the stylus is CONICAL. Before you will twist your cartridge in the headshell to align it with something else like Baerwald please try to understand what is conical tip and what it the result of all that tricks with alignments with this conical tip (absolutely not worth the effort) **

Fidelity-Research headshells are all different, this one (RS-141) is very nice!

Yeah, i'm not trying to say you have no idea how to set-up and align a cartridge, i just said that Conical tip is less sensitive to everything (to errors in adjustment of antiskating, vta, vtf etc) than for example Paratrace or any LineContact type of the stylus that require precise alignment and adjustment of everything (or they just don't play well). 

For this reason Conical used for professional needs on radio stations and in the clubs where everything can be off. 

@lewm

Chakster, In your parlance, does "NG" mean "No Good", which it would mean in colloquial English? I have the old original Feickert, made of white plastic with black markings, where the platform is the full size of an LP.

"NG" is for New Generation

You’re using an old version, right. That version is no longer available.

New version is metal, no platic parts. This is "Next Generation".

@dover

Just because the stylus is conical, does not mean alignment is irrelevant.
Offset angle affects tracking and tracking distortion - correct alignment will minimise tracking distortion caused by offset angle.

When you choose between Stevenson, Baerwald or Lofgren with any cartridge the offset angle is correct for each alignment after adjustment is done. The OP having problem with cartridge in the headshell, it is all the way forward with Lofgren alignment, so he can use Stevenson instead, with FR tonearm Stevenson is correct and no need to twist a cartridge in headshell in this case, cartridge will stay parallel to the headshell with Stevenson only (on this tonearm without changing PS distance). This tonearm designed by Ikeda for use with Stevenson geometry/alignment using correct PS distance (230mm) from the manual. Trying to altering factory setting is irrelevant for Denon DL-103 with conical tip on this tonearm, i would like to read OP’s comment to make sure if he could actually HEAR the difference between correct set up for all 3 methods such as Stevenson, Baerwald or Lofgren. But he does not have a proper protractor to re-align correctly between all 3 methods.

Does it make sense to try the FR tonearm like it was designed by IKEDA first ? Not altering anything.

AudioCraft headshells are excellent (after rewire) !

By FR-64 S the Stevenson geometry is assumed.

Exactly, this is how IKEDA designed his tonearms and it’s easy to check, because when PS is correct the stylus of his fixed (headshell integrated cartridges like FR-7fz) drops at Stevenson point without any adjustment, not at Baerwald or Lofgren, and ONLY in this position OFFSET ANGLE is correct with PS distance that stated in the manual and printed on FR template that comes with the tonearm.

Ikeda designed his tonearm with Stevenson alignment/geometry, period.

Everyone who think he’s smarter than IKEDA-SAN can experiment with alternative alignments or alternative PS distance, but in my opinion this is not necessary until a person can actually HEAR the difference according to his personal preferences.

I’m using FR-7fz with FR-64fx tonearm and this combination is stunning!

I can’t hear any f*****g distortion some people are talking about here. And i already have in use 2 more tonearms with Baerwald alignment next to my FR-64fx / FR-7fz combo with Stevenson. I can’t say which method is better, they are all good, no audible distortion for my ears (and my system is pretty good with all top quality components).

Anytime i have new tonearm and cartridge i follow manufacturer recommendation only, i trust to tonearm/cartridge designer more than to anybody else! Until i will be actually HEAR there is a problem i don’t care about all these pointless theoretical speech that one alignment is better than another.

Trust your ears (and experienced tonearm designer).

Stevenson alignment was the latest BTW (after Baerwald and Lofgren).

I know for sure that people lost their hearing abilities at certain age, i must admit i am far away from that age.

Using FR-64fx tonearm I can put my FR-7fz or SPU on Dr.Feickert and the cartridge body is perfectly aligned according to all lines printed on my protractor (for cantilever and cartridge body alignment). The stylus tip on FR-7fz or SPU is on cross point of Stevenson. This is 100% accurate and sound is simply amazing. This is all i have to care about, thanks to Ikeda-San.

Enough said.

With manufacturer recommended PS distance, measured by Feickert protractor, using one headshell with slots, i can reach all 3 alignment methods for the same cartridge.

The difference is that only with ONE alignment method my cartridge will be parallel to the headshell, with any other methods a cartridge must be twisted in the headshell or the cantilever and cartridge body will be way off!

I don’t want to change PS distance. Why i have to?

All i need is the right headshell to move a cartridge slightly forward and twist it a bit to make it in line not with my shell, but with Baerwald or Lofgren lines printed on the protractor. This is what happens when the arm designed for use with Stevenson must be re-adjusted for something else without changing PS distance.

It has nothing to do with PS distance, buy yourself a nice headshell first!

Another exaple is Technics tonearm on SL1200GAE, you can't change PS, and the alignment is NOT Baerwald or Lofgren, this tonearm is very close to Stevenson. Headshell with slots is all we need to re-align any cartridge quickly.

Bu why do you change manufacturer recommended PS from 230mm to 231.5 mm ? 

This 1.5mm can be easily adjusted in the headshell with recommended 230mm PS

@nandric PS has nothing to do with Baerwald, i can re-align any cartridge on conventional headshell with slots on FR tonearm without changing PS distance. I do NOT change PS when i re-align between Baerwald, Stevenson or Lofgren, it’s all about cartridge position in the headshell, not PS which must be fixed to 230mm on FR tonearm, same with Ikeda tonearm.

Anyone who use Dr.Feickert protractor can do that too, no need to change PS distance to change alignment method.

Stevenson case has been discussed million times on audiogon. Actually it was made for classical music you’re listening, not me.

I have many tonearms and use them according manufacturer recommendations, some of my tonearms such as Reed is always Baerwald, my Lustre GST 801 realigned for Baerwald without changing PS distance. My Denon DA-401 aligned with its own method and i like it. What else ? Technics EPA-100 mkII is very close to Stevenson like almost any Japanese tonearms and i can't detect any single problem with many cartridges.

Using FR-7 or SPU series on FR tonearm everything is just perfect as it is with manufacturer recommendations, PS according to the manual.

@nandric please read and look at the null points printed on the same protractor for different alignments. When we alight a cartridge we check 3 points step by step on Feickert. We do NOT altering PS, instead we just adjust cartridge position in the slots on the headshell to reach null points correctly. 

FROM DR.FEICKERT's PROTRACTOR MANUAL: 

"The general geometrical correlation of a tonearm based on a fixed pivot point are well known since the fundamental publications of Baerwald and Lofgren back in the first half of the 20th century. The conclusion of both papers was that such a tracking device must have an angular offset (zenith) with a defined overhang. The offset and the overhang vary with the effective length of the tonearm itself. While tracking the record the stylus matches tangential position in the groove at two points – the inner and outer Null points (linear tracking position). In the early 1960s another mathematician has calculated a new set of parameters taking into account that on records with classical music very often crescendos occur towards the innermost grooves (Stevenson)."

" **Step-1: Choose the geometry you want to use: Baerwald (B), Lofgren (L) or Stevenson (S).

Screw the gauge tower on the disc and place the Protractor on the platter. Aim with the pin in the gauge exactly over the pivot point of the tonearm. Move cartridge in the headshell so that stylus lands on the crosslines of your chosen geometry (B, L or S) at step 1 (overhang). In case you cannot reach either point on the Protractor please check your pivot-spindle distance.

Carefully tighten one screw a little bit and make sure you can still turn the cartridge in the headshell. Set antiskating to zero.

**Step-2: Turn Protractor so that you are over area of step outer Null-point). Set angular offset (zenith) so that the printed line on the Protractor and the cantilever of your cartridge fall in line when looking from the front. In case this is done carefully tighten both screws in an alternating way and take care the cartridge doesn‘t move anymore in this process. Caution! Don‘t overdo the tightening of the screws as really tight is followed by infinitely loose forever …

Double check your setup either at step 3 (inner Null-point) where the cantilever MUST fall in line with the printed line or you can alternatively check the overhang again at step 1. Both approaches are mathematical equivalent; if two points are correct, the third is correct by default. In case the cartridge still is off, then start again from the beginning by checking the overhang first and subsequently all the following steps again."  

" Having revised the math we found that for a given geometry all pivoted tonearms intersect with their tracking arcs in one particular point. This is a “unified overhang point” that can be used to adjust for overhang. Not only is the accuracy enhanced with this new Protractor, the complete setup process is much faster than it was before. "

By Stevenson 245 mm by Bearwald 246 mm

This is why a cartridge must be moved just a little bit forward in the headshell and a little bit turned to the side to align by cantilever using lines on the protractor.

As i said earlier there are many turntables with fixed tonearms, you can’t change PS distance, but you can change alignment method moving a cartridge only (in the headshell slots).

I think @atmasphere could cut an acetate too :) 
Any pressing plant can do that. 

This is so strange, do you really think that Ikeda, who designed all FR tonearms, and later went on his own with Ikeda tonearms, have no idea about "error" in PS distance ? IKEDA are modern tonearms, designed not in the 70’s like thos old FR. The PS distance is absolutely the same 230mm. In your opinion IKEDA did not realize an "error" in 20 years ?!

I have FR 64s, FR 64fx, Ikeda IT-345
For all of them PS is 230mm, but one designed in the 70s, another in the 80’s or 90’s

Not sure if this is directed at me @chakster but I am trying to figure this out too.  Why is the 231.5 recommended by some when the manufacturer recommends 230?

Question for everyone.

It's a conspiracy theory ? 

I just use what Ikeda suggested us to use, i don't care about some gurus. In a conventional headshell cartridge still can be adjusted for any alignment methods without changing PS distance at all. Some headshell have this type of overhand and slots to twist a cartridge body left of right. 

EL = effective length
The effective length is the distance from pivot to stylus.

When we move stylus in the headshell slots back of forth for different null points (Baerwald, Lofgren, Stevenson) we are changing EL (Effective Length). The difference is small, within few mm. Then we turn a cartridge left of right to align by the cantilever. This is it.

This is how anyone can change alignment from Stevenson to Baerwald without changing PS distance (as i said on some turntables it is simply impossible to change PS, like on Technics for example).

Anyway i’m following tonearm manufacturer method first, because in my opinion tonearm designer is the one i can trust. if i have tonearm with Baerwald i use Baerwald. If i have tonearm with Stevenson i use Stevenson (especially with FR + FR7fz series).

On my Luxman PD-444 i have armboards on the rails, i can move them, but not everyone have same armboards to change PS.

No one can change PS (Pivot to Spindle) on this turntables.
Got it ?

I’m really tired of this pointless thread, you can continue without me, thanks

I can’t hear this distortion or any problem at all with many tonearms designed for Stevenson alignment like world class Technics tonearms, Ikeda and many others. At the same time i have tonearms in use aligned and designed with Baerwald method.

My answer to the OP is a nice headshell with slots (not a short headshell with short slots), this is all we need to solve the issue, nothing esle.   

I use and like SAEC SS-300 mat, but never tried those tonearms, they are very very popular here, but it's knife-edge bearing design. Some people like them, i am not interested in SAEC tonearms, too many great tonearms available. 

Your ’’short’’ headhells are very frustrating
when one need to ’’wrestle ’’ with them in order to get them
connected with both : cart connectors and headshell connectors .
Add to that different dimensions of headshell ’’clips’’ for the
carts as well for the headshells connectors so who would
understand our hobby except by masochism assumption?

I want to quit from this discussion, i have great headshells that none of you using here for some reason, i always read recommendation for the shells i never use. So if someone have a problem with headshell i must say this is not what i use. I have no problem to twist and adjust a cartridge in the headshell for any geometry.

As i said AudioCraft headshells (especially rewired) are great and available in different size from short to long, ZYX LIVE 18 is modern headshell i use. Grace Carbon HS-6 and heavier Grace metal HS-8 is what i really like too.

As some other members i can’t hear that re-aligned cartridge (Baerwald) is any better than aligned cartridge (Stevenson) on many tonearms originally designed with Stevenson geometry.

P.S. Saec did it wrong, but the brand is gone, while IKEDA and Technics are still making tonearm and alignment is Stevenson.

If you’re able to hear the difference at your age than maybe i will have to wait 20-40 years, right now i can’t hear any benefit of Baerwald over Stevenson on tonearms originally designed for Stevenson. So i will follow manufacturer’s recommendation for each tonearm.

P.S. I don't read Rauls posts, not interested. 

@nandric haha, no i didn't mean any of your posts here :) 

I remember Yamaha YSA-2 straight tonearm with no offset, here is a discussion. 

 

The thread turned to the monologue of one person pretending to know everything better than others, but apart from the numbers claimed to be audible distortion i want to remind that there any many other components in analog chain with higher distortion than distortion caused by cartridge alignment. And people live with it and can't detect it. 

Of course that person can head all the distortion in this world and it's a problem for him if someone can't hear it (included world famous cartridge/tonearm designers).

Modern tonearm designers comes up with new ideas and no one in the reviewers world can't detect that horrible distortion for some reason, but he knows why, the answer is "they are s.......d people". They are all have to grow up to the level of our own audiogon preacher who knows everything better. 

ViV Laboratory is another example, it's straight tonearm with underhang (not overhand). And yes, the cartridge/cantilever position is also straight in this tonearm. The don't give a F about Baerwald alignment and all reviews are positive. 

@nandric this is not a linear tracking tonearm, look here (no offset angle at the headshell), a very old document here.

Yamaha is short and straight tonearm as you can see, yamaha is an old tonearm, but look at the modern high-end from ViV Lab (same concept with underhang and straight position of the cartridge in the headshell).

Now if anyone can hear distortion in this video please wright back

Tonearm manufacturers breaking the rules and they are doing it for decades, who cares about that Baerwald ? Who would buy those tonearms if they are not good ? 

Remember Swedish SAT tonearm ? 

Who is Chris then ? @nandric