Fidelity Research FR-64 vs. FR-54
- what kind of parameters take I in count to evaluate any home audio systems and its differences in between?: mainly the distortion levels, every kind of internal/external home audio system distortion. Raul, Always talking about distortion, but can you even prove the distortion level of your system is lower than any of our by any measure, other than the convenient saying of “I know because my ears are trained” ? |
Do you understand at least the complexity of what you are asking? Dear Raul, quite frankly, I am very disappointed! Being a distortion expert, you are still drilling on the distortion level of a single piece of equipment, when I was asking for the distortion level of the whole SYSTEM! The room is by far the biggest distortion generator in an audio system, and follows by the speakers! I would be very impressed if your room can achieve a frequency response 10 times the deviation of the IO, i.e. 5dbs from 20hz to 20khz. Have you ever measured the frequency response and noise level of your audio room, or is it still too much complexity to you? Oh well….. |
Also, we seem to be assuming that the stainless steel arm tube is completely empty save for the wiring. I don’t know that it doesn’t incorporate any sort of "stuffing" that might also contribute to damping. Hi Lewm, Here is an article by Thomas Schick on rewiring a FR64 (not sure whether it was the FR64S) http://thomas-schick.com/en/blog/fr-64 The second photo shows there was some black material clinging onto the internal wire harness, but I can’t tell whether it was just a piece of tape, or something like a shrink wrap. Either way, I don’t think it can be called damping, at least not for the armtube. |
The location of your equipment between your speakers and the proximity of the speakers and subwoofers so close to the walls is a severe restriction on performance. Hi Dover, I agree completely with you assessment on Raul’s room / treatment, especially the problem of putting all those turntables so close to the speakers. The airborne vibration, feedback to the turntable system when music is playing, is more than enough to wipe out all the so call low distortion measures of the equipment. Yes, most audiophiles do put their turntables in the same room as the speakers for convenience purpose, but for someone like Raul, who claims to have pull all the stops on eliminating distortions?!!!! |
I did it using Telarc 1812, Dafos and Firebird tracks not at 83db normal SPL but at 97dbs ( at seat position. ) with 109db on peaks and you know something: I can’t detect any vibration/resonance because that air borne. Really Raul? No vibration/resonance because that air borne? Why use a stethoscope when you have all those turntables setup, which is probably way more sensitive. It was nice that you mentioned you were also using a Stax headphones, I hope you (and anyone who thinks he doesn't have feedback problem), wouldn't mind doing the following simple test and let us know what happens. 1. Play music (your Telarc 1812 would be great) using your CD/digital system through the speakers at normal listening level (yes, that 97dbs ( at seat position. ) with 109db on peaks) 2. Lower the cartridge on a stationary platter / LP (i.e. motor off, platter not turning) 3. Connect the cartridge to the phono / preamp as usual, 4. Listen to the phono system with a headphone, preferably in another room. I doubt that you could have complete silence (or faint noise from the phono) at the headphone. I am pretty sure you could hear faint music through it (although it could sound funny as it has gone through the RIAA stage). If that is true, that means your turntable system is suffering from continuous feedback when you are playing LP, and you can throw all those 0.00002% distortion figures out the window! |
Oh Raul, if you perform the above test and come back telling us you really hear complete silence through the headphone, I would be very interested to learn how you / your system could achieve that! You were, maybe still are, trying to develop a tonearm, so you must know a lot about how the tonearm / cartridge system works, and have specific scientific knowledge about it. 1. Music, or sound, is basically a vibration of the air. So, the music playing through your speakers will certainly transmit the vibration to your tonearm / cartridge system, as there is nothing blocking its path. 2. As in your example, I suppose if you play the Telarc 1812 at 109db peak, you probably could feel the pressure on your chest. If there is so much energy transmitting to your chest, then how can the tonearm / cartridge be immune to it ? 3. A cartridge is designed to pick up the exact frequency range of the music, i.e. those coming through your speaker. So, even if your tonearm has absolutely zero resonance, how could it block / dampen the air-borne vibrations directly hitting the cartridge body. Like you, I always try to learn, so I would much appreciate if you could give some answers with scientific prove to the above. Thanks! |
I see, still babbling on the same old viewpoint, yet avoiding direct question about your system’s distortion. Typical! You were, maybe still are, trying to develop a tonearm, so you must know a lot about how the tonearm / cartridge system works, and have specific scientific knowledge about it. Apparently, the latter part of my statement above was just false! |
Raul, instead of babbling on the same old things, probably better if you could finish your ideal tonearm and show the world you are right! It is 2017 already you know? How many years have past since you told members here the arm would be ready "NEXT YEAR"? BTW, have you tested how bad the air-borne feedback problem really is in your room as mentioned before? |
Makes no sense to me that you ask for some tests in my audio system when I have to prove you or any one else nothing at all. Dear Raul, of course you have no obligation to prove to me, or anyone else, it is your system after all! Only that you always claimed to be willing to learn that I thought you would be interested in a simple test, which would take you less time to carry out than writing the response, to prove to YOURSELF whether airborne feedback was causing any problem in your system. Well, after all those distortion talks, I suppose it feels better living in the comfort of the pipe dream believing all is well in your system, than to venture into the potential horror of finding out airborne feedback is indeed causing distortions. The true horror was, of course, the claimed highly trained ears couldn’t even detect that! """ I suppose if you play the Telarc 1812 at 109db peak, you probably could feel the pressure on your chest. """ That is interesting, playing Telarc 1812 at 109db peak (yes, those cannon shots) without feeling the pressure on your chest! That really gives me a better picture regarding the performance of your system, thank you! Yes, you are right, I don’t have that in my system, I can’t imagine that, but then, I also don’t want that ! Interesting enough, you posted the following in another thread: Dear @enginedr1960: Yes, always near field live MUSIC is the perfect REFERENCE for audiophiles….. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/my-personal-experience-with-direct-drive-versus-belt-drive Do you really believe your chest wouldn’t feel the pressure if you were standing close to those live cannon shorts during the recording of the Telarc 1812? If you think the talk of airborne feedback is nonsense, then please take a look at what a true expert, Mr J Carr, who you like to quote to support your position on the FR64S, had to say (emphasis by capitalization by me) : BTW, I wouldn’t recommend combining the phono preamp together with the power amp. THE SOUND OF THE TURNTABLE IS TOO MUCH AFFECTED BY VIBRATIONS TRANSMITTED THROUGH THE AIR AND GROUND. FOR TOP PERFORMANCE THE TURNTABLE SHOULD BE IN A SEPARATE ROOM/CLOSET ISOLATED FROM THE VIBRATIONS AND AIR PRESSURE FROM THE LOUDSPEAKERS. If you were to go with a combination phono/preamp/power amp together with the turntable in an isolated room, the speaker cables would likely need to be v-e-r-y long. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/best-phono-preamps Of course, if you are happy with the current performance of your system, then by all means enjoy it! Best regards, |
Dear @thekong : Look, I never said that air borne does not produce vibrations/distortions. In the other side, I already did it that test. Dear Raul, great! So, did you hearing complete silent or a faint sound of music through the headphone in that test? The bass waves of fundamental notes in the 1812 cannon shots ( 8hz-16 hz. ) through a home system can't impact your chest because are not " builded, yet. . Are to big waves ( a little different in an open enviroment as how those shots were recorded. I have not this live experience, so I can't tell you about. ). These big waves normally came from the floor up and depending of that system/room handling is how you will feel it. If you can feel it in your chest then what you are feeling could be some of the overtones distorted by that bad system/room management. Those overtones came developed from the fundamental notes. Maybe your system can't even ( electronics. ) reproduce those frequencies or your speakers and that's why you can't live today my experiences. Your theory about big waves can’t be “build” in a relatively small room (as compared to open space) just can’t be true. As bass is more or less pressure waves, it would expanded in all directions. As I learned from Discovery Channel (or was that National Geographic?) that many of the hand-held antitank missiles cannot be fire within a house, as that would create over pressure which could hurt/kill the operator. So, you theory of not feeling the pressure because of the relatively small room is just false. Actually, bass or not, any sound wave, including the treble, would impact the turntable system and create feedback and, therefore, distortion. Only that the bass, which carries more energy, would have a bigger affect. You just can't fight the physics. You, me and every one need to have facts on hand not theories or just opinions on what we think about. Where are those facts?: FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES IN SIMILAR CONDITIONS. Well, I assume you have not fire a live cannon in your room, most likely not even a bass drum, so how do you know they could not “build” the pressure in a room? Where are those facts? |
Dear Raul, it is ok, you don't have to disclose the test result; the test was meant for your own benefit only. Actually, we all know the answer already! You could feel the pressure created by the Telarc 1812's cannon shots in your system before, but can't feel it now, and you concluded that now is better. I have no argument regarding your preference, but how do you know / prove your system is having lower distortion now, where are the facts? Maybe it is the other way around, you are liking the higher pleasant distortion (without pressure) in your current system / setup! |
Dear Rual, great, now you are saying you could feel it. I just don't know how you can feel lower distortion! I can understand if you say you can hear it, but feeling the distortion? How does it feel actually? No matter, now that you can feel it, then it gets back to the original issue. If you can feel it, then the air-borne vibration will also be transmitted to your turntable system, as there is no barrier, causing feedback and distortion. This is just physics! So much for the claim that your system has lower distortion than anyone else! |
In the other side, I never posted here or every where that my system has lower distortions than anyone else.Dear Raul, good, then we have no disagreement. What I can tell you is that my system/room has lot lot lower distortions than yours.I really have no problem with that, if it is true, as I have never posted that my system has low distortion. The problem that I can see is you can't prove it! I don't think you have any idea on the distortion level of your complete system/room. Have you compared the sound signal at your listening seat, with the signal from the phono/cd output by testing equipment? I bet not! Then you have to rely on your highly trained ears, but they couldn't even detect the distortion caused by the airborne feedback to your turntable system. I did it using Telarc 1812, Dafos and Firebird tracks not at 83db normal SPL but at 97dbs ( at seat position. ) with 109db on peaks and you know something: I can’t detect any vibration/resonance because that air borne. |
Hi Raul, basically you are just blowing your own horn and boosting about your own design, as always! Do you even have an idea what IEEE, as mentioned by Lewm, stands for? Btw, I made 3 USA trips showing my unit and learning on what other people listen to. In those times and maybe even today almost all the people that I meet there and that were my hostess ( great gentlemans for say the least. ) were not prepared for my SS Phonolinepreamp quality sound level performance. Almost all were using tube electronics but even this fact no one posted here or told me that my unit was or is a " trash " of design, including Lloyd Walker.< Maybe, unlike you, your hosts were just being polite, and not wanting to criticize your product in front of you. You were promoting / marketing your product during those trips, and if the hosts were so impressed with it, how come not too many of them ordered your product? How many units have you sold? I think the result just speaks for itself! I clearly remember at least one highly respected member on this forum openly stated he preferred another design (tube!!!) to your unit! You can always say you are ahead of others and your way is the right / best way, but then the result speaks it all! Dear @thekong : I can't detect it due to that glorious so low distortions in my today system/room. That also doesn’t make any sense at all! -The airborne audio feedback to your turntables is a fact (or are you denying physics?) - The airborne feedback would cause higher distortion to the sound than distortion from the electronics. - In your system, the room and the speakers would have higher distortion than the electronics. You don't know because you have never measured the signal at your listening position and compared it to the signal from the output of the phono / CD. - If your system is that “glorious so low distortions”, the airborne feedback distortion should just stick out like a sore thumb. How could you not detecting it? - You can’t detect the airborne feedback distortion because either i) your ears are not as sensitive as you think, or ii) your room / system has such a high intrinsic distortion that it masked the airborne feedback distortion! |
The majority of the people with high audio ignorance levels always try to hit me and that’s the only reason they post in threads where I’m. Problem with them is that in reality can’t hit me becfause they do not know audio arguments that could does it. Dear Raul, I think you have misunderstood, I never tried to “hit” you! The way I see it is that, in your “nearly crazy hatred of tubes”, as Lewm has rightly puts it, you lose sight on the bigger picture, can’t see the forest for the trees, so to speak. You have paid much attention to the electronics (maybe that is the subject you are good at), but fail to see the much bigger distortion generator of your system, your room and the airborne feedback (in the case of the turntable system). You have always boasted about the distortion figures of your phonolinepreamp, but you have avoided questions regarding the distortion level at your listening seat (i.e., measuring of audio signal at your listening seat, as compared to output of the phono / CD). Distortion level at the LISTENING SEAT, isn't that the whole point about a low distortion SYSTEM? I think you would be quite surprised, even horrified, if you actual see the result of such measurement. Distortion of the electronic is only a very small part of the total distortion of the system. While, in the name of high fidelity, we certainly want to minimize the distortion of the electronics, we also can't neglect the bigger issues out there. Your denial on the obvious shortcomings of your room / system, and your confident (maybe over confident) of your ears being better trained than most of others, just prevent you from making further improvements! I want to make it very clear here, I don't claim to have a superior knowledge / system / ears than you (or anyone else for that matter), but I tried to keep an open mind and not limit myself to only one design type. Maybe it is a surprise to you, but I actually owned SS electronics (Pass Xono, Vendetta etc.) and they are part of my system. So, I am not anti-SS by any means. BTW, I don't get frustrated on what you do with your system, it is your system after all, and you are the one listening to it day-in, day-out. As long as you are happy with it, everything is fine with me. |
While I have enjoyed a couple of solid state phono stages and tube linestages since then, I am open to considering all designs and never nod my head in agreement when you mention me as someone who "saw the light" regarding solid state superiority. I just sold my hybrid monoblocks and am replacing with a solid state power amp, but that doesn't mean I don't still appreciate virtues of all design types. I am a believer that there is "more than one way to skin a cat". Please don't use me as an example of the opposite. Hi Spencer, thank you for your post regarding what happened in your room! I agreed with your above statement wholeheartedly. There is no perfect component, and we shouldn't limit ourselves to one (any) design type! Like you, I also have both tubes and SS components, and they do have different advantages. |
thekong insist in that airborne high distortions in my system/room because he can't not onloy understand it but even imagine any system reproduction with out that ! ! !. Is not his culprit, just can't understand it yet ? ? ? and if insist in that subject he will not ever. Dear Raul, maybe I don't understand, but I am sure real expert like Mr J Carr must know. As I have quoted before, here is what he had to say on the subject (my emphasis by capitalization) : BTW, I wouldn’t recommend combining the phono preamp together with the power amp. THE SOUND OF THE TURNTABLE IS TOO MUCH AFFECTED BY VIBRATIONS TRANSMITTED THROUGH THE AIR AND GROUND. FOR TOP PERFORMANCE THE TURNTABLE SHOULD BE IN A SEPARATE ROOM/CLOSET ISOLATED FROM THE VIBRATIONS AND AIR PRESSURE FROM THE LOUDSPEAKERS. If you were to go with a combination phono/preamp/power amp together with the turntable in an isolated room, the speaker cables would likely need to be v-e-r-y long. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/best-phono-preamps On reply, you said the following: Dear @thekong : Look, I never said that air borne does not produce vibrations/distortions. In the other side, I already did it that test.< So, apparently you are claiming that while airborne vibration do affect others systems, your system is somehow immune to it! Problem is you can’t even come up with a theory on why that is so, let alone proving it! Maybe, your room / system is so out of this world that physic works differently over there! No one deserves to stay sticky where he is " now ". We have to move to enrich our day by day audio life. So very true! Look at where you are, drilling on the same old things all these years! You probably should stop living in a delusion! |
Btw, please read carefully this thread's information about the first Essential version: Dear Raul, are you trying to pull out names of well-respected members of this forum to support your views? If so, it is such an irony that you picked these 2 gentlemen to mention. Just look at what equipment they are using right now! It is especially interesting that you mentioned Mr Porter, to whom I must give thanks to for his invaluable advice on Aesthetix equipment. By looking at the date of the post (2006), he probably was using the Signature version of the Aesthetix at the time, as the updated version, which he got later, came out in around 2009. So, after auditioning your phonolinepreamp, he stayed with the “tube 30's alternative” (your words, not mine). He changed to the IO and Callisto Eclipse later, and then changed to the Allnic. It is interesting that the Allnic is using tubes of even older designs (if I am not mistaken) than the Aesthetix! Also, I have reread the whole thread above, and it seems to me that no one participated in that thread shared you view of tubes being inferior to SS. Even an owner of your phonolinepreamp was (and still is, I believe) using tube amp. Yes, some preferred your phonolinepreamp over some other models of tubed designs, but the opposite was also true. >I reserve my opinion about the Essential 3150 quality sound reproduction against not only the Aesthethix one but about any other phonolinepreamp. This not belongs to my targets and I'm not the right person to do it because the Essential 3150 is an important part in the José and my life and we could have some bias in favor of the Essential 3150.< I have also found your comment above in that thread. Looks like you have changed you mind regarding: “I reserve my opinion about the Essential 3150 quality sound reproduction against not only the Aesthethix one but about any other phonolinepreamp. This not belongs to my targets and I'M NOT THE RIGHT PERSON TO DO IT .......and we could have SOME BIAS in favor of the Essential 3150.“ (my emphasis by capitalization), since then! |
@thekong : Comes for more? Hi Raul, coming back? No, I was always here waiting for your reply on how your room / turntable system could defy physic and be immune to the airborne feedback (also remarked by Mr J Carr)! https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/our-home-system-how-good-it-is/post?postid=351309#351309 This is really enlightening, you were praising the systems you had visited, and some of them even had TUBE equipment!!! WOW! Yes, I know you can't live with those gentleman opinions. But you can't do nothing about because that's the quality levels of the Essential first version. Which gentleman’s opinions are you referring to? Most of the thread was talking about other audio issues rather than your phonolinepreamp. I can surely live with those gentlemen's opinions, but did any of them agree with you that tube must be inferior to SS? I believe more in people’s action than their words! If you bother to check the systems of the participants in that thread (those that is listed in Virtual Systems), you will see it is around 50/50 for all SS system vs systems with tubes. in a meeting there through a listening session with around 8 gentlemans ( one of them a Dagogo's reviewer. ) and making comparisons things were that no one but me took in count that the system owner all tube ( four chasis/boxes. ) phonoline item had a serious fault: its left channel was down around 2db-4db against the rigth channel. Just to be clear, I never mentioned those gentlemen's names until you did! This is very interesting, so now you are saying those gentlemen’s listening skill are questionable? If so, then why do you always quote members' praise to your phonolinepreamp, as if those are facts? Oh, I get it, anyone who praises your phonolinepreamp must have good listening skill; all those who prefer something else just don’t. Is that it? It's weird that all Essential owners I never meet them and never listened the Essential before bougth it. Oh, do you really mean "all Essential owners"? If so, then are you saying that all those who you had met and had listened to the Essential didn't buy it? That is weird, or is it?!!! |
