Fidelity Research FR-64 vs. FR-54

Dear @dover : Only to put some ligth on you about my "  use them for boat anchors " / ML monobloks:

in those old times ML designed and manufactured the the pure class A ML 20 Reference monobloks and in those times the word Reference was a serious meaning ( not like today ) and the 20's was a true Reference amps that outperformed any other design in those times. ML was really serious about and the 20's were the first M items with the Reference ML status.

Years latter they designed a the class AB 23 stereo amp that in some areas performed better than the original 20's so ML decided that their References must lives as References and modified it and born the 20.5's. 
Even for the 20's owners they offered the ML factory up-grade.

Well, time pass on and the ML 23 was up-dated to 23.5 status ( I owned this one and was really good. ) that again performed better than the 20.5's and they redisigned it and born the 20.6's and again offered the up-grade to their customers.

The 20.6's that I own are not a 20.5 up-graded but ML factory 20.6's new units and are one of the latest 6 pairs where ML instead to use teflon in the circuit boards they made it something special and those cirduit boards came with Arlon and performs at a little higher quality level that the ones with teflon.

In the other side and due that you can't give me any advise about how to measure my " anchor "'s speed I did it my self and I found out that performs:

0 to 60mph in only 5 nano-seconds. I hope this figure can compete with your tubes unit.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @dover : At least tell us why those amps are slow ones.

It's pity that a gentleman like you with your knowledge level come and post " something " with no explanation, with no adcvise to, with no real audio target other that spread your bad attitude.

Try to solve it and give your advise here.

R.

@dover : Only critics with no advise/help?  why?

R.

Dear @dover : Btw, please tell me what to look to be aware/detect if my amps are slow or not and specific LP tracks ( 5-6 ) where I can detect it. The amps I can have easily to compare are: FM Acoustics and Gryphon.

In the other side why do you think my amps are slow and slow compared against which specific amps?

Thank's in advance, appreciated.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Hi: """  I object to his claim that he has superior listening capability "AHEE" to everyone else on this forum """

I never said or posted that anywhere in any forum.

Slow amps?, well could be but the mods I made it helps a lot because both the audio signal goes directly to the input circuit board ( by-passing some original stages. ) and the power electrical signal goes directly too.

In the other side I had several amplifiers in my system that my dealer's friends want it to check or that I ask for: Audio Note, VTL, Gryphon, Krell, modern MLs, Pass, FM Acoustics, Coda, Parasound, Classe, Boulder and other ones.

The dealers and audio friends never made a comment on that specific regards and I never detected that my monobloks are " slow ". Even the original specs, reviews and other owners never reported about.

R.

@thekong : Comes for more?, no problem this is the rigth place to " enjoy " it:

first I name it both because ( I think ) were the only that heard the 3160 when I returned to their places but FC posted his opinion in the link I posted:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326188#3261... 

and this is one of his posts on my third USA trip ( second time with him. ) when the 3160 was there:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/our-home-system-how-good-it-is/post?postid=351309#351309

Yes, I know you can't live with that gentleman opinions. But you can't do nothing about because that's the quality levels of the Essential first version.

Now and first than all my apologies to the gentleman you are talking but I have to " enligth " you " life " and is you whom are mading a damage to him due to your ignorance:

in a meeting there through a listening session with around 8  gentlemans ( one of them a Dagogo's reviewer. ) and making comparisons things were that no one but me took in count that the system owner all tube ( four chasis/boxes. ) phonoline item had a serious fault: its left channel was down around 2db-4db against the rigth channel. 
This sole fact can tell you the level of those 8 pairs of golden ears touted by you.

Again sorry to post this again. There are many other issues that I can't disclose here or elsewhere, so please stop to damage other people because you don't know nothing about and I mean it.

Please do what you do the best: teach to other people as you did it with dover.


"""  shared you view of tubes being inferior to SS. Even an owner of your phonolinepreamp was (and still is, I believe) using tube amp. """

well, as you read it all those gentlemans including L.Walker were listening the Essential and you know what?:


"""  but the Walker table really can expose
any downstream troubles. The synergy between the Walker and the Essential
was overwhelming.
I must say that the sound in that system that day from the sweet spot is one
of the best sounding to my ears that I've heard in 25 years in this hobby.
Without a doubt, the most musical of about 5 times hearing various Kharmas.
Whether listening to classical, jazz or rock, everything sounded balanced
and natural. Dynamics, tonality, transparency, we heard it all. So many toes
were tapping, we looked like an audio-geek chorus line!
About 40-50 members of our audio club were at this demo, spread out over
about 6 hours, so perhaps some others who attended will chime in here with
their impressions. From the reactions I heard, I think many were
dumbfounded, as I was. """

yes, as a chorus line including me. Joe's owner was really enjoy it.  I will never forgot all those great people talking each to other on what each one of us like: MUSIC and enjoying it. Who can ask for more?   

Regards and enoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

It's weird that all Essential owners I never meet them and never listened the Essential before bougth it.

Dear @lewm : Yes, that's what I mean. Was that University whom help us to achieve matched pairs because the ones we choosed was single bipolar devices. Before the matching task personally we choosed one single manufactured bipolar over several other different manufactured bipolars, as I said in my mposts not all bipolars sounds exactly the same even if measured the same.

"""  why should I think that this makes the 3150 unbeatable? """ I never mentioned that.

What I said is that even that the matced pairs in the MAT02 and MAT03 are good ones was not the MATs what I was looking for our Essential design. As I told you, ML choosed both MATs at the end of the 80s in my monoblocks. I knew it very well and I want it something better that fortunatelly we found out.

Btw, what sincerely makes the 3160 unbeatable is the whole design, the very fine details we care on it and of course its quality level performance.

Sorry that you thougth that I'm insulting on purpose your system, it's not that way. 

Look, why any one could wants to integrate in his audio system that kind of quality level performance only for the next system link " destroyed/massacred " that quality levels.?. Even that, any one with my unit in those tube systems heard it the differences for the better even that almost all were biased/equalized and accustomed for many years to the quality levels of tubes and a well designed SS item is way different and we have to try not only to understand it but assimilate it step by step: we have to re-set all what we are accustom to and start to understand the new medium. Just as when we start to enjoy digital sources.

There are many things that surrounded the SS great experiences but rigth now I have to give and answer to the audio dover's trainer.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not distortions,
R.

Dear @dover : I think you are a masochistic man and return for more, my pleasure.

I never did a 13D review. That aluminum way resonant dedicated headshell is a mess and never used because I had my tonearm prototype that comes with an outstanding one. The picture where is mounted was used too on the sale listing and that tonearm ( Sony. ) was the one on hand ( out of work. ) to made that.

Thank's for your invitation to move at " your level ". No way my friend I was there around 20 years ago but I learned. Go figure, after so many time you just are " touching " the SS alternative but with very low knowledge from your part and maybe through your future audio life never can  really grow up.

Your frustrations levels are extremely high and every time that you come back for " more " you only are going deeper and deeper in that very dark hole where you " enjoy " your audio life. There is no single " point " where you can see the ligth in that hole.
Fine that's your privilege.

Come on dover you can't hit me. Stop trying through your posts, it's useless.

regards and enjoy the MUSUIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @dover :   """  you might want to look at eliminating the circuit boards...."""


it's obvious that you have no single idea of the very high level of our design where it's not posible to even think on that.

Did you know that almost any single electronic designs has high or/and low frequency oscilations? that the designers was not aware off. Did you took note of the Essential extremely wide frequency range?, I think only the Spéctral is down there. These and other critical design issues in our targets preclude simplistic kind of design with a few parts. Our design prevents almost everything a skilled designer can imagine, it's a bullet proof design. Not like your LOMC stage. Yes, even that our design is a non-State of the Art one it surpass yours by a wide margin, no doubt about. problem is that you can't understand this and that as always you are only trying to hit me but you know what: you just can't do it because my shield against it is your self ignorance levels that is different from my self ignorance one.

Btw, please read carefully this thread's information about the first Essential version:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150?highlight=essential%2B3...

of those gentlemans only A.Porter and F.Crowder listened the 3160 ( third version. No one but me the fourth that only I owns. ). I was at their places twice.

This one is part of the gentlemans that heard the 2nd version:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experience-with-raul-s-essential-3150/post?postid=326270#3262...

The best of all those was and is the whole experiences I had meeting extraordinary people/human beens, whom gave me their precious time and their family time too !!!  !!!!

Por that THANK YOU TO ALL OF YOU, again.


No one try to hit me as you.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Why know I that you once and again try to hit me with out success?, because you can't resist the temptation to post again  those you tube links that you made it expressely to do that years ago.

And you posted here in this thread even that many time ago, when you did it the first time, I explain ( trhough an Agon post. ) in precise way that that picture that shows the cartridge mounted in its dedicated headshell was only to use it in my ad for sale Agon listing. As a fact you took it from that ad.

I never mounted the 13D in my system with that headshell: never.  

You already knew this but your very high frustration levels with me provoque that non-mature attitude from your part. Pity.

Dear @lewm : You only see my posts but don't really " read " it:


"""  urious that you named the MAT02 and totally " weird " that you think I’m used in the Essential.

That matched bipolar pairs along the MAT03 were used in the late 80’s by ML and even that are good devices are not what we were looking in our near " perfect " Essential design and that’s why we took a very hard very hard task to choose individual discrete bipolars and not only that but we choosed/tested diferent manufacturers where even that almost all were made it the same did not sounds exactly the same. After the choice the hardest task was to have matched pairs that we can’t do it by our self, this task was responsability of a México University. No, not all similar bipolars sounds the same. Yes, it's more easy to handkle and to design a circuit with MAT kind of devices than single discrete bipolars, remember that single discrete bipolars has not the very high gain in the MATs and that was an additional issue to solve in the Essential design. """

"""  we don’t use it any single chips in the circuit not even the discrete ones but the B&B buffer """


R.

Dear @dover : Hysteresis distortion?, well that kind of distortion has different sources and of different kind ( existe magnetic hysteresis, example. ) and can detected as: spurious components/non-linearities in the signal frequency bands, especially on amplifiers. You don’t have to worried about in our design.

Well our four layer circuit boards could be not espcial if I don’t know what you mean for special. Our circuit boards were made it in Silicon Valley and choosed after we tested 4 different build materials in the circuit boards. This is an example only on how the Essential was builded and one of the many reasons the Essential performs with that so high excellence levels.

You name it the Vendetta and Blowtorch ( I don’t know why. ), well no one is a good reference for me. Our non-State of the ART Essential outperforms both easily. Btw, our design handle LOMC cartridges with an output level as low as 0.01mv. The Essential use only bipolars in gain stages and not FET/MOSFETS as the Blowtorch/Vendetta and uses no single internal wire but everithing input to output is hand soldered to the circuit boards.

Btw too, we don’t use it any single chips in the circuit not even the discrete ones but the B&B buffer. Btw, I was in one of the B&B facilities that’s nothing less than " impressive " and that was in Tucson, AZ.

As a comercial product the Essential is irrelevant to the forum but way releveant on what we can have and a target to fulfill.
I don’t know but thinking on people as M.Lavigne could made that I take again the flag of my latest Essential again and produce it. No, it’s not for you. You can stay with your engineering friends that are years a head the legitimate State of the Art: good for you.

Anyway, thak’s to your contribution.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not Distortions,
R.

Good to read that finally you are using SS technology with LOMC cartridges. A very good link to start and I hope that step by step and carefully you can follow doing in the time in the other system links.
Btw, that gentleman Andreoli is the same whom took the 103 inexpensive motor and created the Blue Magic cartridges in a price range from 3.5K to 7.5K dollars?

One full mistake from my part:

" poor design ", I'm not refereing to it self design on those tube electronics but to the poor technology.

R.

@lewm : """  tell me about some of the revolutionary new transistors that are so radically different from what came before... """

whwn we started the Essential design we did it starting from below CERO. We had to learn every single subject from parts different sources to facilities to build boards and where machine the Essential boxes and everything. No one gave us any advises or any supoprt about and as a fact we did not ask for. Below CERO because we are not in USA, my country is way different.

So if you want to know more about bipolar transistors that's your personal job and if not for other thing but because you have to learn and that's the way to learn. In the other side if I tell you it will be useless for you because you can't handle/work with those kind of devices. Have to learn before you even think to buy it.

R.

Dear @lewm : Curious that you named the MAT02 and totally " weird " that you think I’m used in the Essential.

That matched bipolar pairs along the MAT03 were used in the late 80’s by ML and even that are good devices are not what we were looking in our near " perfect " Essential design and that’s why we took a very hard very hard task to choose individual discrete bipolars and not only that but we choosed/tested diferent manufacturers where even that almost all were made it the same did not sounds exactly the same. After the choice the hardest task was to have matched pairs that we can’t do it by our self, this task was responsability of a México University. No, not all similar bipolars sounds the same. Yes, it's more easy to handkle and to design a circuit with MAT kind of devices than single discrete bipolars, remember that single discrete bipolars has not the very high gain in the MATs and that was an additional issue to solve in the Essential design.

The ML circuit/stage where goes the MAT02 and 03 are a perfect circuit where those MATs are surrounded by a clever proved complementary devices.

Come back to the Essential I remember that in the external power supply we found out that simple circuit resistors ( not power resistors. ) changes makes that the Essential performs a little different. Extremely dificult to be aware about and we found out this by " accident " and after that we tested resistors everywhere in the power supply.

In those old times and before B&B was bougth by TI before any commercial source for naked resistors by Vishay we already were using it as many other today top parts.

No, my Essential can’t mate with the poor electronic designs you own. How can do it? is just impossible.

Even that’s out of production that design is years a head any other in today audio world. Maybe you don’t understand my past posts in this thread but our Essential was the very first Phonolinepreamp with the Neumann pole designed in the rigth way, the firstb one in the audio world: got this? understand this? and that is only one of " the first.. " and more important: performs just fantastic!

If I remember I offered to you and refuse to buy it. Big mistake.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @lewm : Do you know how after several years arrived where today I'm?:

some day ( and after that I continue with the same questions. ) I thougths:

what if all what the AHEE teached me and that I learned and living with is wrong?  where all those " wrong " audio subjects are? how to change and test these changes'?  and I took seriously all those and other questions and took ( I'm still doing. ) several actions. I'm not married in any way with audio but with MUSIC and nothing less.

Please do it a favor and ask your self something simple:

what if all those Raul's " craps "  are true?

I still make me questions as: what if I'm wrong in " this " or " that " ?

This is the attitude with we can really arrives " there ".

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

@lewm :  """  people who read this crap and take it seriously, and I don't want anyone going off with a bad impression of tubes per se. """

crap?, only for those gentlemans that don't want to understand the tube " crap " subject in 2017.

Here in México people say: " that the worst deaf man is the one that does not wants to hear "  and " that the worst blind man is the one that does not wants to see "  . Whom are you?. I want to think neither because one thing is that you like ( you have no alternative because you don't want to change: yet. ) to defend what you have and the other is that you have high ignorance level that I know for sure you don't.


""  using the very same bipolar transistor that you use, or used to use, in your phonolinepreamp,  """

wrong, I never used the MAT02/03 in the Essential. These are very old Analog Devices items and very good ones. As a fact those devices comes in my ML monoblocks ( this amplifier design I think is unbeatble even today. It's a " electronic lesson for any one. ).

No, we use " discrete " single matched bipolars that we choosed in between more than 10 different bipolars in the market. 

""  if you want to lend me a phonolinepreamp "", 10 years ago maybe I accepted not today. 

Not today not just because I " don't want it " but because first you have to take actions to move on where you are. If your attitude to do nothing but only critics with out real foundations living sticky in that " crap " you never grow-up and certainly I can't borrow my unit.

Things are that I can see that almost none wants to do nothing to enjoy MUSIC and it does not matters what you think about.
Yes, I know that you think that you are improving your analog experience but in reality you are only walking with back-steps and side-steps but improving: NOTHING.

@lewm : wake-up. You are in the road of a Formula 1 race " improving " your cicle/Honda Civic to compete against the true real F1 cars ! ! ! 

Why is so dificult to you and other people to understand it. You are trying to compete in that F1 race with a car of the Fangio times against the today top car technology.

It's RIDICULOUS for say the least. The name of the game in audio is: MUSIC and that'0s why exist all those net forums: to learn about as we learn here in Agon.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @lewm :  """ his nearly crazy hatred of tubes. """

No, I don't loose my time on something like " hatred " that in any circumstances ( in any subject or scenarion. ) affect my health. Human been nervous's system equilibrum is the name of a healthy life.

In the other side I already experienced the tube " massacre " to the MUSIC.

@lewm I know that tubes can makes " sond " but a simple piece of paper can do either and either my target and what I'm talking for years is not about " sound " but the rare experience of LIVE MUSIC through a home audio system.

That's the difference on what you and me are talking about. Certainly you need ( is a must to do it for any one. ) to experience it.

To that can/could happens is not a process of " one week to the next ". No, it's a long process because you have to learn step by step what to do and how arrive " there ". This demanding and learning ( with a lot of fun and frustations in between. ) beautiful process took me years not months where step by step I started to discovery the real and true NEW MUSIC/AUDIO WORLD that only whom are " there " can really understand.

thekong insist in that airborne high distortions in my system/room because he can't not onloy understand it but even imagine any system reproduction with out that ! ! !.  Is not his culprit, just can't understand it yet ? ? ? and if insist in that subject he will not ever.

@lewm , some of my friends here " refuse " to come to my place to listen  MUSIC ( in reality they come. ) because they told me that after they finished their last up-grade ( any kind. ) in their system and when they thougth that are " there " come and listen and they gone from my place with additional frustations that are their new challenge for the near future and I'm not talking of gentlemans that are audio rookies, some have tubes and other SS based systems.

@lewm life and everything in universe is changin every " second " and I think we have to change just for " fun ". Rewards are unimaginable and with NO-RETURN.

No one deserves to stay sticky where he is " now ". We have to move to enrich our day by day audio life.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @lewm : I re-read your post of advantages/disadvantages and that’s exactly what I learned and what learned all the biased tube lovers.

But that was information created in the middle of the past century and today we are in other century in 2017. Don’y you think that through 67+ years things improved for SS? even today exist bipolars designed specific for audio something that was not on those very old days. In the other side SS designers enhance their knowledge and skills levels.

Almost nothing of your post against SS is true today.

Btw, noise level in a unit is a kind of distortion and no one single tube design can approach the very low noise floor in SS today units.
@lewm why your unit is an hybrid one?, easy answer: to achieve clean high gain with low noise that tubes can’t even. Noise levels are part of the dynamic range as is the frequency response widder or not range

You are only one of the few gentlemans that even that sometimes are angry gainst me never try to hit me and that’s why we can have hot discussions learning inside it both of us.

The majority of the people with high audio ignorance levels always try to hit me and that’s the only reason they post in threads where I’m. Problem with them is that in reality can’t hit me becfause they do not know audio arguments that could does it.
Typical example of that is @thekong , this gentleman post after post is trying that and he did not achieved and his frustation levels goes higher and higher then come back " for more ". Be that way if he is happy with.

Now, your post there today are only myths in reference to SS electronics. Myths as are many of your touted tubes. Example: tubes development of second harmonics ia the name of the game against odd ones developed by SS.

But reality is way different regarding audiophiles top preferences and exist very well documented blind tests in listening sessions with two similar amps where one develop 2nd. harmonics and the other the odd third one and you know what: all golden ears prefered the sound of the amp developing third harmonics. But this is not the only example on harmonics there are many and the next is other very good example of those audio myths:

if any one of us ask to other audiophile which the best true analog source experience 100% will answer: Open Reel tape recorders.
Well, this analog best source develps only odd harmonics: 3nd and fifth, we can’t measure 2nd harmonic down there.

As I posted here and every where I owned several all tube audio system and heard top top systems handled by the best tube designs ( you can name it any and you can be sure I already experienced. ) and no single one can honor MUSIC. Yes, it can " sound " but I’m not looking for sound as @thekong or others: I’m looking for the " perfect " system that can be nearest to the live MUSIC as no other one in Earth. SS is today the only path to achieve it.

Again: now, I posted several times in this and other forums than in any audio system the owner of it can be sure that the system quality level performance is true " top notch " when the digital experience outperforms the analog experience in his sytem.
Always existed and exist the myth that CD were " irritant " especially in the high frequencies and a limited source on frequency range and many other " myths " but the culprit in reality is not of the CD by it self technology but from those old DACs and some bad recordings but several of those " bad " recordings " we thought were really bad and when your system is " there " then that bad CD will performs just amazing and surpassing its LP counterpart. There is no doubt about, you only have to to have that kind of quality system level with a today CD player ( no, you don’t need HR or other digital technology. ). Digital surpassed several years ago what LP can’t even and never will It does not matters what MF say about that btw when he still support the LP experiences are only saying that his audio system is not " there " yet.

Even in this forum today exist people that are digifhobic and are in this way because his very high ignorance levels.

Here is an interesting post, please read on what this very special gentleman posted about digital experience:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/interesting-project-started-by-michael-fremer/post?postid=126...

and we are not talking of a more of the same: audio system:

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615


I will continue because there are to much to learn from every one here and ever where.

@lewm there are four versions of my Essential phonolinepreamp: the very first 3150, a revision/up date to the 3150, the third is a whole revision and is the 3160 and the fourth version is my unit where I made it additional modifications. Yes, always looking for " perfection " nothing less. Same with my tonearm design.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @sbank : No, I'm not using you. Far away from that. As you I have very good memory ( is an atribute God gave me. ) and I remember those great days with you people.

Things were as this: "  poorly constructed Omega Mikro power cable was stepped on and damaged resulting in a DC surge ", yes I made it by accident when I was trying to connect my unit that at that moment was the only unit switch on in your system and things happen when I was swtching on my unit. No other system item was on. What happened is that all the external and internal fuses in my unit blow and we can't listen the system with my unit. After this you and me gone to Radio Shack and bougth new fuses ( the original ones were expensive hi-fi tune fuses. ). Comeback to your house and my unit works flawless on that " accident " and was precisely in this moment when the OTL were swtching on and we listening for a whle with out no problem. The problem was latter on ( the other gentlemans already gone after the listen session. As a fact you and me were in a hurry because your friends were invited to that listening session and my unit was down! ) and I remember that you and me were trying to identify which of the tubes in the amplifier connected at the left speaker was the problem and we did it smelling it.

In the other side,I remember at your place that when Joe ( whom knew very well your system quality performance levels. ) was there and we were listening your system and playing with my unit he approach me close to my left ear and told me: " Raul you are a magician ". Certainly I'm not other thing than a music lover.

Anyway, thank's for your contribution and again sorry to disturb you that was not my intentions. Never is with no one every where.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @lewm : It's weird that you did not mention nothing about tube or SS handling of inherent design noise levels. I want to think that you forgot to mention it and if not then was on purpose.

Can you share your thougths about, it's important how you see that main audio subject. If tubes are better: good and if SS are the ones: good.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @lewm  : """ You are entitled to your listening preferences.... """

totally wrong, I'm not. I'm entitled to MUSIC, live MUSIC. My preferences has nothig to do on how live MUSIC sounds/flows. This is my main target.

""" but you are not entitled to create your own set of facts ... """

I don't have to do it but in reality I always did and do it. Problem for you and every one is that refuse to mimic in each one system my experiences.

You are a very good example of that: for years through the subwoofer thread I started and through emails to you I told you that your system needs ( this is a main necessity in evry audio system. Period. ) the integrattion of 2 self powered subs and you gave me several reasons why not. Your answers were very similar of the ones by my close friend Guillermo ( here in México. ) whom owns the big Soundlabs.  Today he is using a pair of subs in his systems and when he did it he told me: you had reason.

As you and many other audiophiles in this forum if the advise comes ( for first time. ) directly by Raul then refuse to do it and months or years latter many of them do it when that " advise " comes from other source but Raul.
Obviously that I don't care about. Losting the appreciated audio/music time is each one privilege.

With you happened the same with your second system when followed what Beveridge did or do on that subwoofer subject but they are not subs experts, are far away from there. So, what you did it about ( it does not matters what you can think. ) is just wrong. I already told you in the subs thread.

Now, on your audio/MUSIC " facts ":

Vacuum tubes – Advantages :

all those false/myth " facts " you learned through the real AHEE and I know that because I learned the same " facts " and that's why I used for some years an all tube audio system from Marantz through AR, CJ, AN ( Ongaku, between others. ) and many other items and I listened to almost all kind of tube designs including the ones you own. This is a real FACT.

Suddenly ( well not really suddenly. ) I started to learn and changed step by step to SS electronics till my system was all SS but something was not exactly as I wanted and that's why I started to think and take actions " out of the box " " out of what, as you, learned in that AHEE.

That's why I participated first hand in our Phonolinepreamp that I own and other lucky audiophiles.

This " unique " overall design experiences were and are my best audio/MUSIC lessons every where in the world and through those ( many years. ) true facts experiences I learned that all those advantages you name it are  in reality false and I give you some examples:

- negative feedback: this issue is not true in SS today good item designs. In ours exist no-negative feedback and works in pure class A, fully regulated input to output and fully diferential two. Our design in reality has 12 independent preamps channels.
Even today is absolutely unbeatable by any today units that are in the market.

I remember the first gentleman that ask me if we can manufacture for him our very first sample and we said yes, please gave us 6 months for you can have it in your system. History is that he had to waited 2 full years to receive it. Even he made the payment in advance through that time.
I think you already seen this chart that speaks by it self on what I posted here:


https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPJLuDhIxhHGsjv2ZABr3TIpxMewVor1Pz33vhLoiISsURJmmnxUQB9cuwNnpog...


that is chart of my Phonolinepreamp I have. Till today unbeatable and this is a fact.

That unit has a very wide frequency range from 0.01hz to 1.5Mhz making easy not to use global negative feedback. Btw, negative feedback is not wrong or bad per se all it depends where and how use it and the knowledge and skill levels of the designers.


- clipping: again, all depend on the quality of design. Today normally decent SS designs has no problem about. Has high headroom and high overload margines.

- wider dynamic range: realloy? how is that? because your hybrid unit can't not only even but be near of my unit in that regards and in any other ! ! !  and this is a fact.

- circuit design tends to be simpler: agree and that's why any one can design a tube unit and that's why exist the famous DIYS that does not exist with top SS designs. Yes is a lot more complex especially when the design is using bipolars devices as my unit or my monoblocks. Not all designers like to work with and prefer the easiest Fet/MOsfets.

- operation in class A and AB: well almost all top today SS electronics ( bipolars or not. ) are in pure class A and non-feedback.


Transistor disadvantages:


- 

• Tendency toward higher distortion than equivalent tubes: Really?

Is useless to continue analizing each one advantages/disadvantages you posted because almost all are false on SS today designs and the tube advantages you name it just does not exist: maybe 40-50 years ago but not today and this is a fact.

I remember many reliability times with different tube electronics and I will name it 2-3:

in one of my USA trips I was hosted by my dear friend @sbanks ( Spencer. ) for 2-3 days whom in those times owned exactly the tube electronics you own and the very first day that we ( some other Spencer's friends and now mine as Joe. ) were listened his system his touted by you OTLs ( one of them. ) just " blow-out ". Well goes down because a failure in two tubes and in front of me he called the designer and well you know what happens when that happens.

in other of my USA trips and in a over 300K price audio system ( speakers alone are in the 160K price range. ) happens the same with a tube top very top unit that when I saw the shipping double box to make the shipping ( I helped my friend to do it that same day. ) I knew at ounce where the money was because tubes and tube dsign can't justify more than 5K and this is incredible price for a tube unit. No, I don't care what tube designers can think about or the reasons they charge so much for their designs.

here in México and hearing a pair of Wilson speakers a top C&J top unit blow-out as the ones in Spencer's place.


I never experienced that so dramatic events with well designed SS electronics and certainly never with my units. When I experienced a reliability event in reality was not but a mistake from my part doing changes in the unit.

Btw, I made 3 USA trips showing my unit and learning on what other people listen to. In those times and maybe even today almost all the people that I meet there and that were my hostess ( great gentlemans for say the least. ) were not prepared for my SS Phonolinepreamp quality sound level performance. Almost all were using tube electronics but even this fact no one posted here or told me that my unit was or is a " trash " of design, including Lloyd Walker.

and we have to consider this: all of them listen to my unit in their system almost every time my fligth arrived to their places with out time to anything but listen it. Even in Denver with the snowing day in that hard condition my unit performed really fine.

@lewm , I'm some years ahead of you and some other audiophiles ( inclusive professional reviewers or equipment designers. ) and not because I'm so smart/intelligent or something like that but only because I finished the audio kinder-garden before some of you and that is my advantage between other critical audio subjects.

That's why @thekong insist that I prove what he just can't understand or the why people like @syntax always is joking/laughin of me: this gentleman as many other of his type are still in first kinder-garden grade and seems to me that he will die that way as some of his friends.

Things are the same in school: not all human beens finish the school grades at the same time.

@lewm , you have to hurry about because you has the intelligence to do it before many of the ones that posted in this thread. Every one with the rigth attitude and taking actions can not only even where I'm but can surpass me easily if they know what to do and do it starting today instead to posting critics or why I'm wrong.

There are many other interesting things to say but that will be for some other day. 


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @lewm : """  not the "AHEE", your fictional bugaboo. . ................  I don't want to go back and forth with you any longer.  """

Your post confirm not only that the AHEE is not a " bugaboo " but that you are a clear and precise audiophile that today, and even that you are an intelligent/wise gentleman, still are stiky firm on what you learned through that corrupted AHEE.

I'm not, I'm out of that " box " from many years now and tha's why my posts ( for years . ) speaks " different " ( and provoke/cause hot discussions. ) on what you and several other audiophiles are accustom to and speaks different because more than the 70% that I learned through that real and corrupted AHEE was and is TOTALLY WRONG and it does not matters what you or any one else think about.

Audio is a business for every one but audiophiles and are we the ones that give our honest money to that corrupted AHEE. Period.

In the other side, I have not time at this moment to give you and answer to your post, I will do latter on and if you don't want to come back to me then why you posted: ? ? ? ? 

Anyway, I will answer, is interesting to do it.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @thekong : I can't detect it due to that glorious so low distortions in my today system/room.

Yes, I know you can detect it in your system in the same way I detected it in the past, not today ( fortunatelly. ).

You need to learn several audio subjects and do several drastic changes in your system/room to approach or even or surpass what I'm living today that you can be sure will improve in the near future.

Talk to me when you be " there ". Futile that you continue doing through this thread. You have nothing to help enrich all other people knowledge levels. Stop all those boring posts.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @thekong : All human beens can hear and feel distortions. Distortions comes from everywhere in our day life ( not only audio. ). In audio music comes along distortions of every kind and as music the distortions comes along its harmonics/overtones.

Do you think that when we feel a low bass SPL what we feel is only " music "?, no my friend always comes with distortions generated in the system/room. Problem is that you are unaware of almost any kind of distortions at any frequency range and you can't detect it because the poor resolution of your system and because you don't know what to look for ! ! !

In the other side, I never posted here or every where that my system has lower distortions than anyone else. You did it.

What I can tell you is that my system/room has lot lot lower distortions than yours.

It's useless to continue talking when exist a to high differences on audio ignorance levels between two persons as you and me. It's useless that you try to find out real arguments to prove I'm wrong when you can't be sure: I'M NOT. Period.

Re-read carefully this that are not my words but other gentleman ones:

"""  """ This makes me think some people do like pleasant distortion  . Remember ignorance is bliss until you have heard the difference .  """

Btw, it's not your culprit that very low audio knowledge level you have because as all of us you learned and still do through that corrupted AHEE. You are a clear example of the damage AHEE did it and does.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @thekong : """ Actually, we all know the answer already! """

I don't know other people but I'm totally sure you don't because you don't know or understand what I'm talking about. You can't understand what you are not experienced yet.
No, it was useless for me because I already know the answer and only confirm it.

Where said I I don't feel the generated room SPL by the Telarc 1812?. What I said is that I feel it but with a lot lower distortions levels than ever and that you can't even imagine.

@thekong , again how can you argue/contend nothing at all with that system full of tubes that means THE WORST DISTORTIONS WE CAN HAVE/ACHIEVE !!!   Forgeret.

You think you know almost everything but in the subjects of my posts, and with all respect, you know nothing: CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @thekong : First and as I told you I do not disclose about the test I did t and that you suggested till you make something in your overall system to make some tests of all of what I posted in this thread.

If you are feeling through your system listen sessions that " something " is hitting your chest that it's not low bass but mid-bass or high distortions somewhere.

Even if the bass wave is builded no one can hear it trhough ears but only hear through the whole body.

Many years ago some music/distortions waves hit my chest: not any more and I have to tell you that nothing rattle in my room even at over 100 db SPL ( I'm talking of low bass. ) and in the past ( not so long time. ) I feel those waves through my legs and with some rattle somewhere in the room. Today there is no rattle and the bass waves hit me mainly at my middle of part of my back and sometimes at the same heigth at my body sides. As I posted here or somewhere my room " disappeared ".

Yes, SPL is always a real problem in any room. With out it we can't hear and fell nothing. Things are that even very high SPLs are handled by system/room with an unexpected aplomb and the main reason is that that system/room works with distortions at minimum.

A  gentleman posted in other totally different thread this:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/my-personal-experience-with-direct-drive-versus-belt-drive/po... 

in the last two senteces we can read:


"""  This makes me think some people do like pleasant distortion  . Remember ignorance is bliss until you have heard the difference .  """

that's part of each one step in the audio/music learning ladder. Difference is that that specific step ( on what I posted. ) I passed before you and other gentlemans. You can't understand what you do not experienced ever and for you there is no reasonable explanation and that's why you think I'm wrong and other that I'm really crazy or whatever.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @chakster : Why is crazy?  when in the day by day life in a dialogue between two gentlemans and when are talking on any topic/subject always between that " talking " they touch other alternative issues and at the end several times finished " talking " on a very different topic. That's the way the human beens are.

The audio forums, its real utility, is precesily that: that in a thread we talk on many relationed subjects that for many of us are part of each one audio learning curve.
This is the way I learned and still I do it. This is the way to confirm if I'm rigth or wrong. This the way I can discern my self about any single audio subject and that way is the one that permits me to test and start evaluations that I never imagine I had to do it.

Crazy?, not really. I think is a strict audiophile's necessity to grow-up.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @thekong : Look, I never said that air borne does not produce vibrations/distortions. In the other side, I already did it that test.

Now, it's precisely that good or bad system's bass management and the way is handle for who determines how those bass waves arrives to your seat position.

The bass waves of fundamental notes in the 1812 cannon shots  ( 8hz-16 hz. ) through a home system can't impact your chest because are not " builded, yet. . Are to big waves ( a little different in an open enviroment as how those shots were recorded. I have not this live experience, so I can't tell you about. ). These big waves normally came from the floor up and depending of that system/room handling is how you will feel it. If you can feel it in your chest then what you are feeling could be some of the overtones distorted by that bad system/room management. Those overtones came developed from the fundamental notes. Maybe your system can't even ( electronics. ) reproduce those frequencies or your speakers and that's why you can't live today my experiences.

I don't want to go deeper in this important regards till you can mimic ( more or less. ) my system/room experiences I shared here.

Opinions has no real value with out first hand experiences on what other people shares.
You, me and every one need to have facts on hand not theories or just opinions on what we think about. Where are those facts?: FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES IN SIMILAR CONDITIONS.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @lewm : """  you have never heard my Sound Lab speakers or any Sound Lab speakers that have been dramatically altered as have mine... """

Sorry but that is not the main subject through my posts here but only a part of. I think you are missing the whole and main subject.

Anyway, you already know ( because I posted over the forum more than 3-4 times. ) that the only ESL speakers I could live with could be the Soundlabs. As you know a close friend of mine owns the top of the line here in México city an he received as 3 months ago  his originals speakers that he send it for an up-date and he made it some tweacks on it but I'm not sure exactly what he did it and is not this the main subject.
I explain all those for you be aware that I know very well Soundlabs as my friends's modified ones. No, not exactly the same you own but it's not so important as you think.

There are several critical issues that I touched in my posts in this thread and the more important relationed with your main system are:

- first that the analog and/or digital signal pass through several tubes when one tube destroy the audio signal integrity in higher way than a bipolar transitor several ones/tubes is something catastrofic for say the least.

- that main system have not an adequated system bass management and with out it any single system is totally incomplete. Home audio MUSIC belongs two both frequency extremes and very special on that accurate " bass management ".

OTL designs can't help becaus etubes are there. All your ESL modifications can't honor MUSIC till those tubes disappears from the audio signal and till you have that accurate/adequate system bass management.

There are other issues but is useless to continue speaking about till things changes in those both critical subjects that are indisputable/incontrovertible.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @thekong :  """  Makes no sense to me that you ask for some tests in my audio system when I have to prove you or any one else nothing at all.  """

I told you ( and every one. ) those because what I'm doing in this thread was and is only to share my first hand experiences, not to convince any one of something.

I repeat, only sharing my experiences as always did and do.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @thekong :  """  I hope you ........ wouldn't mind doing the following simple test and let us know what happens.............................................................
......................................................................
I doubt that you could have complete silence (or faint noise from the phono) at the headphone. I am pretty sure you could hear faint music through it (although it could sound funny as it has gone through the RIAA stage). """


Makes no sense to me that you ask for some tests in my audio system when I have to prove you or any one else nothing at all. I already told you here and evrywhere in other threads why I can have a quality sound reproduction through my home audio system that you can't have it and because you can't have it you just can't imagine or understand what I'm talking about.

""" I suppose if you play the Telarc 1812 at 109db peak, you probably could feel the pressure on your chest. """

that stament you made it confirm you understand it because in my today enviroment I don't feel the pressure in my chest ! ! !

Do it a big favor and maybe the best in your audio life: 

- avoid any single tube in the audio signal. Yes you have to change to SS.
- install a dedicated fully regulated  power electrical line with surge protection, 80-90 db noise reduction and RFI/EMI supresors.
- that all your audio system eletrical power cords be connected/soldered with pure all silver cable directly to the electronics boards with no single connector in between.
- by-pass all fuses in your audio system.
- install two well designed active subwoofers in true stereo fashion in your system. With the main speakers working as a satellite ones and with out external active high pass crossover.
- reduce at minimum the room treatment.
- that your phono stage comes with the Neumann pole at the RIAA eq.


WShen you did it then run the tests you are suggesting that I do and after that come back to me and the forum to share your experiences.

I never ask somebody something that I did not experienced my self in my system and never talk about theories but facts, first hands experiences: always.

Yes, as many of us ( including me. ) you have to learn many things.

Test your self is the " best " way to grow-up to any audiophile.

It's very easy to give opinions that if not experienced are useless for you, me and everyone. You can't understand of what kind of distortions I'm talking about because you never been aware/detect it, you just don't know exist and have plenty of them in your today set-up.

In the other side, I have three finished of our self tonearmdesign and of course that I can't ask you have it because this you can't do it: yet ! ! ! 


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @lewm : Not a monster that's for sure. The ML amps is a very special amp design with no trouble on handle almost anything with real aplomb.No, I don't have that nigthtmare impedance curve you name it, ADS makes no that kind of " mistakes ".

Yes, the best resistor/cap/inductor or cable is NO resistor/cap/inductor or cable but sometimes as it happens in the 99% of the speakers designs are need it. I think that the passive crossover in my ADS is optimized and does the less harm to the audio signal you, me or any one else could achieve. So, I'm confident on this main issue.

In the other side and when you are talking of " linearity " we have to think that today transistors designed expressely for audio are not the same as in the " old " times and other than that we have to talk here not only on linearity but about frequency bandwindth, signal transfer velocities, intrinsic devices distortions and the like.You are a wise man, so don't try to justify what in 2017 has no single justification other that you already pay for it and have to live with. Remember that like me you are a " by product " of that touted AHEE and this is your problem not mine.

Btw, I'm not the only one that sees the light but a person that sees the light in way better way that some as you can't do it yet.

In other thread you posted that have some bass problems with your main system and you want to solve it adding subs and I know that move/action it helps but as you stated somewhere tubes are not for bass overall management.

I know very well your Sl and heard it with tubes and ss electronics and differences are like nigth and day. Yes, I know you like tubes and you said I'm with ss alternative but the reality is that I like MUSIC not electronics.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

@thekong : DYNAMIC EFFECTIVE MASS   /   effective inertial mass of the arm / cart combination.

The cartridge is loaded with that dynamic effective inertial mass where as higher the tonearm effective mass as more " problems " happens at stylus tip micro levels that induce distortions higher that with lower effective inertial mass.

If high mass tonearms been the " ideal " then " infinite efective inertial mass " will be the name of the game.

Anyway, the point is there.

Rgerads and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @lewm : Not really, in a high mass tonearms the cartridge changes of direction can’t do it in the same way than a low/medium mass. Effective mass is the inertia that goes inside and very dificult to " stop " that high inerteia against low inertia.

That’s what happen at cartridge stylus tip level and are induced higher distortions. Ridicolous or not, like it or not.

@lewm , What is totally ridiculous an anacronism is that in 2017 you still are sticked with that tube 30's alternative. THIS IS WAY RIDICULOUS   ! ! ! !  

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not distortions,
R.

Dear @thekong @lewm and friends: Next is what I posted somewhere in this thread:

"""" Now and this is something that almost no one take care when talking of the FR 66/64 and is that that touted ( @lewm ) high mass is the other serious problem of those arms other than the main non-damped design.

In those old years tonearm designers and TTs ones were in favor of high mass to damps its products. On tonearms was SAEC whom publicited " papers " explaining the tonearm advantages of high mass designs as their models but were totally wrong because they don’t took in count how it really works the cartridge/tonearm combination along the spining LPs.

Exist no single LP that comes with precise/perfect concentric hole for the TT spindle to avoid the normal " excursions " during playback. Those " excursions " ( lateral movements. ) along the other characteristics for the cartridge very hard work ridding the LP grooves means that as higher the effective tonearm mass as higher problems to " stop " the inside/forward to the spindle natural path of the tonearm because of those movements.
Lower mass tonearm has lot lower problems to stop that natural inside inertia to follow in better way the LP grooves.

That dynamic mass/high inertia goes against a precise and clear sound and per se produces distortions ...........""""



Here you can read what explain in better way the very high problems of high mass tonearms like the FR/SAEC ones. What you read is an explanation how it works dynamic mass/inertia with cartridges I took the information from SS site and the explanation comes from PL owner/designer. ) that is similar what happens ( one way or the other ) with high mass tonearms designs. No it’s not exactly but you can have the whole idea of what I posted not only here but years ago in this same forum:

"""

On the left is a relatively SMALL Moving coil armature, the right is our LARGEST tiny permeable flux modulator. You can see by the obvious size differences that the moving-coil system has far greater mass, which means much higher inertia. That is a bad thing.

A large amount of mass in the moving system is greatly detrimental to the performance of phono cartridges. One obvious reason is the simple aspect of just getting the mass moving; moving this mass and then reversing its direction quickly as described above. The more mass, the more stored energy, and the longer it takes to get it moving (and the more difficult it is to reverse its direction).

One of the most important problems that arises from too much mass (or inertial problems) is what is the path of this "stored" energy? Where does it go??

The simple matter is that once you store energy in the moving system the stored energy must go somewhere to be dissipated or gotten rid of. Some of this energy gets damped, but a very large amount of this energy reflects back down the cantilever and into the stylus – which tries to put this energy into the record. This is extremely bad.

Since cartridges are designed to receive energy from a record, and not put energy into a record, large problems occur when this issue emerges. When there is an attempt to try to put energy back into the record the result is that the stylus jumps horribly within the record groove, and does not stay in intimate contact with the groove walls. Its like a badly designed sports car on a bumpy road. The resulting signal that is created is not entirely representative of what is recorded in the groove. Becasue it behaves like a tire on a bumpy road it spends lots of time in the air, and not much time in contact with the road surface. The stylus’ attempt to put energy into the record results in what is technically called a “mechanical impedance mismatch” – lots of energy being driven into a small mass (the stylus), which cannot “move” the massive record groove. The result is “groove jitter” and poor statistical-contact with the groove walls. If you cant stay in contact, you cant hear what is truly on the record! After all, if you don’t read all the words, you wont get the story ! Our job is to get you the entire story, not bits and pieces of it ............so how do we make this happen?

If you lower the generator mass, two important things happen: Less effort is required to move it, and less energy is stored by inertia, which results is far less energy reflecting back down the cantilever and into the stylus. This means less jittering of the stylus in the groove, because it has less energy that it is trying to put into the record. """"

That's what happens too in all high mass TT platters designs: storaged energy. For year too, I spoke and posted that that very high dynamic mass on TT platters induce distortions/resonances/micro-vibrations because every " body " in movement has it. We can't go against Physic Laws.

If it's true that on BD designs some kind of mass is need it ( higher than in DD designs. ) the high mass design path makes more harm than improve any single high mass platter design.

All today followers of that kind of wrong strategy that started the Japanese TT manufacturers are not only wrong but in worst condition that those very old Japanese TT designs because today BD TT platters comes with even 10 times more higher dynamic mass than the old designs. ! ! ! ! 

Yes, we have to stay aways of high mass tonearms and high mass TT platters design. Goes against MUSIC.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not distortions,

R.

Dear @dover / @thekong : As always you only looking for an " error " in what I posted here and elsewhere. I can’t remember you any single post in reference to mines where you really enriched/enhanced the ignorance level of audiophiles that reads the threads/posts. Always looking for an opportunity to " attack ". Fortunatelly with no success and this only increment your frustations.

Anyway, here my answer to your post:

as a very good student you repeat what the AHEE teached to all of us but that is not real rule because each " stage/enviroment " is diferent. Let me explain mine:

my subwoofers are not close to walls or in the corners, as a fact one of it is located in a " free " space and the other has the only wall damped, I still use, behind it. The main speakers that works 87 hz to over 25khz has no wall behind it but windows where in the center of the window ( floor to ceiling ) I have like 1m. wide damping. One of the main speakers is almost in a " freee " space. My in purpose room damping I’m using are ( mainly ) diffusors by RPG.

The furniture in the room are mainly wood/wool/cotton fabrics that are very good difussors and with some damping too. The rugs fabrics is all wool.

I have to say that I don’t live in my " island " of audio/music only environment/stage.
My system was and is enjoyed by several audiophiles and I listened " hundreds " of home audio systems here in México and USA. Lisneted systems from 25K-30K to over 350K prices. I did and still do that listening other system " lessons " to have true references against my system other than live MUSIC events.

So, it’s not only me who think my system distortions are really really low but other gentlemans including musicians that can attest it.

As you know and through the time I developed my own test/evaluation in deep proccess where through the years I received a deep training that permits me to identify several kind of distortions you just can’t imagine exist in your system. That bullet proof evaluation proccess is repeatable anywhere and I can identify advantages and disadvantages in any home system in no more than 1 hour.

Other that what I posted here about part of my system you can read too my latests posts in the subwoofer thread. I can’t give you all the information of my system here, it’s full of very fine details.

Due to your post I took some part of my evaluation proccess that normally I don’t use it very often becfause I know very well my system and the results/success of my up-grades/up-dates/tweacks but I did it these past two days because your post:

fist is to compare through my Stax headphoes the quality sound level against my near-field seat position. Nothing here confirm or even approach nothing of what you posted: there are no higher distortions, phase problems, colorations, time errors, distorted soundstage or fundamentals/harmonics: CERO CERO.

second, I use ( first ) a stetoscopyc not only at the TT/tonearm under evaluation/playing but at the other TTs that were in static way and through the racks too. I did it using Telarc 1812, Dafos and Firebird tracks not at 83db normal SPL but at 97dbs ( at seat position. ) with 109db on peaks and you know something: I can’t detect any vibration/resonance because that air borne.

Finally my water glasses test, with different glass sizes and different water quantities on each one. Where I put those glasses all over the system items that are inbetween speakers/subwoofers and you know something: NO SINGLE WATER MOVEMENTS at that very high SPLs.


On my posts here and in the Do you think you need a subwoofer? latest ones I posted: SYSTEM/ROOM NOISE FLOOR GOES LOWER AND LOWER WHERE THE ROOM ALMOST DISAPPEARED.
That is an experience where you can’t even dream with when you are living on and with those terrible 30’s.

When you listen my system you just can’t be aware of those subwoofers thank’s to system near " perfect " system/room integration that achieved a fenomenal system/room BASS MANAGEMENT as you can’t even dream with. You just can’t know what I’m talking about but my friends here can.
The level of resolution of my today system/room is second to none of all the systems I listened through my life.

No, it’s not a " fantasy " as you say trying to diminish my posts. The blend of whole circumstances/environment in my system/room made it that performs with that kind of quality level .

Btw, I did all my latest system/room evaluation with both alternatives: digital and analog one and I can say you and every one that digital is way superior to analog and I posted this not in the last month but for more than two years now.Btw, I’m not against the analog alternative, I like it too but can’t even the digital one.

Only whom his ignorance level is so high can today think that analog is superior to today digital

NO WAY MY FRIEND.

I can enjoy both alternatives and I will do in the future.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not distortions,
R.

Dear @lewm : Maybe you can understand why your system as almost all audiophile’s systems are so far away to reproduce what’s in the recording please read this, it’s only what is part of my audio system that obviously is not nearest to " perfection " ( nothing is there. ) but through the time " each day " comes close to reproduce what is in the analog/digital recordings adding the lower degradation my ignorance levels permit it. All these permit me to be aware of multiple kind of souce’s audio signal degradations that I have perfectly identified ( several of them I " discovery " by accident and not because I was looking for. I found out because my mistakes during everywhere system up-dates. ):

- my TTs ( BD and DD ) are nothing realy special, makes what is supposed to do it.
What’s special is the propietary design/build TT mat and clamp.

- A very special propietary design/build tonearm with the lowest self added signal degradations of any kind. Wired with silver, All my system is wired with silver, including the electrical power cables.

- After the tonearm and along the speakers/room the must important audio link in the system chain is the PhonoLinePreamp.
Here our self design, Essential 3160 use bipolar transistors in two gain stages for MC phono stage and FETs for MM phono stage.

In reality this phonolinepreamp have five preamps instead of only one: it has a dual mono MC phono stage, it has a dual mono MM phono stage and a line level stage preamp. All these stages are totally independent from each other.

This phonolinepreamp design is a discrete Non-feedback, direct coupled, current drive, pure class A , true balanced ( differential ) input to output, dual mono design, fully regulated input to output and with dual mono external power supply.

Inside parts: teflon capacitors, " naked " resistors,matched active devices , no internal wires ( every part is soldered directly to the four layers circuit boards. ), etc....., only the best neutral non-sound parts ( no step-up transformers, no head amps, etc.. ) and in the critical stages with tolerances at 0.005%.

A developed proprietary technique guarantee an accurate RIAA de-emphasis. This technique assures an initial RIAA accuracy of +/- 0.015 dB from 20 Hz to 20 kHz ( Both channels ), resulting in a neutral phono stage that reproduces exactly what the cartridge generates that are in the recording.
My unit measures so " perfect " that in the measured RIAA chart showing both channels we just can’t see no single frequency deviation from 10hz to 50khz and we can’t distinguish the line from left to rigth channel responses !!!!!!!!
I posted in this forum and if I remember you posted in that thread something about.

To round off the preamplifier’s RIAA capabilities, its has a switchable 3.18 us turnover point to compensate for the cutting head preemphasis roll-off during the recording. Other specs:

Frequency range to: 0.01 Hz to 1,5 MHz. ( both channels. )

Signal to noise ratio: better than 82 dbA in MC stage refered to 0.5mv. and according the standard/norm/rule: EIA/CEA-490-A , the same spec for MM but reffered to 5.0mv and 110db at 1 V ( unity gain ) in line stage. ( Both channels .)

Slew rate: 300 V/mseg.

Common mode rej.: 130db. ( Both channels. )

Distortion: 0.0002% ( Both channels. )

Input overload: MC: 15 mVrms @ 1 kHz (High-gain), 30 mVrms @ 1 kHz (Low-gain)

MM: 500 mVrms @ 1 kHz.

Total weight: 55 lbs.

When I write ( both channels ) this means that both channels measures exactly the same ! ! !


- Mark Levinson Reference 20.6 monobloks:

It is a great industrial design, military specs, bullet proof, great and unique bipolar amplifier design.

It is a fully regulated input to output design that use Arlon circuit boards and have " only " 100 watts of pure class A at 8 ohms, that double that figure at 4,2,1 and 0.5 ohm with an output impedance of 0.012 ohms!

Each monoblokc amplifier power supply is supported for two " big " toroidal transformers ( 600VA each ).

I modified the original Levinson circuitry with better passive parts , silver internal rewiring and not only for the signal but for the electrical power one, power supply lines are free of fuses because I by-passed all of them, by-pass some circuit stages where the signal passed and the must important was the invert stage for balanced operation.

Things were that the 20.6 was designed as a single ended amplifier not a dual diferential true balanced design, they only adds a fully invert stage for the customer can play with in balance mode if he wants it but the real " magic " in this design is in single end way that’s how I’m using it by-passing totally the very complicated ( several parts. ) invert stages, with this the " purity and integrity " of the audiio signal suffer way lower degradations/distortions.

It is at the 20.6 input where through only one best Teflon cap and best naked resistor it makes the frequency croosover for the main speakers in the bi-amp system. Both Teflon caps are mated at 0.1% in between and the resistors at 0.001% as tolerances in between.

Amplifiers bias is always mantained at same value in between the 20.6s as all the other main amplifiers specs.

My monobloks can compete with any today amplifier you can name it and can surpass some of them.

- Main system speakers. My ADS L2030 speakers were not designed as a home speaker but as a Professional Monitor.

What that means?, this is what ADS says: " reproduce the most challenging program sources with the utmost ACCURACY and authority. No other transducer ( in production. ) can offer the combination of ultra-wide frequency and dynamic range, freedom from SONIC COLORATION, extremely LOW DISTORTION, high image accuracy and superb dynamic linearity.

The speakers acoustic suspension design comes with very powerful magnets for the silk dome tweters and mid-ranges where woofers made it with pulp/fabric material with a magnetic flux of: 635,000, 1,830,000 and 1,400,000 nanoWebers respectively.

These L 2030 was designed by Mike Kelly ( Aerial speakers ) and till today it match all my priorities.

It is " heavy " tweaked to do that:

internally is hard wired with silver wire.

I take out the crossover ( now is external ) and change all the parts: resistors ( Duelum. ), all silver ribbon air core inductors, teflon caps, i dissapeared all the speaker’s protection circuits, apply internal damping to put at minimum its resonances, I integrate a back side speaker tweeter same efficiency and silk dome too that has its dedicated silver wired independent crossover at 7.5khz. and the speakers silver’s cables goes hard soldered directly to the crossover parts .
In reality are three separate/stand alone crossovers: one for the tweeter, one for the midrange and the other for the woofer, all these hard-wired directly to the amps ( no connectors. ) by 3 independent silver’s cables that goes from the amplifier outputs to each one external passive crossover.

I change the internal damping glass fiber by 10kg ( each one ) of long hair 100% virgin wool and change the fabric cloth of the grille for a " transparent one ".

Both speakers have at the rear-center the Antiresonant Vibration System by MICROSCAN model TM-8 that works from 20hz to 1.5Khz.

These are some manufacturer specs:

- Frecuency response: 22-20K +.- 3 db ; 18-28K +.- 5db.

-Efficiency: 95 db SPL.

- Power rating: 300 watts nominal; 1,200 peak.

Weight: 95kg.


- system room treatment almost dissapeared because I don’t need it any more because room interactions almost dissapeared too thanks to that " glorious " near " perfect " bass system’s management.



That’s only part of the whys I’m listening and enjoying MUSIC and not DISTORTIONS and why you can’t be aware of that terrible FR’s degradations. Got it?

Does any one experience for the very first time a true enjoying of MUSIC at home instead of distortions?, then first step is stay away of any single tube, try to remember that we are all living in 2017 ! ! not in the 30’s.

As I said the culprit are not the audiophiles but that old corrupted AHEE.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @lewm : Of course I read and understand what you posted but let me tell you something:

first that as Soundlabs ES speakers I ike Beveridge too but this does not means are " perfect " and not only because the ES technology but because the electronics need it to drive it. In the other side you said that mostly the signal pass trhough SS electronics and this means: that’s is not full SS but exist at least one tube where signal pass trhough and not all SS electronics designs has the same quality level.

Now, you as @thekong and several audiophiles leaves in the 30´s using in 2017 that " pre-historyc " tube technology that not only on bass range but all over the audio/music frequency range makes a way higher degradation to any signal than today dedicated SS elctronic devices.
That you and other audiophiles are accustomed to that pre-historyc degraded sound means only that: that all of you are accustomed to a way wrong sound reproduction thank’s to the corrupted AHEE.
Tubes exist because is a market business where the market is not looking for real sound/music quality but colored reproduction and you have no culprit about but your corrupted " teachers ".
Tube manufacturers can’t refuse to make business only because the tube electronics can’t works in better way: $$$ is $$$ and no one cares from where.
Tube technology is one of the main reasons why the high-end just does not grow-up. We all need a NEW AHEE to start a totally new MUSIC enjoying.

In the other side and even if you don’t use any single tube in the system the only way to have an accurate low system/room low distorion quality level is where you have a near " perfect " system/room bass management.

How can you know that bass management quality level?, only if you already experienced in other system/room but yours. You can’t compare nothing if you have not a reference a true reference to compare it.

I read somewuere that you have passive external subs driven by Threshold amp, I think a transmision line design type. Well, I can tell you that it can achive that near " perfect " bass managemnt quality level.

I know that Mr. Beveridge loves transmision line design type, so what?. Any sub desgn type must ve an active design where the SS amplifier can copes exactly the subs driver specific characteristics and your subs are out of this subs main target.

We have to remember two things that are: audio home/system reproduction MUSIC  belongs not to the mid-range but to the bass range and the other issue is that MUSIC is HARMONICS develop by the fundamentals.

Because of all that an many other issues I know that you can aware of the kind of distortions I’m and as I said: is not your culprit. You just can’t do it.

Gentlemans, everything in the human beeen and in the Universe is a constant " times " of changes, almost every second, and we audiophiles decided not to change for the better: to discover the audio/MUSIC world that EXIST and that today AHEE deny to us.

No, you main system can’t help you neither.

I know that no one likes that other people " touchs " each one audio system and when I did it and doing is only trying to help.

Audiophiles are accustom to lkes only what we want to hear when some one talks about one of our system’s link and dislike anything against it. But I don’t post or participate to say what peple wnats to hear but what are my experiences and the why’s about and this self characteristic in my attitude is what made it that I was banned from several net forums elsewhere but here and VE.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not Distortions,
R.

Dear @lewm : """  I'm not a customer for anything to damp my FR64S, as I have no reason to believe it's a problem in my system. """

You are rigth, not a problem in your system because you have a system ( with all respect. ) where you just can't be aware of those problems: that system has non-adequated resolution or to high on everykind distortions to be aware of it.
The other situation with you ( with all respect. ) is that you do not know what to look for because you can't detect those kind of tonearm distortions because you still are not trained to do it and that's all.

I can be wrong in that FR subject but it does not matters what you think or say: J.Carr is rigth he knows a lot of audio things that you even can't imagine and because of his ignorance level knows what he was and is talking about when you just have no idea and your answers confirm it.

You are not open mind when @dcbingaman gave you the advise to try that after market damping.
Your attitude always is the same, you never say: " ok, I will try ". What do you have to lose if test it?  Tests of everykind is part of each one of us audio learning to really grow up ! ! ! ! ! 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC,
R.

Dear @dcbingaman : I still own the great DP-75 in a 50kg beautiful green marble plynth that on specs is over the DP-80 that I owned.

The best from Denon was and is the DP-100 even over the SP 10 MK3.

I own too The Mechanic that is very good tonearm, was the only regular tonearm where the cantilever-less Ikeda REX 9 performed good.

In the other side the Fx tonearm is way different to the 64S. Stainless steel is the worst metal to use in a non-damped tonearm against the aluminum from the Fx.

Now and this is something that almost no one take care when talking of the FR 66/64 and is that that touted ( @lewm ) high mass is the other serious problem of those arms other than the main non-damped design.

In those old years tonearm designers and TTs ones were in favor of high mass to damps its products. On tonearms was SAEC whom publicited " papers " explaining the tonearm high mass designs as their models but were totally wrong because they don't took in count how it really works the cartridge/tonearm combination along the spining LPs.

Exist no single LP that comes with precise/perfect concentric hole for the TT spindle to avoid the normal " excursions " during playback. Those " excursions " ( lateral movements. ) along the other characteristics for the cartridge very hard work ridding the LP grooves  means that  as higher the effective tonearm mass as higher p´roblems to " stop " the inside/forward to the spindle natural path of the tonearm becausrtia of those movements. 
Lower mass tonearm has lot lower problems to stop that natura inside inertia to follow in better way the LP grooves.

That dynamic mass goes against a precise and clear sound and per se produces distortions and additional to this always is that undamped tonearm design. SAEC has the same problem and in this issue the 66 is worst than the 64 and no the FR bearings are not something especial but more of the same.

@thekong 66/64 S are non-damped and the VTF mechanism always is ringing and degrading the cartridge signal integrity.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @lewm / @dcbingaman : J.C does not like FR/SAEC or Ikeda tonearms mainly because its overall resonances that does not helps to the MUSIC real enjoyment.

I owned and own the FR and the Ikeda 407  that's the long one similar to the 66. This one is a " little/tiny " less bad than the FRs but that's all.

As a cartridge designer ( mainly. ) JC must have and try almost any vintage or today tonearms and TTs and even he was co-designer of a SS dual mono Phono StageHe needs to test  his top cartridge models with different analog rig alternatives, this is part of his cartridge voicing.

Here is what JC posted literally in this forum about:


""" 

Otherwise the "fx" or "fc" variants are far more friendly to use. By the time Ikeda did the IT-345 and IT-407, he had gained a much better awareness of resonance control as compared to his FR days.
 

And as Raoul suggested, I use the Warren Gehl armwrap, which is far more effective than heatshrink. It dampens the resonances of the armtube by compressing it radially, and works on a similar principle to how you play harmonics on a bass or guitar.

The armwrap's radial compression of the armtube makes the 64S and 66S operate a bit more like Ikeda's later arm designs like the IT-245 and IT-407, although these added interference damping by force-fitting multiple concentric tubes of various materials together.

FWIW, from the resonance-control point of view, Ikeda's personal favorite among his own designs is the IT-345, which I believe has a three-way concentric armtube structure. The person who's been building these arms for the past 20-odd years is of the same opinion.   """"

The ones that likes Ikeda tonearms are the Ikeda builders/designers! ! ! 

It can't be the other way around, they put on sale those tonearms but  it's not JC whom likes those disastrous tonearms.

No, I don't have any more the 407. People like me have the rigth to learn.

Btw, @dcbingaman , your Sota combination was a Sota classic on those times along the ET tonearm too. The arm is a good arm that Fletcher imroved over the original Swiss one design.

The cartridge/tonearm intrinsicall relationship for a " perfect sound is complex for say the least where are in play to many parameters at the same time that when you improve/up-grade some of one this could affect in positive ways to other parameters involved but could affect in negative ways with other relatioship parameters. 

At the end what I'm looking here is to achieve the lower distortions ( any kind. ) I can and a non-damped tonearm is out of that target and I know it because I still have one FR and I have it only to test ( if need it. ) how the cartridge signal must not be reproduced and that's all.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC,

R.

Dear @lewm : Nothing wrong with what you like. It’s a fact that we like some kind of distortions, I like too but through the time I learned very slowly to detect this or that kind of distortions and certainly not all.

When I tested and beeen sure that in reality " that " " good " sound is no more than excess of distortion I started try to find out how put at minimum or dissapears it to never come back to listen it even if in the past I was in love with.


When I learn/learned that something is " wrong "/not good I just left it and never turn my face back.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @lewm : "  which is very low in distortion and includes mostly solid state components in the chain from cartridge to speakers. "

good and adding FR distortions makes you " like it ", go figure ! ! ! because that's what you posted:

"  But... I like it.

There are many cases in this hobby where components go against this or that widely held belief and nevertheless work well, """

In the other side:


"""  Not that I agree in any way with your other diatribes, against vacuum tubes.  """

I have no single diatribe against tubes, only facts that no one including you can change ! ! ! 

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @thekong : """  Always talking about distortion... """

the home system name of trhe game is exactly that: distotion levels on each home audio system and if you can't understand it after those several times I posted then I think something is wrong in your overall audio understanding.

"""  but can you even prove the distortion level of your system is lower than any of our by any measure  """

@thekong I don't know if you still own that " terrible " Aesthetix I/O all tube phono stage that I know very good.

Well, that unit manufacturer gives you no single distotions measures in a 20K + dollar unit and what they gives are " terrible " numbers for say the least:

output impedance: 1kohms where high frequencies are degraded/losted in his cable travel to the amplifier.

RIAA eq. deviation:  swing of 0.5dbs from 20hz to 20kz.

noise level: 70 db.

Other than that, the cartridge signal must pass inside the phono stage for 6 different circuit stages where only because these so many stages the critical and sensitive cartridge signal suffer a huge degradation.

You love that unit and its quality performance levels. Do you know that unit everykind of distortion levels?, sure you do not and are asking me that I give you measures of my home system distortion levels!!!!!!!

Do you understand at least the complexity of what you are asking?

Certaninly not and that's why you ask.

We all need to learn about the name of the game: distortions and how to be aware of those distortions at each link in the home audio system chain.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @lewm :   """  How can you learn anything from anyone else, when your mind is so closed to all other opinion?  """

I don't know why you can think that in the subject of FR undamped pivot tonearm design your opinion and other one opinios are rigth and I'm wrong.

Why can'not it be the other way around?

Makes no sense to me and let you explain my take here:

- my MUSIC/audio main target is to listen/hear what's in the recording. If this is not your main target then we have nothing to talk on that and any other home audio subject.

- all of us are distortion lovers. To what kind of distortions?, the ones on each one home audio system.

- what kind of parameters take I in count to evaluate any home audio systems and its differences in between?: mainly the distortion levels, every kind of internal/external home audio system distortion.

- almost every " decent " audiophile  use some way or the other different kind of home audio system damping depending where is used that damping.

- we can name some of those damping system tools: 

   room treatment,  TT footers,  TT platforms,  damped racks,  TT mats,  TT clamps, daped headshells, damped tonearms by design like: VPI or Triplanar and several others,  cartridge suspension dampers, cartridge body design shape to " kill "internal resonances/distortions, damping on tonearm boards, damping on speakers, damping on speaker crossover, damping on electronic chasis/box, damping on tubes it self, damping footers on any kind of system electronic item/link, damping on cables construction,   damping,     damping,   damping,    damping,......... damping everywhere in a home audio system: this is the rule and it's not for " free ".

- that everywhere damping has a sole/unique reason: TO HEAR WHAT IS IN THE RECORDING and not to all generated home audio system distortions.

The main target in that very hard work of system damping is to " kill " all kind of distortions or at least mantain it at " extremely " low/minumum levels.


AND, AGAIN AND AGAIN, YOU AND ALL THE OTHER LOVERS ( including the " 11 " one. ) OF FR NON DAMPED TONEARMS  SUDDENLY " DISCOVERY THAT THE FR DESIGN REALLY DAMPS THE DISTORTIONS THAT TRAVEL  AND SOME THAT ARE GENERATED BY THE NON DAMPED DESIGN ! ! ! ! 

and    YES AND: NO ONE BUT ME AND J.CARR DETECTED THOSE DISTORTION LEVELS????


As I said: makes no sense to me. Makes sense to you?

If yes then that's why I said that we are distortion lovers. I'm too but with way lower distortion levels than you. At least I'm aware of it.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @lewm : "   I have never used the DA307 .. """

that makes a diference in  your opinion vs mine because I listened the FR 64 and 66 for years in my system even I still own the 64 that I do not use but in good working condition.

As I posted I owned the 307 and other than its very good design and its damping mechanism you can read there that was along the Lustre GST 801 the pioneers of magnetic antiskating mechanism.

You can be sure that Denon knew what the did t not only with its tonearms but with  their items catalogue.

Yes, you as several FR owners like FR tonearms tonearms because its distortion levels but for me the FR ones the only real tonearm characteristic that it has is that can hold a cartridge but for me is only a shiny piece of metal, nothing more.

Regrads and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @bdunne: First than all the Denon DA-307 is not the weak link in your system as you stated. I owned and know very well this and other Denon products including its LP recordings.

Please ask you weak link for whom or why?

You no sense expression " goofy " damping says that you need to understand first than all why exist a tonearm other than hold the cartridge.

No single undamped pivoted tonearm in the world can makes justice to any single cartridge and you are asking for the worst undamped tonearms ever made/designed: FR.

Here you can read why a tonearm needs be a damped design as your " goofy " DA-307:

file:///C:/Users/Rub%C3%A9n/Downloads/ve_denon_da-307_flyer.pdf 


The Luxman has the rigth tonearm for your current cartridge and future ones. There are not many tonearms than could performs at the high quality levels as the 307 can.

If I was you I will stay with the Denon tonearm and invest the money at least on LPs.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.