You are confirming my belief, it's pulling out 2.5g.
Well, it sounds darn good 1.5g down/2.5g out, but I don't have any experience with playing Mono LP with Mono Cartridges*; This Cartridge; This Arm.
To add weight is easy. Bottom of weight is threaded. Optional weights were probably available back when ..
various length screws would add variations of extra weight. Any screw/ combo can be weighed easily enough.. I read weight has m6 threads, needs to be verified.
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The purpose is to play MONO records, for now I am sticking with 1.5g down.
a. remove weight, let stylus 'ride' the inner wall with 1.5g
b. leave weight, let stylus 'ride' outer wall +1g
c. make 1.5g weight as you suggest (I'll try that first)
d. grind weight down to 1.5g. (can add to that if needed one way or another)
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* No experience with Mono Cartridge, Except to instantly know using dedicated Mono Cartridge is clearly better than playing Mono LP with Stereo Cartridge as I used to do, in Stereo Mode or most often via Fisher or McIntosh Mono mode switches. I was happily surprised how much better on some, not all old LPs. Thanks to the thread here.
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thanks.
Sometimes I'm glad I ain't too smart. I get the distance from pivot varies the force.
I had SME 3009: dangling weight on line, 'inside' toward lp. hung on various notches on rod behind the pivot, progressive distances behind the pivot increase the force gradually.
I see arms with the rod on the outside, with the notched rod forward of the pivot. same thing reversed, got it.
Fidelity Research FR-54 has an outside weight, the difference is, there is only one location to suspend the line, on a wire outside the arm, and, the line connects to only one place, a bimp on the bottom of the arm, about 1/2" in front of the center of the pivot.
No way to lighten, only threads in the bottom of the dangling weight to add sub weights.
If it weighs 2.5g, and it is connected 1/2" forward of the pivot, what amount of outward force do you estimate is produces?
What makes most sense to me is that it was designed in the days of heavy tracking weights, 2.5g start, method to add more if needed.
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lewm,
thanks.
I go to Vinylengine frequently. Google will translate, I have that manual translated, it does not address Anti-Skate at all.
One photo showed two holes in the side of the pivot, where the wire goes into the pivot. I thought, ok, two choices. My arm only has one hole.
I have a hard time believing 2.5g weight is giving only 1.5g outside force, especially as it attaches 1/2" forward of the pivot.
Tomorrow, I am going to put on a Stereo Headshell, 1.5g down. Listen to 3 guitarists, (always my final AS test), and see if it seems to emphasize outer side of groove, effect balance.
After learning something, back to Mono cartridge 1.5g, leave weight alone, mess with it, or make a lighter one.
I like the fishing lead sinker idea, lots of sinkers/line downstairs, but ...... |
I believe you, but, ... my test will give me a clue. |
my anti-skate test equipment 1. use cds/digital/reel to reel, to verify system balance, prior to evaluating/refining your LP anti-skate by ear. 2. test records if you can stand it 3. extremely enjoyable music https://www.amazon.com/Friday-Night-Francisco-MCLAUGHLIN-LUCIA/dp/B076FCFZ4N/ref=tmm_vnl_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= side 2, tracks 2 and 3 (the only tracks all 3 guitarists play. the guitars are different types, different string types, it helps to be familiar, tells you a lot about your system, and, vary your anti-skate, the imaging of the 3 guitars can be good, great, perfect. 4. extremely easy to hear/balance l/r center https://smile.amazon.com/1984-love-big-brother-LP/dp/B000091OVI/ref=tmm_vnl_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= Annie Lennox is not wandering a stage, she is dead center. Dave Stewart plays with left to right, at matching levels, at long repeated sequences. Not your most enjoyable Eurythmics album, but very easy to use. You can lift the needle, adjust, drop the needle, no need to try and go back to some starting place, long repeated sequences make it easy. 5. More Enjoyable Eurythmics album, also dead center Annie, many matching sound effects https://smile.amazon.com/Sweet-Dreams-Are-Made-This/dp/B077KGZ4L6/ref=sr_1_1?crid=228M9D9A4L9HG&keywords=sweet+dreams+vinyl&qid=1579921282&s=music&sprefix=sweet+dre%2Cpopular%2C134&sr=1-1 6. LOADED with Sounds by Quincy Jones https://smile.amazon.com/Thriller-Michael-Jackson/dp/B01B2M9H76/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1YU7XDWNQGMFZ&keywords=thriller+michael+jackson+vinyl&qid=1579921396&s=music&sprefix=thriller%2Cpopular%2C141&sr=1-1 7. Live Albums, Applause can sometimes be revealing, but, like memorex, is it real? |
no disrespect, but my slide rule is in the drawer, for life. there’s no point in discussing science or physics, "What IS, IS" prior 1.5g down/2.5g out ’sounds darn good’ was about mono cartridge, mono lp, as I said, both new to me, on an arm unfamiliar to me, with no anti-skate adjustments no matter what, this is about getting stylus floating equally: to prevent uneven groove wear, uneven stylus wear, especially long time effect of uneven force on cantilever. I’m not sure how much it will affect the mono sound. ................................. tested using this, got answers.. https://www.amazon.com/Friday-Night-Francisco-MCLAUGHLIN-LUCIA/dp/B076FCFZ4N/ref=tmm_vnl_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=side 2, tracks 2 and 3 (the only tracks all 3 guitarists play. ........................ 1. I listened with Stereo Cartridge on Stereo Arm with adjustable anti-skate, alignment previously refined, confirmed stylus clean, got the music freshly in my brain. Magnificent Imaging! I am extremely familiar with this music. Stereo Arm: Acos Lustre GST-801, I LOVE this arm. You can adjust both VTA and Anti-Skate while playing. Shure V15VxMR body with new Jico Stylus, SAS on Boron cantilever. **** Brush Up for Tests **** to get and play accurate 1.5g down 2. I moved the stereo headshell into FR-54 rear arm. Place anti-skate weight on top of flat tonearm lift to eliminate it’s force. Balance, tracking force 1.5g Release dangling 2.5g weight. 3. Play, left WEAK, left and center guitars both moved right, you might not even realize it was 3 guitars. The 2.5g weight is DEFINITELY and OBVIOUSLY pulling more than 1.5g. (somewhere between 1.5g and 2.5g?) 4. Listen with no anti-skate. Put weight on top of flat tonearm lift. Play, right WEAK, right and center guitarists moved left. I think a bit worse than the reverse when using the weight, 5. Conclusion: 1.5g in/no weight is worse than 1.5g down/2.5g weight dangling (which, at max would be +1g out???). 6. Solution: I have many lead sinkers, I need some very fine line, I will make a couple alternate lighter weights. |
lewm,
thanks for all your input on this and other threads.
I've been joking about science, but hands on solved it.
my left channel on my tube amp just went silent, wish me luck. |
Success, first trial, tied a nut on fish line,
1.36g home made anti-skate weight (factory weight is 2.5g)
Shure V15VxMR down 1.52g (the weight my Grado ME+ Mono Cartridge wants 1.5g)
Instant, no strained listening needed, 3 guitarist as finely imaged as I am used to.
Who knows what changes my slightly thicker fish line makes?
I will get some finer line, make a permanent dangling 1.35 weight. Perhaps I will make an intermediate 1.75 g weight while I have my tools out.
1.35; 1.75; 2.5 collection! Maybe I should get rich selling them.
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It is my NON-SCIENTIFIC opinion that the weight, attached 1/2" forward of the center of the pivot, exerts a force slightly more than it’s own weight,
which is why I decided to start with 1.35g trial.
WHAT IS, IS
Color Me Happy!
Color my Grado’s Stylus Cantilever Still Happy years from now!
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I set Shure to track it's recommended 1.25g on the main stereo arm.
I think. The Jico SAS/Boron replacement stylus has a brush, (not damped like Shure).
Shure says when used, it's brush pushes up .5g, so set 1.75 for resultant 1.25g.
Jico, using it's brush, I am using 1.6g. Just an instinctive guess for a near 1.25 result.
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stringreen5,510 posts01-24-2020 10:12pm Fuggetaboutit ..................... If you meant, just enjoy the music without worrying about it, which in many instances is a valid idea. not so with LP cartridge, you gotta get it right, especially anti-skate. .......................................... level tt. protractor 4 measurements/alignment (pivot to spindle; overhang; two null points. fairly easy to get right). azimuth is very important, I use a mirror, and check/re-check, am I sure many times, lock that headshell very tight, final check in case tightening moved it. do it again. Vertical Tracking Angle, a bit tedious, especially if height of arm lift gets involved, but, achievable. tracking force (anti-skate to zero) checked with a digital scale, easy. .......................................... finally anti-skate. Listening, balance, imaging, everything opening up as intended, all comes from proper anti-skate. Wear and Tear is related to getting anti-skate right, get the stylus to float in the groove while playing, ready to be whipsawed and sea-sawed this way and that. The forces are tremendous. The stylus hitting dust in a groove:: A Train, traveling 60 knots/70 mph, bashing into cattle, except the cattle are in a chute. reduces groove wear; reduces uneven stylus wear; allows cantilever shaft to be/stay straight/balanced/moving it’s magnet or coil properly within the cartridge body allows diamond to get deeper in the groove than if it is riding one side a bit. .............................. Get this right, then FUGGETABOUTIT, enjoy the music. oh yeah, double check tracking/anti-skate in a few months. |
I never heard gross distortion. I was playing MONO. I just couldn't understand no AS adjustment on FR-45 arm.
I wondered if the lack of proper anti-skate would effect the Mono SOUND and wanted to solve the physics to prevent wear of: Grooves; Stylus; Cantilever; Depth of Stylus in the groove; my ears; sleep better at night.
I used STEREO cartridge on that arm:
imbalance of l/r SOUND (not distortion) to prove:
anti-skate was too strong: left and center guitars moved right; and
no anti-skate (an option, at least temporarily) proved to be worse, right and center moved left to a greater extent.
1.36 dangling nut got beautiful STEREO balance, imaging, therefore it must be better physics for the MONO cartridge.
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my dead left channel was a blown 6SL7 in the amp, just happened to have 2 in stock in my random collection, whoopee. I had inadvertently mixed my 6sn7 with my 6sl7 for a short while recently, guess it was insulted, finally resigned with no prior notice.
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PRECISELY: less than ideal, that’s been the point of this.
what’s not a good idea?
Mono or Stereo Cartidge: The geometry of the stylus in the groove, sphere, ellipse, shibata, sas are all relevant to mono stylus regarding groove contact.
Anti-skate is critical, stereo or mono.
I wanted 1.5g tracking force for my MONO cartridge. That produces 1.5g inward force. So, set anti-skate at 1.5g, go to bed.
IF everything is accurate.
FR-45 has no way to adjust/lighten AS force. One 2.5g weight, 1 location, on or off. Weight has bottom threads to add more weight.
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1. Down measured via digital scale.
2. Matching 1.5g Inward force measured by Newton while ice skating on a carosel.
3. Anti-skate needs to be refined by ear.
You cannot set anti-skate for a MONO stylus by ear, so:
I used a stereo cartridge, set tracking at 1.5g. Tested tonearms standard 2.5g weight, too heavy. Tried no AS, worse than too much.
Made my own smaller weight by trial,
1.36g floated the stylus in the groove, beautiful imaging of 3 guitarists.
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Put the mono cartridge back on, track 1.5g, the 1.36g weight will do the same as before, float that mono stylus in the groove.
The goal, from the get-go was to float the Mono stylus in the groove, to prevent all the wear issues I mentioned.
what’s not a good idea? |
Anti-Skate varies by Stylus Shape!
I went back on the FR arm, Grace ME+ 1.5g down, and with the polished acrylic disc, no grooves, while spinning: the anti-skate 1.36g was pulling out too much.
I made a new weight, and for the GRADO’s Elliptical Stylus, 1.5g, a 0.9g weight was perfect.
Previous test was with Shure with Shibata tip, also 1.5g down, anti-skate 1.36 was correct.
I was scrolling thru Turntables just for fun, and came across a Garrard. The anti-skate dial had two sides, top and bottom. The bottom was labeled ’Elliptical’, the top was labeled CO 4 or CD 4, photo was a bit fuzzy).
How much stylus contact surface, how deep in the groove, it just shows, these dials cannot be relied upon, the disc with no grooves is a great help, especially for Mono where you cannot use your ears.
Learn something every day. Happily. |
I'm getting rid of the Fidelity Research arm, I just don't like it. |
yeah, the whole 'use my stereo cartride, listening, then good for mono' didn't prove correct, glad I figured it out.
gotta wonder why more turntables don't have different scales like that single Garrard did.
Glad I tried the grooveless smooth disc method, that is so easy. |
