You'll get all kinds of speaker wire recommendations, I like Transparent with Classe amps myself. I have an older Classe amp, and to set it to bridged mode you flick a toggle switch inside the amp. Once you've done that only one output works on the amp (I think it's the right output). So...what you've been told is accurate, no waste, just lots of current to drive the Mirage speakers. Check your owners manual for your Classe amps and if you're not sure how to run them in bridged mode, call Robert at Classe. Enjoy, Jeff |
For fast and transparent, Kimber 8-tc comes to mind. I have a pair of Mirage MRM-1 Reference Monitors. I emailed Mirage for cabling suggestions. They test with many different makes, but suggested Tara Labs or Straight Wire. I have been running Harmonic Technology lately and love the results. I agree with Jeffloistarca, try bridging your Classe's. Good luck. Erik |
i would try straight wire serenade . it is less expensive than the good transparant. i like the sound of it alot, and i have had transparant reference xl. i would say even though you do not want to, try a good tube amp. i know you may think you have good sound, but just wait. tubes can boogie with the best ss. did you also know women hear better than men?you also dont need as much power with tubes. |
thank you for your responces I,am not very good at typing this is a first for me.mybe cables are ok then.What about a new amp.Half thinking about bryston 4bst make a big difference do you think, my classe are not bridgeable.Seems everyone likes bryston I would have to buy without listening no dealers around here,your thoughs on this would be welcome. Thank you |
My experience with the Classe' 70's ( in specific ) are that they are bright and lean sounding. With that in mind, i think that the Tara's would be a relatively good match. If you want something that sounds very fast and clear, try some Nordost. It does not have the mid-bass warmth that the Tara offers. It would therefore lack "prat" in some systems, but it is extremely quick without being "edgy" or "sibilant" sounding.
As to using one channel of each amp without bridging, that is a "bunk" suggestion. Even if it came from the speaker manufacturer himself. Maybe if you had a little "weasel" of an amp with no power supply, but you don't. This was a common trick with the old Quad 405's. It became so common, that Quad even started making the amps with only one channel in the same chassis, but kept the power supply section that was designed for both channels in them. This was their idea of a "monoblock" and it did work much better.
Since the Classe' amps have got good sized supplies in them, i would not worry about that. This is evidenced by their sizable increase in power output as impedance is lowered and their reserve i.e. dynamic headroom rating. Besides that, you are only using them for the mids and treble, where power and current are not as big of a factor. That is, in comparison to if you were trying to power large woofers with a powerful motor structure.
As to Jeff's comments about bridging the amp ( tying the two channels into one bigger channel), voltage is increased and the current remains the same that you would have for one channel. Not only do some amps sound worse when bridged ( primarily due to the use of unmatched driver and output devices from channel to channel ), the bass can get soggier if running full range. If the amplifer actually improves in performance and sonics when bridged, that tells me that the amp was not designed properly to begin with. My guess is that the rail voltages that feed the output devices are too low and the circuit is more comfortable with the higher voltages that bridging produces. Like anything else, output semiconductors and circuits have "sweet spots" where they run best at. Part of building and designing an amp from scratch should take that variable into consideration.
While horizontal bi-amping does have its benefits ( especially if running full range ), i would suggest going vertical in your case. This will isolate the stereo signals and confine each channel to one amp each. This should minimize crosstalk and possibly improve your stereo imaging. If you were running the amps full range i.e. driving the woofers with one channel and mids / highs with the other, i would suggest horizontal.
Keep in mind that there are a LOT of different opinions and variables that apply to every situation. The best way to find out is to experiment for yourself and see what you like best. That way you'll know, see and hear the differences first hand and can chime in with your "experience" and "opinion" as the opportunities arise. Sean
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About swapping out your Classes for a 4BST - particularly if you have to buy "blind", without auditioning the amp in your system. Generally speaking, Classes have a reputation for being a tad "warm" while Brytons, generally speaking, have more of a straightforward approach that some would classify as being on the lean side.
There are cable dealers who will allow you to try out cables in your system with a liberal return policy, which is certainly easier than swapping out your amp(s).
Before going too much farther:
What is it that you are trying to achieve? What type of sound are you looking for?
What is it that you do not like about your present system?
How tied are you to your present speakers? It may be easier to change the sound by changing the speakers than trying to change the sound of the speakers by changing the electronics or the cables behind them.
Please let us know the answer to these questions, and we can better help you.
In the meantime, enjoy. . .
Barton |
Where are you located?
I can direct you to www.tnt-audio.com their DIY section for ideas.
Your thread sounds to me more like the heading of a personal ad...just wondering. You could be Sedond cranking a joke for all it matters! |
What's up with the "helpless female" angle of this question? I realize that women are a rarity in this hobby, but I don't see the relevance of calling attention to one's sex when asking the forum for advice. Having said that, I admit that I probably wouldn't have clicked on this at all if it had simply read "Need expert advice". (Then again, the same ploy could work with any catchy title - imagine seeing "Hermaphrodite needs expert advice"!) As for my views as the ex-owner of a Classe Seventy, see my post in the amplifier archives under the heading "Classe - great amps or highly flawed?" |
Zaikesman;----I'm with you.We can slam you without knowing your sex. Here,it's not pertinent.
I loved that commercial where the two 3 year olds, of each sex are talking.--The little girl asks; "Am I the opposite sex?"
I belong to hermaphrodites anonymous. |
Sean, the Classe amp used Motorola MOSFETS (although you can't tell by looking because Classe go to great lengths to take the markings off). Each FET was tested and matched before being soldered on to the PCB. As you know all output devices have their sweet spot and Classe, like most amp manufacturers, tweak their circuit taking into account the limitations of the output drivers. Yeah, I sold semiconductors to Classe for years. Since the channels are closely matched there's no real downside to bridging; experience has shown the sound improves significantly BUT you have to be an adult with the gain control on your preamp or risk frying your crossovers. Since I have juvenile tendencies and blew up two pairs of speakers (the price you pay for wanting to re-create The Who live) I am no longer running bridged amps. Learned to play an awesome Pete Townsend air guitar though. |
Zaikesman, I think this is Sedond or somebody else posing as a helpless female...just to mess with people's minds!
Someome probably read my posting about Chinese 'research'...and got off on it! |
I agree, when I saw the thread title I came here with an idea of someone that would be asking some very basic, newbie-type questions, then I began reading the post - and saw that it was anything but. so Tarbishaw, female or not, I don't see you as helpless at all and you'll do fine. Hope the advice that you have been given helps you try some new combinations.
best regards,
aj |
I,am not a helpless female only a audionut looking for advice sorry I offended anyone. I,am from cape breton , nova scotia high end here is technics.I bought all my equipment on the advice of men so why change now and it doesn,t seem like a girls thing.All the audio forums seems to be all males telling there stories, believe me wish I wasn,t into this, It is an addiction I think more expensive than smoking drinking,the only thing it comes close to is greed the always waiting more , Been there mirage m3s, om6 now om5s so thinking why not amps and cables only a thought.A Man asked what sound am,I looking for, I think it was man, better, a little improvement.I read where people upgrade 3000 dollar speaker cable, 10,ooo speakers this stuff makes my stuff look like dog pooh so thinking why not a little improvement.A doctor where i work lent me a pair of kimber 8tc Hes a ENT doctor I think he wanted me as a patient,talk about ear bleed they weren,t what I,am looking for .oh well I,ll stay were I,am or bite the bullet and get a more powerful amp and try some speaker cables from the cable company or audio advisor.Again sorry if I offended anyone and thanks for all respones It did help and i guess this lady better stay out of the mens room . |
Hi there--"f n e a"-- I doubt anyone was offended. Hey, in life we play the cards we were dealt.--(People get ugly when they find "me" cheating, so I've cut back on that behavior.)
You're right about this compulsive obsessive hobby.-- And, If you can get more advice announcing your gender--go for it.--Signed: " p i n j "--pretending I'm not jealous. |
Hello friend,,,,
This is Roxy(female too)I got a good comprehensive advise right here from Audiogon, these guys are awesome and cute even though I have not seen anyone of them, dont give up being a female audionuts like me at least we are two now I hope Ok!!! |
Since I'm not an expert,I'll quote this one:
http://www.sundial.net/~rogerr/wire.htm
You read it? An eye opener,huh? |
I don't care WHO the guy is, who he works for, how many tests he's done, etc... If you can't tell the difference between some very specific speaker cables in a system, something is VERY wrong. I am not talking about "stupid" test conditions where people are substituting 30 gauge wire for 12 gauge wire in 25' runs either.
Keep in mind that ALL of the testing that Gordon Gow, Larry Greenhill, Edgar Villchur, etc.. did, they compared ZIP CORD to ZIP CORD. All they changed was the actual gauge used, not any major electrical or geometrical characteristics.
I found this "excerpt" EXTREMELY interesting. "Journal of the Audio Engineering Society by Lipshitz and Vanderkooy titled "The Great Debate: Subjective Evaluation" Volume 29, No. 7/8 July/August. They estimated that when level differences occurred over a wide band, they were detectable down to 0.2 dB." Roger then tries to "discredit" these findings by saying that the authors / conductors of the tests somewhat "negated" their findings via a PHONE CONVERSATION !!!! Why weren't their findings directly challenged in a rebuttal JAES paper or "amended" by the authors if this were true ??? What kind of CRAP is that ?????
Keep in mind that, EVEN if Lipshitz and Vanderkooy DID state this, they specifically mentioned that the differences at extreme high frequencies might be negated due to hearing loss as one ages or their hearing deteriorates. They did not state that the differences would not be noticeable in the midrange, where our ears are most sensitive.
The differences in speakers / speaker cables / amplifiers respond as a WHOLE. That means that some systems will be more sensitive to changes than others. I do agree that gauge WILL affect sonics, but not only in low frequency response that requires greater current. High frequency response and overall tonal balance IS affected. In some severely reactive cases, different wires can literally "make" or "break" a system due to "buffering" or adding reactance to the load that the amplifier sees.
Nelson Pass documents the various levels of loading that occur when ONLY speaker cables are changed within a specific system. There are VERY obvious differences in rise times, overshoot, ringing, etc... amongst all of the cables tested. Now mate some of those cables with various types of loads ( big impedance swings, very low impedance loads, highly reactive loads, loads that vary reactance with frequency, etc ), with different amplifier output designs, and you can see how EACH system could produce enough variables to make ANY "set in stone" claims about audibility / lack of audibility completely "assinine". Anybody that thinks that they know all of the answers for every situation known ( or not known ) to man is pretty narrow-minded and just flat out "dumb".
Keep in mind that i am NOT a proponent of "MEGA dollar wires" nor am i affiliated with any wire / cable manufacturer. I do feel that wires can and do make a difference though. I base this on testing that i and others have shared with common responses.
As someone else stated, buy what makes the biggest difference to YOUR ears. Then have your cables "burned in" for best results : ) Sean
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It,s me again
I feel much better now, thought you guts were making fun of me.Did learn alot espically the amp thing doesn,t seem to be so much of a waste after all.Think I,ll stick with the devil I know.Why waste money on a little improvement if any,a big big one now thats a different thing.Thank you Roxy for your encouragement nice to see another female messing into a male dominate hobby, like you I,am sure just love it. looking for the holy Grail of sound will we ever find it live concerts I guess.Thanks again all respondents |
Tarbishaw, I did not raise my point about your header title because I was offended, as I would have no reason to be. I also did not mean to attack you, or suggest that a female has no place in "the men's room", as you put it. Quite the contrary; I believe that nothing would be healthier, or is more needed, in the high-end world than for it to considerably broaden its audience among not only females, but also people of all colors, ages, sexual orientations, income levels, educational levels, the works. Maybe then an audiophile's sex wouldn't prompt unusual attention. In my opinion, the whole topic is fair and prime game for input on this forum by all folks who are members of any of these groups rare or unrecognized in this hobby, be they veterans or newbies. Just trying to provoke some thought. |
Hello Tarbishaw, another female here, glad to hear from you. The guys here are great, full of encouragement and good advise. Here's my 2 cents about cable recommendations: I have used Transparent speaker cables for years with all kinds of music and both solid state and tube amps with great results. You can find Ultra, Ultra XL, and even Reference here used at good prices. Recently, I sold my Transparent and went with Ensemble speaker cables, a lot less expensive and with no degradation of sound whatsoever. Currently, Ensemble is my favorite cable, for interconnect, speaker, or power cord. If you want to really go inexpensive, try out the DH Labs Q-10 speaker cables. I have a pair that I have swapped in and out w/both Transparent and Ensemble and think they are very good value. Not as good as the Ensemble, but very close for under $300 for biwire pair.
Changing the subject--I'm going to a Celtic Fiddle Festival at a folk music club near here in a couple of weeks, with some musicians from Cape Breton playing, as well as others. You're right, nothing beats live acoustic foot-stomping music! |
Sean, most people in the hobby don't have really trained ears. That's why they rely on reviewers to hear for them. Why does stuff have to get good reviews in order to sell? Any competent salesman knows this.
Then add some prejudices to this mixture and we got ourselves a mess. Look at how people have reacted to my 1200 postings...they criticize yet THEY DON'T HAVE A CLUE! They don't know what they're saying at all!!!
I know you have a good ear because I do and what you've described about the way my system is sounding without ever hearing it denotes extensive experience also. No substitute for that one...
Live and let live/ Live and let die. |
Nice hearing from you Sc53 hope Natalie Mac Master will be there shes awesome.I was thinking about DHlabs-10Q might
give them a try .Thank you,the folks here are good love reading what they have to say ,I sure got good advice but Zaikesman really doesn,t like my amps read his review not good .Thanks again |
Tarbishaw, everyone hears things differently, has different systems and has different personal preferences. As such, take ALL recommendations or comments with a grain of salt. This includes mine too. Listen for yourself, try to absorb as many thoughts and opinions as you can and enjoy the journey.
Sarah, i GREATLY envy you. That sounds like it has the makings of one HELLUVA "hoe-down" to me. Out of curiosity, do you listen to any "harder" music at all ? If so, i think i've got some discs that you might like.
Francisco, drop me an email when you get a chance. I have not received any emails from you in a while, so there is some type of a "goof-up" taking place somewhere in "cyberland". Sean
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