Feedback blew my phono stage?


Ok....I don't know what's going on here but here's my set-up
HALCRO
On the right hand side is my 'nude' Victor TT-101 DD turntable supported on spikes surrounded by 3 three tonearms on separate solid bronze armpods.
The 3 arms are connected separately to the Halcro DM10 preamp's phonostage via 2.5 metre long balanced Cardas Golden Ref phono cables.
With MM cartridges (I have around 30).....there are no problems.
With LOMC cartridges however......if I rest the stylus on the record without the motor turned on......I can induce a low frequency feedback through the speakers if I turn up the volume sufficiently?
Nothing I did to support the turntable differently.....could eliminate this problem so I have simply been playing MM cartridges through this turntable.
Recently.....I mounted an Acutex 420STR MM cartridge on the SAEC tonearm and discovered that it produced the same feedback symptoms as the LOMCs?
In experimenting with differing support methods for the Victor.....I forgot to turn the volume down before hitting the 'mute' button to 'OFF'....and an almighty noise knocked out my phono stage and tripped the protection on the left channel Halcro monoblock.
The 'Balanced' XLR inputs for the phonostage now produce no output whilst the RCA inputs produce a feeble output in the right channel only.

Any Gurus here with some ideas for the cause of this problem would be much appreciated?
Incidentally......no such problems with the 3 tonearms on the Raven AC connected to the same preamp inputs....even with LOMCs?
128x128halcro

Showing 4 responses by almarg

Sorry to hear about the damage to the preamp, Halcro.

Concerning the feedback question, a high gain feedback loop that is unstable at some frequency or frequencies does not require much if any input stimulus for oscillations to occur. The reason that the problem occurred mainly with MC cartridges is most likely that you were using a considerably higher amount of phono stage gain with them, and perhaps also differences in frequency or phase response in the phono stage between when the circuitry that provides added gain for LOMC's is switched in and switched out. The reason that the problem does not occur with the other turntable is most likely that the characteristics of how it transmits acoustic/mechanical feedback to the cartridge are simply different, as a function of frequency and otherwise.

So what is probably happening is that some extremely tiny (and inevitable) low frequency vibration causes the cartridge to output a tiny signal, which is amplified by a high gain factor, resulting in an output from the nearby speaker that causes further vibration to be mechanically transmitted to the cartridge, which is further amplified by that high gain factor, etc., etc. The root cause of the problem is that the overall loop is unstable at some low frequency or frequencies, when the overall gain through the loop is above a certain amount.

I therefore agree with the others that the turntable needs to be re-located.

Best regards,
-- Al
I would not reach conclusions 1, 4, and 5. It seems very conceivable to me that low frequency sound from the speaker or the sub, that is conducted through the air, is inducing a very slight vibration in the tonearm. That in turn would induce a slight vibration in the cartridge body, which would cause the cartridge to output a signal mainly, and perhaps only, when the stylus tip is prevented from vibrating in unison, such as when it is resting on a record.

I wouldn't attach any significance to the fact that the other table doesn't exhibit the problem. It is the happenstance of the combination of a great many electrical and mechanical technical parameters and variables, many of which are unpredictable, that results in the oscillation.

Best regards,
-- Al
Today the Halcro designer writes:-

There were 3 faulty parts. Each input has a common mode choke to reduce noise. Both the phono stage chokes were damaged. There was also an electrolytic capacitor which had failed. Some of the other caps were also showing signs of aging (these parts are known to degrade over time). I took the liberty of replacing all of these caps as a preventative maintenance measure.

I have seen the choke fail on an unbalanced input before. This was caused by a fault in the equipment which was connected to it. If there is a large voltage between the ground and signal connection these chokes can fail. Perhaps you could check your turntable? I must say it is hard to imagine how a turn table could cause this problem.
I too can't imagine how the choke failures could have been caused by the turntable. The only semblance of an explanation I can think of is that the abrupt eruption of the very high level oscillation, caused by feedback, may have in turn caused a very large voltage transient to be generated across the chokes as a result of inductive kick (chokes are inductors). And perhaps that high voltage transient somehow coupled into whatever circuit the electrolytic capacitor is located in (perhaps it serves as a filter for some internal DC supply voltage), causing or hastening its demise.

FYI, see page 6 of this document for an explanation of what a common mode choke is.

Best regards,
-- Al
He's obviously far more familiar than I am with the grounding schemes in the preamp and the amps, but FWIW I can't envision how that could have caused the problem. Especially given that the setup has been working well for a long time, with many different MM cartridges. And there have never been any symptoms when the stylus is elevated above the record.

That said, have you tried grounding the TT to the preamp? (I realize it is a little further away). That is of course the more usual arrangement, and the symmetry it would provide between channels (given that the amps are monoblocks) would seem to make it the more logical approach, if in fact it makes any (sonic) difference at all.

Best regards,
-- Al