Hmm...interesting now that we happen upon shilling. I too operate a tiny used auto business, relying on cars I carefully preselect at live auctions. As these are not "absolute" auctions (where the seller has no right of refusal), but where the seller can refuse to sell (sort of like a hidden reserve on eBay), it's interesting to note that the use of shills has diminished over the years. When my ears were wet in the 80s I was horrified to learn that an owner's employee had bid against me. Sometimes I would discover it in situ, and let the shill "win", resulting in an embarrassing "no-sale" for the seller (who still has to pay aution fees, wait another week for the next selling opportunity, etc.--very inefficient!).
Most experienced buyers learn to ignore shills with an annoying shrug aimed at the seller/auctioneer. The auctioneer then might have to do some fast-talking to back the bid down one increment to save the sale to a real bidder. One lesson here is that I ALWAYS respect my maximum bid (like the eBay proxy system), and thus only get tangled up when I'm being shilled BELOW my max. If I discover the shill I walk up to the seller and exclaim "hey, c'mon!", which usually results in a sale to me at my previous bid, or stops the proceedings, wherein the seller announces his minimum requirement (reserve), which is either agreed upon or not.
Human shilling has thus grown to be seen as silly and inefficient rather than unethical.....
Even more interesting is to note that "chandelier" shills are extremely prevalent! The auctioneer simply pulls false bids out of the air! No matter how fast I look around, it can be quite impossible to discern if a competitive bid was really winked, or whether it was "pulled". Sometimes I'll shrug with annoyance at the auctioneer, who will either shrug ("C'est la vie...I have a requested minimum I gotta get to or he won't sell it to ya!"), or a response of "Don't worry, he's real", or, my favorite: "You watch me, I'll keep an eye on him!" which in addition to being unsettling, can really get you biddng up to your max pretty quickly. Often I've been the phantom bidder used for fake bids if I happen to be sitting in the auctioneer's vision's "sweet spot". If I happen to look up at the auctioneer and notice that he has me "bidding" against a real bidder, he may simply offer thanks with a smile, noting his gratitude for having at least a human body to use to pump the price! But many times that's the point. The auctioneer IS working for the seller (just like Audiogon's OT), and often has to use controversial techniques to get QUICKLY up near the seller's
spoken-to-him reserve. Otherwise the auction is very slow, and fewer items are sold. It's when the shilling process continues well past that reasonableness, like when a newcomer is "pulled" up for
quasi-entertainment purposes, that it gets unethical. One can see the gears in that novice's head spinning furiously as he walks over to the settlement desk. "How'd I get to bidding so much--and SO fast...and I thought there was nobody else there!"
There's a fast learning curve in action!
Note that this entire process averages 45-75 seconds per car! Yup...always about 60 cars/hr. You can set your watch to it, week after week. "I've got a 97 Outback you should check out, Ern. Number 185...go through about 12:30", etc......
Lease company auctions are even more fascinating, as the minimum reserves are sometimes high, and predictable if many items are similar. Thus the auctioneer will either take a strategy of starting at the reserve, and flushing the car through quickly, or starting below that, and "chandeliering" you like a pendulum (as fast as 4Hz!!) up to the "floor" price.
In that way cars are auctioned at the rate of up to 200 per hour!! And yet on eBay I too join you and complain about "owning" an item by bid for 7 days, or ten hours, and then being sniped? HA! You ain't seen nothin' yet, guys! And the funny thing is, no-one gets
heated about this stuff anymore. You just figure what you want to pay, and hope that you'll get lucky. For years now I've been trying to organize buyers "trusts" so that my buddies and I compare notes before an auction and decide who wants what the most, so that at least the Subaru cult doesn't overcanabalize itself. Most of these guys are fierce independents from Maine (yup, the beloved "maniacs"), and believe me it doesn't take much for them to break ranks and jostle each other secretly or openly to fill their inventories.
Often enough I'll suggest that I REALLY want a particular car, and plead with my compadres to not bid against me, but it's rare that that can happen. Some Jungian collective unconscious spurs everyone to make sure that we all pay a sufficient minimum to be "fair". But fair to whom? The group? The CAR? Rejoinders such as "well, I may havta push ya a bit" or "I'll be right there behind ya", or "the car does X$ fer sure" are all benignly stated (and accepted) notices that I'm going to have to pay maybe $500 or $1000 more than I had hoped, or, of course, more often that I simply will be outbid (since I'm disciplined with my maxima). Only certain arab wholesalers operate as a buyers
trust, where one person bids, and then a coin is flipped to see who gets to sign for the purchase. This incenses the auctioneer/seller duo! The Maniacs don't understand the laws of probability, and all claim that they always lose on "flips". Better that they bid each other up to the stratosphere than take turns or flip! There's EXTREME capitalism for ya!
Sorry if this disertation was too tangential. I've been on a decade-long quest to introduce a little benign socialism into the automotive auction process so that we ALL get to eat, but mostly to no avail. I even see guys "bump" each other up one bid increment while walking buy an auction lane just as a "hello" greeting. $100 wasted to say hello? .............
I'm glad to see there's less tolerance for the "I'll put my cable up against yours" bragadoccio around here, but in a way it was just a laughably puny display of male bucking that capitalism entrenches as a professional modus operandi.
I'm not absolutely sure about Audiogon OT, except that it does mimic a live auction better; it's important attribute may be in its dilution of electronic sniping, though, right?
Remember that auctions are very efficient markets that provide coincident, realistic value-setting. The fact that Audiogon (and eBay) auctions are randomly sprinkled instead of staged at "market" times is a large reason for the grumbling, as strange human behavior permutations seem to result in
widespread dissatisfaction. Maybe Audiogon should organize a weekly auction? Good night, folks. Ernie
Most experienced buyers learn to ignore shills with an annoying shrug aimed at the seller/auctioneer. The auctioneer then might have to do some fast-talking to back the bid down one increment to save the sale to a real bidder. One lesson here is that I ALWAYS respect my maximum bid (like the eBay proxy system), and thus only get tangled up when I'm being shilled BELOW my max. If I discover the shill I walk up to the seller and exclaim "hey, c'mon!", which usually results in a sale to me at my previous bid, or stops the proceedings, wherein the seller announces his minimum requirement (reserve), which is either agreed upon or not.
Human shilling has thus grown to be seen as silly and inefficient rather than unethical.....
Even more interesting is to note that "chandelier" shills are extremely prevalent! The auctioneer simply pulls false bids out of the air! No matter how fast I look around, it can be quite impossible to discern if a competitive bid was really winked, or whether it was "pulled". Sometimes I'll shrug with annoyance at the auctioneer, who will either shrug ("C'est la vie...I have a requested minimum I gotta get to or he won't sell it to ya!"), or a response of "Don't worry, he's real", or, my favorite: "You watch me, I'll keep an eye on him!" which in addition to being unsettling, can really get you biddng up to your max pretty quickly. Often I've been the phantom bidder used for fake bids if I happen to be sitting in the auctioneer's vision's "sweet spot". If I happen to look up at the auctioneer and notice that he has me "bidding" against a real bidder, he may simply offer thanks with a smile, noting his gratitude for having at least a human body to use to pump the price! But many times that's the point. The auctioneer IS working for the seller (just like Audiogon's OT), and often has to use controversial techniques to get QUICKLY up near the seller's
spoken-to-him reserve. Otherwise the auction is very slow, and fewer items are sold. It's when the shilling process continues well past that reasonableness, like when a newcomer is "pulled" up for
quasi-entertainment purposes, that it gets unethical. One can see the gears in that novice's head spinning furiously as he walks over to the settlement desk. "How'd I get to bidding so much--and SO fast...and I thought there was nobody else there!"
There's a fast learning curve in action!
Note that this entire process averages 45-75 seconds per car! Yup...always about 60 cars/hr. You can set your watch to it, week after week. "I've got a 97 Outback you should check out, Ern. Number 185...go through about 12:30", etc......
Lease company auctions are even more fascinating, as the minimum reserves are sometimes high, and predictable if many items are similar. Thus the auctioneer will either take a strategy of starting at the reserve, and flushing the car through quickly, or starting below that, and "chandeliering" you like a pendulum (as fast as 4Hz!!) up to the "floor" price.
In that way cars are auctioned at the rate of up to 200 per hour!! And yet on eBay I too join you and complain about "owning" an item by bid for 7 days, or ten hours, and then being sniped? HA! You ain't seen nothin' yet, guys! And the funny thing is, no-one gets
heated about this stuff anymore. You just figure what you want to pay, and hope that you'll get lucky. For years now I've been trying to organize buyers "trusts" so that my buddies and I compare notes before an auction and decide who wants what the most, so that at least the Subaru cult doesn't overcanabalize itself. Most of these guys are fierce independents from Maine (yup, the beloved "maniacs"), and believe me it doesn't take much for them to break ranks and jostle each other secretly or openly to fill their inventories.
Often enough I'll suggest that I REALLY want a particular car, and plead with my compadres to not bid against me, but it's rare that that can happen. Some Jungian collective unconscious spurs everyone to make sure that we all pay a sufficient minimum to be "fair". But fair to whom? The group? The CAR? Rejoinders such as "well, I may havta push ya a bit" or "I'll be right there behind ya", or "the car does X$ fer sure" are all benignly stated (and accepted) notices that I'm going to have to pay maybe $500 or $1000 more than I had hoped, or, of course, more often that I simply will be outbid (since I'm disciplined with my maxima). Only certain arab wholesalers operate as a buyers
trust, where one person bids, and then a coin is flipped to see who gets to sign for the purchase. This incenses the auctioneer/seller duo! The Maniacs don't understand the laws of probability, and all claim that they always lose on "flips". Better that they bid each other up to the stratosphere than take turns or flip! There's EXTREME capitalism for ya!
Sorry if this disertation was too tangential. I've been on a decade-long quest to introduce a little benign socialism into the automotive auction process so that we ALL get to eat, but mostly to no avail. I even see guys "bump" each other up one bid increment while walking buy an auction lane just as a "hello" greeting. $100 wasted to say hello? .............
I'm glad to see there's less tolerance for the "I'll put my cable up against yours" bragadoccio around here, but in a way it was just a laughably puny display of male bucking that capitalism entrenches as a professional modus operandi.
I'm not absolutely sure about Audiogon OT, except that it does mimic a live auction better; it's important attribute may be in its dilution of electronic sniping, though, right?
Remember that auctions are very efficient markets that provide coincident, realistic value-setting. The fact that Audiogon (and eBay) auctions are randomly sprinkled instead of staged at "market" times is a large reason for the grumbling, as strange human behavior permutations seem to result in
widespread dissatisfaction. Maybe Audiogon should organize a weekly auction? Good night, folks. Ernie