et-2 damping trough-good idea or not?

Dear @ct0517  :  """   negates the need for a damping trough.. """

my fault. So for you resonances does not exist or already puts/are at zero in the CF/magnesium ET wands and does not needs that kind of damping.

Now, clear to me and again : my fault about answers from you.

R.

Dear @ct0517  : I know that the ET designer is not even close ( it's far away ) to be a " stupid " gentleman that designed and promotes a damping way in his tonearm where he took the time in the design, manufacture it and the time to make the measurements  to confirm that it works and he is not alone in the damping issue because almost all tonearm designers take in count with seriously and almost always the damping ( one way or the other ) appears in their designs.

So, what's all about your last post?

Here is not about linear tracking vs pivoted tonearm designs and it's not about which kind of those different tonearm designs needs higher or lower damping.

The subject is that both needs some kind of damping to reduce resonance/vibration or distortions: this is the damping target and this is what I try to say through my posts.

Why almost all the time when taliking of tonearms you have to develop a " tale " around the ET. I don't care about ET or linear tracking tonearms any more. I don't know in the future if I can change my interest about.

I posted a question to you: which are your experiences with the damping in your room system with the ET and you decided not to give a direct answer?

Frogman did it and you just can't write: I don't like it or bad experiences or I like it. Simple as that. At the end and with all respect I don't care if you like it or not because that does not change the damping necessity in any tonearm design no matters what.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @frogman  : """  HOW DO YOU KNOW? How do you know what the actual sound is on the recording after being subjected to all those unknowns;..."""

I did not. My common sense tells me that if at each link in my room/system I try/put all kind of distortions generated,  by the room/system,  at minimum then I can be nearer to the recording. That's all.

"""  that mimics the real as closely as possible.  """

that's my main room/system target.

R.

Dear @ct0517  : I appreciated your posts, now you ask for my objective here but you did not answer my question about your own experiences with that ET damping that the designer promotes for good reasons.

I'm talking that in normal conditions we can't overdamp a cartridge/tonearm combination and that's why I made my question to you that till now there is no answer.

I know that the OP already has answers to his thread subject.

Seems to me that for any unknow reason for me you don't want to give the critical damping importance in any analog rig and especially at the cartridge/tonearm scenario.

Again, which are you experienced with the Bruce damping addition to the ET tonearm and different cartridges you own?

As I posted the true enemy that we have ( is a must to. )  to " figth against it and try to win in any analog rig are: generated resonace/vibration/developed distortion, named as you like or want it.

My question to you is still there. Thank's in advance.

@frogman  my system is far away to be perfect and that's why for me the damping issue is so important as for the same reason try to let at minimum on it every kind of resonance/vibration/distortion in and at each single link in my room/system.

"""  tells my ears what neutrality  """, well in my understanding in room/audio systems just does not exist a true " neutrality ", I think that as me some other music lovers/audiophiles  are in the quest/look for that neutrality that can puts me nearer to the recording and then nearer to the lievent where the recording microphones pick-up the recorded signal in the LP grooves.

I think that all we know that in any room/system and no matters what we can't mimic the characteristics that only the live MUSIC has. Not in your system and certainly not in mine.

R.

Dear @ct0517  : """  When they are put against a moving vinyl record which is not perfect, and has imperfections I discussed previously - like the ripples; these imperfections, since this is a vibration resonance activity - EXCITE - the resonances.  """

It does not matters almost all what you posted because linear tracking or pivoted tonearm designs those resonances exist and here we are not discussing if in the pivoted ones are higher or not what we are discussing is the existence of those resonances/distortions that exist in the ET tonearm and that damping helps a lot for a better overall quality performance levels.

As I said in normal use we can't overdamp a tonearm and what frogman like it or not is just what he like it or not but in some way deny the damping function and like me frogman is only an opinion and nothing more.

Btw, you do not yet post/share your experiences with your system regarding the use of that ET damping that Bruce promotes.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @ct0517  : Through my audio years I learned that well damped tonearms designs always performs and sounds better that non-damped ones.

I remember at least the experiences with 3-4 of my tonearms: Micro Seiki MAX, SME V and Audiocraft where all gives you the posibility to handle damping through silicone oil.

MAX 282: I started to listen it with out the external silicon damping and was just great using any of its 3 diferent arm wands.

One day I put silicon in the tray to look what happens with and what I listened did not like me: suddenly the sound losted " life ", gone in the dark side near severe dull response.
I was disapointed and return to listen with out silicone oil.

In those times I owned too the Audiocraft unit and made the same with similar results, I did not like it with more damping.

Latter on and with more attended events of live music and with experiences seated at near field position I came back to my MAX unit and try again the silicon oil and left that way for 2-3 weeks because after the first week I started to appreciated the true advantages of the damping silicon oil.

Where I listened the first advantage was precisely in the bass range that came tighter, precise, not bloated and with no overhang and this makes that the overall frequency ranges stays truer to what I listened in a live event. The Audiocraft experiences were similar.

Through the time the tonearm damping is a must for me. I own/owned non-damped tonearm as the FR/SAEC and differences for the bad/wrong are truly high vs damped tonearms.

But guess what? several/many audiophiles prefer non-damped tonearms or not very well damped ones.

It's almost imposible to overdamp a tonearm because is extremely dificult to stop/inert the horizontal movements due to LP off-centered, the friction forces generated at the stylus tip and the inner oriented vector generated for th LP spin velocity. Overdamping could means problems with cartridge ridding that we can listen it as a mistracking often events and with my very good damped tonearms the good tracking cartridges even are better trackers and I tested with several LPs like the Telarc 1812 where you can listen with more clarity and precision the cannon shots so the harmonics developed are more open/cleAnsed and this helps A lot to the whole frequency range: bettter overall quality level performance.


The SME uses magnesium build material that's very well self damped material and even that the optional silicon oil external damping always sounds better than with out silicon oil.

The Townshed TT is the more radical example of tonearm damping becuse it happens at the nearest position to the cartridge you can do it and you can hear its very high advantage in the damping regards.

Yes, the damping works diferent with diferent tonearm build materials. Aluminum is more resonant than magnesium so we can hear higher improvements in aluminum than with magnesium but even with magnesium or other less resonant materials always we can listen the damping advantages and its whole benefits.

That we can like the more with out than with is something that I experienced and truly convinced I was way wrong.

I have experiences with other tonearms and results are similar when are well damped and when are non-damped.

For the people, normally, the non-damped are more alive with more detail and better HF but all these alive and the like are only additional generated distortions/resonances/vibrations.

The ET2 designer knows very well what I'm talking about as Townshed too.

In the analog rig our enemy are: resonances/vibrations/generated distortions, so we need the best damping we can in the TT it self, arm board, tonearm, cartridge and the LP surface contact.

I don't know if you remember that Sumiko had on sale a very flexible and low weigth belt-like that was used in helicoidal way around any tonearm wand to function as an additional damping and guess what: it works wonderful !!!!


My advice to the OP is: go a head with the ET2 damping trough.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @ct0517  @frogman  : I understand the issue of tonearm/cartridge resonace frequency.

"""  Please note that the tonearm now responds much more slowly due to fluid damping.... """

That could affects in some way the freely cartridge stylus ridding the recorded LP surface but for forgman " overdamps " with the other wands but aluminum where is an improvement.

That does not makes " click " for me with foundation in my premise in my first post here.

I don't know you but I need to find out a different explanation/reasons for that " behavior " because resonat frequency can't explain it at least for me. Why in the same scenario where only changed the wand something has an " improvement " and something " an " overdampiong "? this is the subject of what I need an explanation because I'm ignorant about with that tonearm/cartridges combinations.

R.

Dear @frogman  : " it does ": that could explain that " overdamping " you named but what I can't understand yet because ( again ) I'm not an ET2 expert is:

"""  With the aluminum wand (and my cartridges) it was a definite improvement. """

Could that means that the ET2 with aluminum has a different overall design other than the aluminum build material down there?

because if it's the same overall design but the aluminum wand build material then : why an improvement when the damping affects ( " it does ". ) the normal and free tonearm/cartridge movements? which could your explanation about?


R.

Dear @frogman : I’m not an expert with the ET-2 that I owned many many years ago.

""" need for it by overdamping.... """

overdamping?, why overdamping?. If that " damping " does not affects the normal and " free tonearm/cartridge movements from where could came that overdamping " ?

Feedback of resonances/vibrations in the cartridge ridding the LP surface are the ones that affect/degrades the more the quality of recorded signal. The " ideal " is that those resonances/vibrations and generated distortions can disappear and if the " damping " helps in some " quantity " to that " disappears " that is a good thing.

"" music to sound overly covered and lacking hf air. "

I can’t " see " the existence of overdamping but more that what you are listening is what is in the recording.

What we need is that the cantilever movements ridding the LP recorded modulations stays that way: whit only those modulations with out that " terrible " and always existent feedback that the cartridge takes as " modulations movements ".

Have you a different explanation that that non existent overdamping?

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.