Equipment Break-in: Fact or Fiction

I found some pretty good info on net:

It really isnt that complicated once you understand
there are SO MANY variables. I will post more info
as i find...

http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/des_s99/electronic_
electrical/

Marakanetz..

Er is the dielectric constant of a planar material.

It is how fast (propagation delay) the electromagnetic
fields can pass thru. It is different for all materials
for instance signals on a PCB inner layers Er 2.8 will always travel slower than signals on the outer layers Er 2.8-4.5 because air allows electromagnetic fields to pass
easier. What Im saying is moisture also plays a part and
could effect the Er so until the moisture is gone fields
wont pass as easy. I am not saying the fields will change
the structural make up of the material. Only its ability
to allow electromagnetic fields to pass.

Hope that answers your question and by the way i like
di-poles much better easier to deal with...

I am an Electronic designer. Mostly high speed digital
and alot of analog/digital mixed signal stuff. Up until
about six months ago i would have said there is a break
in but it should be pretty quick (for electronic gear)for
things to stabalize.

But now that I have burned in a Bel Canto EVO6 i will
say that i was amazed at how long it took. The documentation
said about 40hrs. I heard subtle differences all the way
to 300hrs. The dealer i bought from said anywhere from
100-200. Before i went thru it i would have never guessed
it to take that long.

In my opinion the biggest factor is the material used in
the PCB and component fabrication. There are many different
materials and many different properties such as:

Coefficient of thermal expansion (change in length per unit in all directions x,y and z thickness. This is different for all materials. FR4 the most widely used PCB material expands more in the z than it does in the x,y.

Also moisture can play a part in the whole process. I have
seen PCB's not function at all because they werent baked
long enough. And where you live and how much humidity
can play a part in performance. For example I have done a
lot of work for the Dept of Defense and we had to use conformal coating on PCB's to be used for ground and air applications. Sometimes PCB's have to be moisture proof.

Dielectric constant Er changing as materials are burning in could also play a part in burn in.

The difference is with a most products or anything else Analog or Digital. If there is too much noise or clock jitter or whatever the case may be the device wont work and sometimes even if its noisy and it works we dont hear it.

With audio especially the high end stuff WE HEAR EVERYTHING.

One of the reasons i went with the Bel Canto is its a solid state device and very efficient so they recomend leaving it
on for sonic stability. It works extremly well. I love it.

So i cant put my finger on why Exactly and i certainly dont
claim to have all the answers all i can say is i have ABSOLUTELY heard the differences. But then again I could be ABSOLUTELY nuts like some of the other audio people who swear by certain things.

Best regards to all..

I think # 3 would be closest.

Except that I would expect DIGITAL components to fail before audibly changing.
And PASSIVE components would be the most likely to
drift before failing.
80% of all PCB failures are do to solderjoint problems. When the components with the solderjoint problems are replaced they have new solderjoints and most of the time the problem is blamed on components. Not true.
As far as tubes go.. I cant comment.. I dont know reliabilty. I do have tube guitar amps but havent heard a audible difference yet and no failures.

I have had audio equipment play the same (not very well)
for 20 years.

So the answer is all of the above.

Last link i posted was wrong this one should work.
The author brings up some good points.

http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/des_s99/electronic_electrical/

When somebody calls me a liar i take it seriously.
Wouldent you Bob? Did you read what he wrote? It
was totally uncalled for.

Is that a new one? Never heard that before.

Well the one thing that i have learned from being around
electronics my whole life is there is a reason and a
mathematical equation for EVERYTHING. To really diagnose
what is going on someone would have to take all of the
exact properties for all of the different components before
using device and then re-examine ALL of the differnent
component properties again after a period of time. This
could be a very time consuming painfull process.

Seandtaylor99 I think you brought up a really good point.
Why does everyone say it sounds better? I know my current
system sounded better to me.

This is why im gonna stick to my first post:

In my opinion the biggest factor is the material used in
the PCB and component fabrication. There are many different
materials and many different properties such as:

Coefficient of thermal expansion (change in length per unit
in all directions x,y and z thickness. This is different for
all materials. FR4 the most widely used PCB material expands
more in the z than it does in the x,y.

Also moisture can play a part in the whole process. I have
seen PCB's not function at all because they werent baked
long enough. And where you live and how much humidity
can play a part in performance. For example I have done a
lot of work for the Dept of Defense and we had to use
conformal coating on PCB's to be used for ground and air
applications. Sometimes PCB's have to be moisture proof.

Dielectric constant Er changing as materials are burning
in could also play a part in burn in.

These are mostly current flow issues not component drift
issues. I think over time the likely cause of the sound degrading will be component drift.

Im not saying im right or anyone is wrong.

Thats my story and im stickin to it!

Redkiwi,

First of all I dont appreciate your words directed
at me. I was simply describing MY experience which
YOU had nothing to do with. So you wouldent really
have ANY IDEA about it would you? You can guess all
you want... you will be running in circles the rest
of your life... It sounds like youve been at it awhile.

I was trying to throw some REAL possiblilities out there
that can be MEASURED. That is why we have devices to
measure so we dont have to rely on Kiwifruits's brilliant
mind distorting deductions.

I didnt come to this forum to have my integrity and
thoughts questioned by someone who doesnt know me or
my equipment so i would APPRECIATE you not doing that.
I really dont think anyone here would appreciate that.

Oh and by the way even measurement devices drift and have
to be re-calibrated.

REDKIWI,

This is what i missinterpreted(see paragraph below)

The alternative explanation is that some people have brains that immediately decode the distortions in a new system and others are handicapped in this ability and take 300 hours. Being biased I don't like the thought of being handicapped in the brain department, so you can guess which one I prefer.
- The 300 hours burn in is the most persuasive point for me. How come the burn in appears to occur whether we listen to it while it is burning in or not. The alternative explanation is... we are deluded by our prevailing belief in burn in, or I guess we are just lying to prove our point. I can imagine how you could make that assumption. But you can imagine why I don't.

/

As far as i know i am the only retarded idiot (on this thread) that claimed to have heard differences till 300hrs. And was lying to make his case.
I APOLOGIZE...I misread that 100%... I read that as coming
right at me.

I certainly dont mean to crash the party. I am here because i love music/equipment not TDR'S or scopes. I had no idea you guys are so biased against Engineers. Just remember we are the ones who design this overpriced gear. Your welcome.

Again I apologize.

I am gonna switch to de-caff tommorow...

Redkiwi,

Good to meet you also... Sorry I really thought i was
being attacked.

Im guessing most of the people in this forum are pretty smart (yes even if their not engineers) and alot of them are probably perfectionists also. There seems to be a certain type that gets drawn into HI-FI.

One point i want to make is alot of the engineering people
i know dont have the faintest idea the difference between
a good audio component and a bad one. One of my buddies
is a brilliant engineer and he thinks the stock CD player in his car is just fantastic. I almost puked when i drove somewhere with him and he turned it up. My dad has been
in electronics since he was 16... thinks 50 bucks is too
much for a speaker its unbelievable. You should see the look
on his face everytime he comes over there's always new stuff.. He just shakes his head and gives me that your crazy
look. So what im trying to say is even being a good or even brilliant EE doesnt qualify anyone as being an audio expert
automatically...I do understand that.

There are plenty of people here that i want to learn from.
With years and years of experience. I have years with musicical instuments and electronics but i dont have years of HI-FI knowledge. And that is what i love now.
So whenever i think i can make a good point i will throw
it out there but at the same time im listening more than
anyone for other points.

Bob just read your post I understand 100% and i agree.
Thats why im here.

To learn..

Best regards