Eminent technology et2 on Linn Lp12

@pkvintage

Is this video of an LP12 suspension accurate ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBCQNTy1Kt0

Its ok to have an ET2 on a suspended table if ....the suspension is firm enough. As is the case with my turntable which is air , pneumatic - suspended.
We are dealing with a lateral moving mass.

I have never owned an LP12, I remember seeing them in Audio Stores, but never with with ET2's;

A suggestion.

I am curious. Get something that weighs a little more than (.9 lbs - 405 grams). Like a can of soup or beans. Place it on the table approximately where you want the mounting hole to go, and see what happens to the "leveling" of the table. Please let us know what happens if you try this.
Also if you post on the ET2 thread

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/eminent-technology-et-2-tonearm-owners

You may get more responses, and maybe from someone that has direct experience. .

@daveyf
what is your personal experience with the ET2 ?

@daveyf 

Your first post.

Daveyf
The ET arm and a Linn LP12 are a tried and true combo. I have heard this set up in a few occasions, it worked quite well. The ET arm can be a pain to maintain and keep set up, but the synergy between the arm and table.. no problem.

Daveyf
I don't understand how a product that is a pain to maintain and keep set up, can be referenced as part of a "tried and true combo"

Tried and True combo
My definition of tried and true ..once set up, it works as designed, and the person never has to fiddle with it again. I haven't touched my turntable setup in probably two - three years ?  at least.

you ask this question as if it is a challenge.

Based on the video I linked showing the LP12 suspension, IMO, it's going to be a challenge, and it's going to take a certain type of personality to do this setup, and keep it in check.

i could ask you the same question...what’s your experience with the combo of ET2 and Linn, but that might be very presumptive of me...no??

I stated in my previous post I never owned a Linn LP12.

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I am here to share information, learn, have some fun, and try to make it through this final bit of winter.

Question

If the Linn Platter represents a clock face - at what hour position was the ET2 mounted ?

Pkvintage

If someone handed me an LP12 today and said put an ET2 on it, this is what I would do first as a test - and it doesn't take a lot of effort. This is a quick 5 minute analysis - excuse any grammar, etc...
 
1) Level the LP12 plinth/platter without any tonearm.

2) Place the ET2 mounting plate over the existing tonearm hole. Establish height - use a holed wood shim if extra height is needed.

3) Acquire from the bolts place/home depot ; a longer bolt, nut, washer, and also a larger diameter flat stainless steel washer.
The Flat washer should be big enough to cover the existing hole from underneath.

4)Place the ET2 mounting plate over the hole. Insert the longer bolt down through the mounting plate and fasten it from underneath with the flat washer and nut. Level the mounting plate with its spikes. The tonearm is ready to be mounted.
 
5)Mount the ET2 tonearm and measure (A) how far off the plinth has moved from previous level if at all.

6)Re-level the plinth if needed, turn on the air and level the tonearm using only the air bearing (no movement) as a level. Not a bubble level.

7)Place the tonearm air bearing spindle at what is the beginning of the record position. (B) Measure the level at this position.
 
8) Move the air bearing spindle to the end of the record position. (C) Measure the Level again at this position.

This has me curious, so I am interested in your measurement findings at - A - B - C, to find out if the air bearing spindle's weight, as it traverses across produces any deflection. Either here, or on the ET2 owners thread.

Cheers

pkvintage

FYI - Comments received back from Bruce Thigpen - summarized below.  

testpilot - I believe your question is answered as well in regards to the Oracle versus Linn setups.  

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Bruce Thigpen

Linn LP12 setup with ET2

"designed for a lighter load centered on the back side of the
turntable where a conventional tonearm mounts."

"Its been done a few times".

"it's not ideal".

I interpret this as a few have tried, done  it. They need to be very, very good in setup. The "not ideal" comment brings the obvious question of .....how really stable is it?   For myself, a turntable setup that loses its settings, is of little value to me personally. I don't have patience for downtime with my music as its a form of fix for me.  

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I then asked Bruce if it is not best to mount the ET2 in the back corner 1pm position where the pivot arm is mounted by design.  

His response

   

This is probably the best strategy, the Linn, which is an
excellent turntable, is designed similar to the original AR turntables 3 point spring suspension with a low natural frequency. The drawback is that the re positioning of 20 grams or so as a straight line arm traverses the record may deflect the suspension, I have not measured a Linn to know if this is the case.

    On a three point suspension like the Oracle, the ratio of masses
was such that this was not a problem

      - brucet

pkvintage - as Bruce did not do the level measurements that I mentioned in my previous post, I am still interested in them.    

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What ET version do you have ? 

We don't know which version of ET you have 2.0  or 2.5 and what options you are using?  As you know it comes with different armtubes which are different weights (mass), materials, based on the cartridge you are using - MM or MC. I would definitely ensure you are using Bruce' newer longer I beam which reduces the counter weights requirements by half.  Advanced setups of the ET tonearm, Set up the tonearm first without its  wiring - nice and level. The wiring is added after in a single shot to the preamp/phono. The design permits this. This setup takes sonics to another level.

The setup advantage this has - is that it allows one to see how much pull/push the wiring is having. For the Linn LP12, this last step is very important due to the sensitive suspension. The ET2 has the slickest, slippery, smooth air bearing (you can witness this by just holding the manifold housing in your hand (not mounted), insert the air bearing spindle - turn on the air. What you will experience is nothing short of audio magic.  

Now join a sensitive air bearing to a sensitive suspension ......what is the result ?    I do recall reading on multiple occasions of how owners LP12 suspensions went "out" and or needed a Linn TT expert to fix their suspension.

The Audiophile Hobby (AH) begat ............Audiophile Nervosa (AN)...........AN when dealing with sensitive products which require careful setup can begat ............Audiophile Anxiety (AA).

My two 24 years old bring me enough anxiety.   8^0

Daveyf - Cats are attracted to air lines - can produce leaky hoses. We added an F3 Savannah cat, and although I love her and her antics I do fear for my gear.  

It is obvious to me now that Linn LP12 owners - Linnies as has been referenced here - are a very passionate bunch.

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sorry for the long post. 

Frogman - your comments are appreciated.

@pkvintage

Is your friends ET2 tonearm, the 2.0 version, with aluminum armwand and single leaf spring on the I beam ?  

@lewm 

I will provide you with an answer to your question later today. 

Cheers

Lewm
During this back and forth about the ET2, I was wondering more how the DL103 would work with the ET2 than I was about the ET2/Linn combo.

Lewm, et al

Bruce Thigpen has done extensive resonant frequency testing and offers different armwands, I beam setups, to best match up to the cartridge that someone is using. As MC carts became more popular Bruce introduced the larger 2.5 version manifold/air bearing spindle which is better suited to low compliance MC's.

The Vinyl Issue as we know it.

There can be a 3 - 6 db output increase at the specific resonant frequency for any specific tonearm/cartridge marriage. If this resonance happens in the music range that we hear above 20 hz, it can result in well ...lets call it too much bass - a tubby sound. If the tonearm/cartridge resonant frequency happens below 5 hz, which is where turntable rumble and record warps live; then the cartridge/arm combo will exaggerate these phenomena i.e. Woofer pumping. So this is why it is important to match the Cartridge and Tonearm resonances, so that together, they resonate above 5hz and below 20 hz.

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This link is to a Yellow Sticky on the ET2 thread that contains the cartridge guidelines.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/eminent-technology-et-2-tonearm-owners/post?postid=1693347#16...

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On this thread the OP pkvintage has a Denon DL103
Denon DL103 - 5x10-6cm/dyne (100Hz) Very low compliance. 8.5 gms Its on the medium to heavy side.

Looking at the link it would work best on a Carbon Fiber or Magnesium Armwand, and set up with a double or triple leaf spring on the I beam.
And if given a choice the ET 2.5 version is a better choice.

I suspect, (as we did not hear back from pkvintage yet) that his friend who owns the ET2, has a 2.0 version, with aluminum armwand, and single leaf spring on the I beam. These are the most common and usually the ones that come for sale on auctions. pkvintage - pls correct me if I am wrong.

If this is the case he would need to invest in at least another armwand, and have Bruce send him I Beams with double and triple leaf springs to match up better to the Denon DL103.

If anyone is interested in the actual resonant frequencies of the particular armwands, air bearing spindles, I beam leaf springs, and how they work together, we have this info too, and can discuss it. Maybe ask this on the ET2 thread.

Cheers

Good call pkvintage. Enjoy the Music.
For the benefit of the readers, here is a picture of the heavier Mag arm wand that would work best with that Denon cart.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/L7fEPzN9j8vFZfmQ9

If I was in audiophile mode, I would be almost tempted to find an LP12 and try it to find out what happens.  

Lewm
So the talk about leaf springs etc. leaves me in the dark.

I know you're a car guy Lewm from previous posts, and I don't know if you remember me posting about the Guild car garage, a 10 minute drive from me, who have a show called Restoration Garage on the History Channel?  Anyway.
  
Lets imagine a vehicle with a single leaf spring suspension in the back. Now Imagine if we hung that leaf spring and wacked it with a mallet. Now weld another leaf spring onto it - becomes a double leaf spring, more rigid, capable of holding more weight, and if we wacked it again, its tone would be higher. A higher resonant frequency.

Now for the ET2 tonearm no different except the leaf spring/s are obviously very small and fit at the junction of where the I beam joins the end cap, and they flex -----------> Sideways, instead of Vertically like in a vehicle.

The other significant thing about the ET2 leaf spring design, is that it isolates the counterweights mass on the I Beam, from cartridge cantilever.The cantilever doesn't see the sideways weight on the I Beam. This is very significant compared to other linear trackers in regards to cartridge wear. This phenomena can best be seen / demonstrated by putting a heavy cartridge on, and using an out of round record, with a single leaf spring I Beam. The Single Leaf Spring I Beam holding the counterweights, will be seen cushioning like a shock absorber.

@lewm 

Lewm - I am a visual learner, and I would have to see the leaf springs on an ET tonearm

ok - A picture is worth a thousand words.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/93iD8kknnvnoXmeU9

I don’t think there have been too many leafsprung automobiles made since the 1950s.

Hmmmm.....so then,  doesn't the automotive leaf spring technology match up well to the record / LP - technologies ? 8^0

fwiw - I use a 2018 Toyota Tundra - Built in your Lone Star State - for trailering my 993, boats and performing cottage work. It has leaf springs. I can't imagine being without them. so Horses for Courses.

Just to confirm the analogy I used focused on - if you make a spring firmer (more rigid) in any industry, field, timeframe - its resonance goes up.

.....and this playing of records being a resonance and vibration hobby.  

Lewm - the Guild is an hour north of Toronto

Cheers