Eminent Technology ET-2 Tonearm Owners

Frogman,
Sent you an introductory pm.  Let me know if you get it.  Want to be sure I send to correct person.
Harry

Thanks again to everyone.  This assistance is better than having a therapist.  

Frogman, yes! absolutely, extra board will surely do the trick.  Perhaps a thin sheet of sorbothane between the two.  Assuming I can figure how to pm, I'll send you my address. Thank you, thank you!

We audiophiles all have our graveyard for old or unused equipment. I, too, still have a Tice clock, a box of various footers, (sorbothane, black diamond racing cones,Walker valid points with lead pucks, the original mod squad tiptoes, Michael Green tuning points) various interconnects and speaker cables dating from 1980's or later, electrical parts and connectors, various capacitors, wire bundles, ic's, circuit board material, tubes, which are still good but replaced with "designers." My favorite piece, now sold, was an ancient 841L EAR preamp I bought as "trash" from a local dealer for $200 because of a bad power switch and power light. -Both replaced for nothing and after years of use and storage, sold for $900. Still on the shelf is an ARC BL-1 which converts SE signals to balanced. My dealer told me to never sell it!
I could go on, but you get the picture.
By the way, Harry, if you don't have the aluminum base, get Bruce to send you one. -Very worthwhile.
John

Audio Storage Wars would assume someone went through the stuff and organized it - sort of  - to put it in the locker :^)

on a related note.
this past winter I brought my son downstairs and went over everything with him. I put a price on stuff - it sunk in - I hope. Don't want the wife to sell the stuff she has "noticed" come in, for what I told her it costs.

I have two boxes of Amperex Bugle Boys from Holland and the US. For the records, I told him some are worth over 500, but if you assume 3 bucks each - you can buy a really nice car with them so don't just give them away.

Or, "Audio Storage Wars". I’m sure I am not alone and God knows what else I have in that cabinet. Rules: we get to look over (from a distance) at the audiophile’s room and system and then bid, without looking inside, on the "Miscellaneous old stuff" drawer or box. Old Supex? Telefunkens? Tice "Magic Clock" (I’m showing my age)? One never knows.....👍

^^^^
They should come out with a new show on the History channel - American Audiophile Pickers.

very nice gesture Frogman. 

Well, I guess my wife is right; I really am a pack-rat. All this talk about arm boards for the HW19 got me thinking and looking in my "equipment graveyard" cabinet where I keep all sorts of stuff not needed nor used for many years in some cases. In one of the drawers I found not one, but two HW19 black acrylic arm boards drilled for the ET2. Harry, as another option for you and as an opportunity to scratch your tweaking itch, if you want one of them you are welcome to it, gratis. You could sandwich it with your existing one for approximately the same height as the "thicker arm board"; you would of course need longer bolts which I know are available at Lowes (or VPI?). You could also experiment by putting a thin layer of some sort of damping sheet between them; sure to change the sound a bit (resonance!). Don’t know why, but one of the boards is 7/16" thick and the other 8/16" thick; the thinner one is in better cosmetic shape and both came from VPI. Neither is bad cosmetically but you can always put yours on top. If you are interested pm me your address and I will send it to you. Re washers: delrin would be good, but I would experiment with metal as well just for fun, and I suspect that simply the act of "suspending" the armboard a bit away from the metal subchassis would have more of an effect as it would surely change its resonance somewhat and more than whether the washers are metal or not. Always fun to experiment.

I’m not sure I know what Bruce’s "new Aluminum Base" is?

Harry
The part the longer grub screws he is sending you go into. The actual tonearm base. Bruce came out with a solid Aluminum one - very substantial difference in weight - I own one. So Bruce now offers an Aluminum Joint (Gooseneck) and Aluminum Base. I also think he is going to be doing a run on the longer I Beams too.

Just a note recalling here over coffee - past Et2 owners have put some divots into the original Carbon Fiber tonearm base from improper tonearm level adjustments. Some have even put a crack in it.

Very important when leveling the tonearm to back out the vertical bolts first then re-balance with them. It can be habit to just do the side that you think needs an adjustment. This is wrong and over time stresses the parts, and that critical base that holds all the goods. So back out the vertical bolts first, visually look to see they are not touching the base; then just re-balance them. I balance using gravity. Make the teeter totter float with a little blue tac on the weights, same weight as the cart. leave it next to table for future reference. Its been years since I have had to level adjust. That’s one of the things a better table brings.

I can recall the HW19 mk4 being frustrating in how it could go out of level fairly easy if not careful with those springs. You can go with pucks Harry - but then you will need to replace the plinth feet with springs, pneumatic feet, or some other type of isolation. 

I hope you can get back to the music soon too.

Cheers Chris

Chris,
Your suggestion about resetting height for thickest and thinnest records won't work for me because I already have the manifold up as high as it will go.  No room left for up adjustment of manifold height.

You are correct, Bruce is sending me longer grub screws.  But I was, indeed, referring to Bruce's aluminum protector base for wood arm boards.  It is, however, probably not thick enough to give me the height I need.  I'm not sure I know what Bruce's "new Aluminum Base" is?

Frogman,
I am also intrigued by your washers between the acrylic arm board and the the metal board beneath.  This solution would allow one to raise height without messing with the tone arm mounting setup.  Just unscrew the acrylic arm board (with tone arm attached) from the metal one beneath it, place the washers and screw them back together.  Correct?  Of course one would first want to place the guard on the cartridge and remove the wand so as not to shear off one's cantilever (been there, done that).  Would you recommend Delrin or plastic washers as opposed to metal washers?

Studying the arm tonight the thought occurred that a taller joint (gooseneck) with a couple of extra holes would address this issue. As long as the junction with the wand was firm, I don't see a downside.  Probably not cost effective for Bruce, however.

I love this hobby but am anxious to return to listening to music instead of listening to my system.  That is if any of us ever gets there.
Cheers,
Harry

Hi Guys

I have used longer leveling spikes in the past which is why I recommended them. The word spikes imo is misleading. Spikes to me, mean something like this.

Spikes

Long Pointing Spikes would not be recommended. They remind me of the point on my old VPI unipivot tonearm. Pegasus some time ago did a good explanation on what happens with the point and chatter.

The leveling feet in the ET2 mounting base are actually grub screws. If you see this link

Pointed Grub Screws

you can see why longer ones would not be an issue. They are strong. the ones in the pic are not the ones Harry is getting. Just a sample for the link.

Harry, when you said Aluminum Base earlier I misunderstood and thought you meant Bruce’ new Aluminum base, not the Aluminum protector as I call it. The other thing I do and this comes from all the experimentation I did, is to drop some oil in all vertical holes that connect say the tonearm to the armboard. I drop some oil into the ET2 base hole - the one the actual bolt that holds down the tonearm goes into, if the bolt is going into metal - aluminum, brass, etc...

Did you find out why John’s gooseneck only has two holes ? :^)

Cheers Chris

I wouldn't have thought you could gain a lot of height from longer spikes, but  Bruce knows best.
I emailed him about the joint with only two mounting holes, and asked if getting the manifold even with the platter was critical.
-No response as yet.
John

John,
Didn't mean to blow off your suggestion of thicker arm board.  It is my preferred solution.  I'm going to keep my eyes open for one.  Failing that, next time I am feeling masochIstic I'll tear down the table and take my arm board to my local acrylic store to have it duplicated in thicker stock. :)
Thanks,
Harry

Following up.  I emailed Bruce.  He thought the longer leveling spikes were the best solution and is sending me some.  Thanks again for all your suggestions. I will report results even though all you guys have long ago blown by my lowly HW 19.🙄
Harry

P.S. Pegasus, I actually thought of your wedge solution but glue on my beloved Delos?  Horrors! 😱

I don't believe that Bruce's aluminum base will do the trick. It's just a thin metal plate which you put between the armboard and ET-2 base, to prevent the feet of the base from digging into a wooden armboard. I vote for a new thicker metal armboard by hook or crook.
John

Great responses.  Thanks to everyone.  I have the HW 19 MK IV which utilized a black acrylic arm board with the metal sub-plinth.  Plinth and arm board are the same thickness.  I also have what I think was the original TNT platter (black, lead filled with cork underside.)  The thickness of the platter relative to the height of the post is what causes the problem.

Seems like nicest fix would be the thicker arm board VPI once offered but is no longer available.  There is a place near me here in deep rural that works in acrylic that I can get to make me a new, thicker arm board.  It would raise the post relative to the platter.  Next choice is the aluminum base Bruce offers if it is thick enough.  Since my arm board is acrylic there is currently no base installed.  I'm also intrigued by Chris's idea of longer leveling spikes. 

I'm going to touch base with Bruce to see what he suggests.  Genius that he is he may have a simple fix. 

The issue is not critical.  I am near the upper limit of VTA adjustability but have a little (very little) room left.  It limits ability to experiment.
I'll report back.

Thanks again for all the helpful suggestions,
Harry

-Lots of choices here. I'm not the expert on this, but if I owned the VPI table, I would call VPI and get a thicker armboard -metal if there is one. The adjustment feet on the base tend to dig into wood and loosen over time. On my SOTA, the armboard is a aluminum acrylic laminate with metal adjustable pods where the base feet are located. Too much info, huh?
John

Re/ VTA & gooseneck range not high enough: Having a BSc in audiophilia nervosa including a MSc in empirical material testing... :-)
I'd propose a surprisingly crude idea, which might work better than it should. Have a carpenter (or your right hand :-) make a wedge formed piece of wood - good sounding wood like solid fir or similar, or maybe also birch plywood. The wedge is placed between the ETs headshell (doesn't need to protrude from the wand) and the cartridge, covering not more than the interface between your cartridge and the arm wand. The wedge corrects for the back tilt angle of the arm if the manifold and gooseneck are in middle & correct positions. Maybe the wedge is 2mm front and 4.5mm back - make a drawing and calculate the height correction.
You could glue the wedge to the cartridge with a bit of white glue / elmers glue which doesn't hold to metal all too well. This makes an easily breakable connection. The other side (either to the arm or to the cartridge) uses screws - or maybe even thin double stick tape. *Not* having a totally rigid connection with natural materials in the "mechanical loop" often sounds more natural.

Harry, I don’t know if you have the thicker arm board that VPI made for the HW19 Mark IV to address the very issue you are having. If you don’t, they may be able to make one up for you. When I purchased the thicker platter for my HW19 years ago and before I got the thicker acrylic armboard my solution to the problem was to put washers between the metal subchassis and the underside of the regular armboard (or thicker one, if that is what you have and you still need more height) with the bolts going through them to raise the arm board to the desired height. Good luck.

Hi Harry -see if this helps

Find your thickest and thinnest records that represent extremes. Leave armwand in the top hole of the joint. Since your VTA is already at the high point, leave it there and use the thickest record sample first. Adjust the post height so the Air Bearing Manifold scribed line is in line with the thick record. Adjust cart.

Then put on the thinnest record. You now have the full VTA travel to adjust for it. Does that help ?

This can be done in reverse with the thinnest record and VTA set at the low point.

Note: if you need some extra overall height an easy thing to do is to swap out the 3 leveling spikes (grub screws) on the mounting base for longer ones. Also - The aluminum base is much heaver than the CF, very solid, no way of cracking it, but has the same dimensions.

Chris

Hey Harry,
I wish that I could help more but I'm not that familiar with the VPI tables. In my case, I have the scribe line on the manifold just .5 cm above the platter. I think that this might be close enough. I think you should first put the VTA adjustment in the center of its range. Then adjust the attachment of the manifold to the base to put the scribed line even with the platter or close. At that point, if the arm and top of the cartridge are not parallel to the platter, I would raise or lower the manifold attachment to the base. I think that this step is least critical. 
You want the arm and cartridge to be parallel to the platter or record surface with some adjustment left on the VTA adjustment. You don't want the adjustment all the way up or down. 
If your armboard is wooden, you could add height with a matching piece of stock of suitable thickness. If it's metal, which is better, get a metal piece of suitable thickness cut and attach it with screws.
I'll bet that Bruce has an answer for you. He's pretty quick to answer emails.
These arms can really be a PIA as I said but don't give up on the Lyra cartridge. You can work it out.
Good luck,
John 

Hello all,
With further fine tuning I'm running into the same VTA issue with the new mag arm wand.  I have the original goose neck.  I can get the Delos level only using the top hole in the goose neck with the manifold at its highest and VTA almost all the way up.  This puts the scribe line on the manifold significantly above the record surface.  Works fine for normal LP's but I'm pushing the limit on a 180 gm.  Haven't tried a 200 gm yet.  Studying Bruce's manual it seems the only solution is a thicker arm board.   Maybe adding the aluminum base would work.

John, if memory serves you have a Lyra cartridge. I'm guessing it is the same geometry as my Delos.  Maybe a cartridge that is not as tall would work but that's an awfully expensive fix.
Harry.

Thanks for that, Chris.
I got it pretty close. I listened tonight and got blown away by the bass and most everything else.
I'm a happy camper at present. It's set up properly, and I probably wasn't careful and patient enough with that in the past. I'm not sure I want to mess with it any more. I'll probably stick with the WISA pumps and 7psi, and not screw with the wire loom. I'm using the very thin copper litz wire that Bruce rewired my spindle with. It's set up with very little effect on the balance of the arm.
The ET-2 is a finicky thing, sometimes a PIA, and I understand why some people can't deal with it and write it off immediately.
I guess the people in this discussion understand what a piece of high tech it is, and how rewarding it is to get it right. 
-John

John I just checked his website and the new joint pic does indeed show two holes.
well - just me, but if I am mounting a 4 figure cart on there and I need the top hole, I am getting the joint with the top hole drilled.
this is very good info for others glad we discussed it.
You know Bruce, he will fix it for you.

Chris,
I don't know why I got one with only the two mounting holes. I assumed that all the new aluminum joints came that way. This one is straight from Bruce. 
So, I never told Bruce about it. Maybe I got one from the bottom of the barrel. He did give me a discount, however.
I just might email him about that.
-John

John, didn’t know the top hole was missing on the new aluminum joint.
Did Bruce explain why ?
so I got curious and lined up my previous CF joint which was set on the top hole with my aluminum joint
from NZ. they are the same by eyeballing. So it was made with the top hole dimension.  

Thanks for the advice, Chris
Unfortunately, I have the aluminum joint as well, and it is missing the top mounting hole, making it impossible to get the manifold on plane with the platter and the tonearm level at the same time. I.E. I have to mount the manifold higher to get even close to a level wand. It's just not a perfect tonearm from that standpoint. 
One size doesn't fit all cartridges. I really wish the aluminum joint had the third mounting hole at the top, but I'm not willing to drill and tap it. Then again there's a machine shop up the street.....
John

Hi Pegasus

I’m not exactly shure what this would mean? More upfront placement = faster bass?

No not faster but bass that when you hear it, is not bass that has bounced off your room walls - God only knows how many times (being sarcastic) before it finally reaches the listeners ears.

So in reading further into your post. you said.

But I agree, that close-field placement is the preferable "error", because a) the excursion / level of the subwoofer can be considerably lower, b) the decrease of room reverberation level relative to the direct sound level should reduce audible room resonances & bass colorations = c) the modification of the subs frequency response by room resonances drops an order of magnitude.

Yes - and all of these benefits include the sub lasting longer ! You know I consider subs disposable items. When they fail - good luck getting the amp and electronics out of the good ones as it has to be glued in there good with all the vibrations. In fact I won't say which manufacturer, but a very well respected one - told a friend when his failed "we can't repair" but,  "we will sell you a new one" 8^0 .

All it takes is one 22 year old blasting XXXXX music over a period of time - that sub will indeed fail sooner. Let me know if you wanna hear some funny stories about my 22 year old male with his two JL Audio subs under the back bench seat of his Honda Ridgeline ? his truck has 350,000 kilometers. Still no rattles.

Before setting for Cart VTA.

There is 1) manifold air bearing height and 2) armwand height.
3) Then the Cart.

That’s how I have done it. When I was on that slippery slope with the turntables I must have mounted the tonearm; well you know I don’t know how many times on different tables. Different height platters and armboards. Sometimes no armboard, but separate armpods instead.
So what I do.

1) Air Bearing height
The inscribed line on the middle of the manifold is the guide for proper vertical height of the air bearing spindle. With the VTA range in the middle raise/lower post height to try to get as close to possible to having the record surface even with the inscribed line in the manifold.

2) Armwand height
If your armwand height does not allow you to mount your cart properly, raise/lower the armwand height. The stock joint (gooseneck) allows for lowering or raising the armwand to get parallel. I lost this adjustment with the Aluminum Gooseneck I got from NZ. The upgraded Aluminum Joint that Bruce sells now still retains this adjustment.

3) Cart
This should get you in the ball park with being parallel, and use the VTA to fine tune by ear. Now due to how complicated the vinyl set up is, (so many variables) , I always set up Digital first, get it working right, then I unleash the vinyl and see how close I got. This is what I have done in the past going by memory.

*************************

A couple updates.

I struck out today at the hobby shop on trying to get some kitty attracting foot long I Beams. 8^0
They looked really good on the internet link I posted but were way to thin and flimsy in person.

I also asked Bruce in the ideal situation how long should the I beam be. He told me shorter than a foot and as close as possible to the length of the armwand. This supports the teeter totter analogy I used earlier. I told him to consider doing a run on the longer I Beams as they are fairly inexpensive even with our Canadian dollar :^( and that there would probably be people interested when they found out.

Thanks frogman,
I don't overtighten my cartridge screws, and my wand is spanking new.
So, can I assume that if the wand is parallel to the record, the cartridge top is as well? I just need a starting point.
John  

What started me thinking about the issue of how much to (not) torque down on bolts/screws was when I realized that I had inadvertently compressed and deformed one of my wands’ "head shell" to the point that the cartridge would no longer be "parallel to the record surface"; which I believe, in theory, it should be. Obviously, that is still no guarantee of intended VTA.

The newer Magnesium wand is definitely heavier, and precluded my using a stock I-beam. In the final listen, I had to conclude that two springs work best in my setup, with two little damping pads removed, allowing freer movement. Bruce said I didn't need them.
My cartridge is supposedly best with the top surface parallel to the record surface. This is hard to eyeball, especially when the arm wand looks parallel and the cartridge looks tilted back.  Does anyone know if, when the arm is parallel to the record, the cartridge is parallel as well? I mean is this a good starting point for setting VTA? My eyes are old and parallax gets the best of my judgement.
Thanks,
John 

Hello Chris,
Good audiophile day here in the Carolinas. Crisis over.  I tore down the VPI to more closely inspect the shaft and pulley on the SAMA.  My SAMA is a very early version which included a small flywheel.  It is like a very fat stainless steel washer that slides down over the pulley and rests on a flange at the bottom of the pulley, just above the motor housing. It is not attached to anything but just sits on the flange.  I noticed that the flywheel was wobbling far more than the pulley/shaft.  In discussions with a former dealer friend of mine in Florida he advised that the flywheel only came with very early versions of the SAMA and VPI had abandoned it because they found it more detrimental than helpful.

So.......I reassembled the table and tried it without the flywheel.  Voila, rumble and speaker pumping all but gone.   It's not 100% but pretty close.  I'll need a new motor someday but it is certainly not critical.  Incidentally, I had the same thought regarding a loose set screw on the pulley.  That is why I tore down the table.  Unfortunately, this version of SAMA has no pulley set screw but is evidently pressure fitted over the motor shaft.

Chapter 2:. Santa Clause arrived today with my magnesium arm wand. I installed it and redid setup.  I'm only using the one big weight in addition to the one to which the other weights attach.  Initially one weight was not enough to get proper tracking force even at the very end of the plank.  Rather than add weight I turned the weight bracket around so the weight barrack screw points out instead of in.  Unfortunately, I installed the new wand right after solving the rumble problem so I'm not sure which improvements are attributable to which tweak but, midrange seems a little warmer, bass tighter, separate instruments seem better defined and upper end smother but no less extended.  I don't have 20 foot wide pianos or drummers with a 15 foot wingspan. Finally, the soundstage seems a little deeper.

Next time wife is away for a few hours I'm going to try the near field sub placement.  More on subs later.
Cheers,
Harry

Chris, I wish I could give you a more interesting 😉 description of how I remove tonearm cartridge leads from a cartridge, but my method is exactly like yours. Only thing I would add is that the tiniest amount of Deoxit helps keep the connection lubed and easier to separate while presumably also helping conductivity. Your use of a toothpick is also my method of expanding clips that are too tight due to overcrimping. As you know, when crimping the clips in order to make the connection tighter it is all to easy to crimp it in a way that the clip loses round; this would most likely decrease the number of contact points between the clip and cartridge prong. I took a small needle nose pliers with serrated "teeth" and by using a small thin round hobby file I made the space between the "teeth" and on both sides just wide and deep enough to cradle the cartridge clip; this allows crimping with equal pressure along the entire length of the clip without deforming it; and I do this with the toothpick in the clip to help keep round and to prevent overcrimping. Re subwoofers:

In my experience, you are exactly correct re near field placement. My pair of REL’s sit on either side of my two-person listening couch. I set the xover point as low as possible; usually at 28hz with occasional adjustments of a couple of hz one way or the other depending on the recording. I find that anything much higher than that thickens the sound in the midrange unnaturally and what I am looking for, more than anything, is not necessarily more obvious bass weight, but the concert hall (and studio) ambient information that is found in that frequency range. I also find that the midrange, independent of the presence of obvious bass information, takes on added purity and density when the system can reproduce the lowest frequencies. A controversial topic and not entirely understood (certainly not by me), but just as there exists the overtone series in music, we have undertones or subharmonic series that factors into all this. For instance, a recording of a woodwind choir playing in a range well above a subwoofer’s xover point will sound noticeably fuller and with more tonal density (as in live music) with the subwoofer on than with it off; importantly, and as Pegasus points out, eventhough there is no spurious midrange information being reproduced by the subwoofer. Re inverting phase setting: I think whistling 😚. One can whistle while blowing air out or by sucking air in. To me, the correct phase setting sounds like the bass is being projected out (as it should be) as opposed to sounding like it is being sucked in. The latter, as well as generally sounding weaker in volume, detracts from the contribution of the bass instruments in musical terms. I like your hand on the woofer cabinet method. Btw, while I generally agree that directionality is not a major issue with subwoofers, before I bought a second REL,  I found that with a single sub "up-front" with the main speakers sometimes center images would subtly "lean" in the direction of where the sub was placed (if to one side or the other); again, whether there was obvious bass information or not. Regards.

Harry so your motor looks like this ?

See this thread on the VPI forum.

specifically one poster says.

"First, tighten the pulley on the SAMA (there should be a grub set screw on the pulley collar). This should stop the wobble."

Not saying this is your problem but check.

and other than that, if the shaft is loose but still works and the wobbling is not caused by the SAMA feet; then I would be tempted, to remove the top screws and have a look inside. If the shaft is on a type of frame holding it up, one of the frame feet or frame feet washer if one even exists may need replacing.

Just giving ideas. long time since I had the hw19 mk4.

Chris

Chris & Everyone,
Will respond to Chris and his subwoofer discussion later.  Right now I have a crisis.  While listening tonight I was hearing dreaded rumble in quiet passages.  Upon investigation I discovered the shaft on my stand alone motor assembly for the VPI HW-19 was so loose it was actually wobbling.  And we all know what a warbling shaft can cause - Rumble!  

My SAMA is the original in the round silver base not the later one with beveled corners.   Been searching Internet and all places that had it appear out of stock.  I don't think VPI makes this SAMA any more.  Does anyone know if the motor assembly can be removed from the base and replaced and, if so where the replacement motor can be purchased?  Any suggestions will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Harry

P.S.  Tweaking is fun.  Breakdowns are not.😰

Chris

So just a question.
Bass waves are slower than all the others. So why do people put subs X feet behind their mid and tweeter drivers ? Just asking.

If I was you Harry I would be very tempted just "temporarily", to set up in near field for one hour - just to hear what was possible with one sub.

I’m not exactly shure what this would mean? More upfront placement = faster bass?
Placement is a question of "allowable" phase angles between drivers caused by offset drivers (specially in distance to the listener). As long as this offset phase angle is not far off, there is no "real" problem.
Bass waves travel at the same speed as any acoustic wave in air, but have longer wavelengths, so offset distances in the low bass can be considerable without being audible. Usually it’s said to be desirable to be below 90 degree - I’d keep it lower, to be on the safe side in the cutoff region where the subwoofer is still emitting considerable upper bass levels.
At 40 Hertz xo this would still be 67cm for a quite tight max. 30 degree difference. This results in an allowable 120 degree two octaves above, at 160Hz, at eg. -24dB (for 12 dB/oct.)
But I agree, that close-field placement is the preferable "error", because a) the excursion / level of the subwoofer can be considerably lower, b) the decrease of room reverberation level relative to the direct sound level should reduce audible room resonances & bass colorations = c) the modification of the subs frequency response by room resonances drops an order of magnitude.
But... it works only if there is no spurious midrange energy exiting reflex tubes or coming from the driver. Still - the lower sub levels reduce distortion and "box talk" & "cone cry", both help.

Harry/John
here is one of the attempts at magnetic damping must be at least a couple of years now.

"Attempt at Magnetic Damping"

that is a 2.5 spindle. You can tell its a 2.5 because the end cap does not overlap but sits on an insert that makes it flush with the spindle. Bruce also tried this experiment with the strongest neodymium magnets.

Pegasus feel free to email your pic to me if you like.

bcpguy (at) bell (dot) net

and I can post for you.

Hey Pegasus,
I'd really like to see a picture as well. I don't understand the placement of or type of magnets you describe, but would really like to try this tweak.
To everyone: I solved the loose cartridge connector problem, A pair of hemostats is a useful thing to have. -Just the right amount of squeeze tightens the connectors on the pins.

a) regarding wiring: I have to try again to photograph - the lighting makes pictures difficult... patience :-)
b) Fridge magnets & damping: Drop a circular magnet into a vertical copper tube. An enlightening sight - the magnet centers itself and *creeps* down very slowly instead of passing quickly!
Magnetic attraction is needed for static force only or for DC so to say.
With movement or "AC" the magnet induces a current into a close conductor (for which alu is moderately good), which creates a counter field, ie. a damping action. OK :-)

John, to remove leads I use a tiny fine slot screwdriver. I insert into the tiny opening between the lead and cartridge prong and rotate slowly.
Lead will come loose. To close leads that have opened I insert a round wood toothpick at the opening I want squeeze gently with pliers.
After learning how Frogman removes dimples from dome tweeters, I would be very interested to know how he does cart lead fix. 8^0

PS to my above post: It seems that the spindle on the ET-2 is anodized aluminum.
I held a magnet to it and found NO attraction. Duh! So, how does mounting a cabinet magnet under the spindle provide any appreciable damping?
Enquiring minds want to know.

that’s a question for Pegasus and I believe Dover also who used a fridge magnet. A picture is worth a thousand words !

using the best AudioGon Draw here is how I set it up.

x...0....x

x’s represent magnets - same poles facing one another
0 is the exiting spindle.

I need to go do some boat cleaning. can post a pic later of how I experimented with the magnetic damping, before it was abandoned. but I warn ahead time .....this is heading into that Audiophile dark area.....for reasons posted previously.

*****

Also Harry - I’d like to discuss the bass further, and I am very curious about Johns speaker setup.

fwiw - the Vandy sub was crossed off my list because it requires you go through their crossover first and then to your mains. Was not going to happen in my room..

So just a question.
Bass waves are slower than all the others. So why do people put subs X feet behind their mid and tweeter drivers ? Just asking.

If I was you Harry I would be very tempted just "temporarily", to set up in near field for one hour - just to hear what was possible with one sub. Then negotiate with the wife later. 8^0 hah hah

Cheers Chris

Hi John,
I had same question but was too embarrassed to ask.
Thanks,
Harry

PS to my above post: It seems that the spindle on the ET-2 is anodized aluminum.
I held a magnet to it and found NO attraction. Duh!  So, how does mounting a cabinet magnet under the spindle provide any appreciable damping?
Enquiring minds want to know.
Sorry,
John

I'm with you.  I was flattered to hear I test for best phase adjustment like you do.  Hand on sub driver while listening to bass passages.  I know that below a certain frequency (probably 60 to 75 hz) sound is almost directionless.  Well, the sound is not directionless but our ear/brain interface is unable to determine direction.  For this reason, crossed over low enough, one can place a sub just about anywhere without it calling attention to its location.  

The room/wife consideratons are, however, quite another issue.  For me to place my sub beside or behind my listening sofa would entail running cables under carpet which gets walked on (not good) or be ugly.  ("Do you really need those wires running across the room?").  

As you, no doubt saw from my system pictures, my Sunfire sub is behind my left main speaker.  It has both an active and passive radiator.  The active faces inward, across the front wall and toward the center and the passive points in the opposite direction.  When setting it up I was surprised that best response is 180 deg. out of phase.  My sub has a variable phase setting from 0 to 180.  For a while I thought 90 deg. was best but 180 is stronger.

Connections are from my power amp to the high level inputs on the sub. This for two reasons:  I have read that this setup is best for matching subs to mains, and I only have one set of outputs on my preamp.  Just for comparison, I tried a  Y connection at the  power amp inputs to the low level inputs on the sub but for some reason this resulted in a very ugly hum.  Either the pre or power amp did not like this setup.  

I am not perceiving an issue with integrating the sub with the mains, I would just like it to be a little tighter.  I think this is simply an issue with the quality of the sub itself.  I think Bob Carver uses a class D amp in his subs and while the Sunfire True Sub is no slouch it is certainly not the caliber of my Canalis Cambrias.  Speaking of which, I think you mentioned in a prior post you were not familiar with the Cambrias.  The Canalis speakers are a product of Spiral Groove.  They are designed by Joachim Gerhard who used to manufacture the German Sonics Alegra speakers.  Joachim has now joined Alan Perkins at Spiral Groove.  The Canalis speakers are virtually the same as Joachim's Sonics speakers but manufactured from bamboo plywood with tweaks to the crossovers.  You can see the whole Canalis line here: http://www.canalisloudspeakers.com/loudspeakers.php

The Sunfire was originally purchased for my home theater back when I had a Vandersteen 2W for the music system.  For some inexplicable reason I sold the Vandy woofer.  One of my larger buy/sell mistakes.  The 2W's mate very well with monitors and small towers.

Two of my obsessions in listening are imaging and detail.  I have found that monitors and narrow tower speakers do this best.  The Cambrias are basically a couple of monitors in a tall box.  The drawback is, of course, they don't move quite enough air.  Hence my use of the sub.  

All things considered, I think my best setup would be two small to medium size subs.  I've been looking at the Rel T5i an T7i. The 5's are a little short on power but given my listening habits they may be enough.  They probably would not work for your large orchestral productions, but then you always have room A for that.

Best,
Harry

Hi Chris and Harry,
I worked on the mods to the arm yesterday, but had to leave for dinner with the family before listening. -That's today, and I'll get back about my impressions later on.
I found out that the spring I've been using is a double, and was worried about using a shorter I-beam, as I also traded in my original magnesium arm for an updated one from Bruce which is heavier. -Got a good deal by the way!
So, I decided to try adding a third spring to my homebrew I-beam, my cartridge being fairly low compliance and mc.
 I had a problem with the new wand. The phono connectors are slightly loose. -They slide a bit. Should I pinch them down to get them tighter? I don't want to crush these little connectors, because that's happened before with a different wand and connectors. -A big mess to fix.
-On to woofers. My Wisdom speaker system uses two woofer cabinets crossed over at 120hz. I suppose that because they cross over so high, the designer recommends placing the front face of each one even with the dipole line sources.
One advantage with the electronic crossover is that I can adjust the volume at the lower end (20 hz and below), the volume at the crossover point, and the output of the woofer and dipoles separately. This is handy on certain recordings, but no remote control of any of this; just 4 attenuators per channel.
Cheers and thanks in advance for comments and sage advice,
John

Hi Harry I wanted to touch on something you said earlier.

My sub is crossed over at about 45 - 50 hz, but I don’t run the mains through the sub crossover. I run them full range. Canalis says they are only 3 db down at 39 cycles. I keep the sub volume dialed down quite a bit. I’m not looking for boom, boom, just a nice foundation. The sub is a Sunfire True that has enormous power but is not quite as tight as I would prefer. Been thinking about a Rel, but that’s down the priority list. I did have to dial down the sub after my tweaks and once I got the VTA right.

I have the exact same objective in my room 2 Harry, meaning just filling in the bottom octave. I have My Quad 57’s running full off the Music Reference amp. Positioned in the room as they are in the system pic, they are good to about 55hz. I have two Dynaudio subs which kick in at 60hz. They receive a separate direct input from the preamp (happens to be an AI - no remote ! ) in that room.

Wanted to mention, more of a general comment from my experiences. I have spoken with a number of sub manufacturers over the years the earliest, many moons ago was Dr.Hsu, and the most recent Rythmik Audio, a little over a year ago about the use of one sub in a room. They have all told me the same thing and my own room setup in B prior to going to dual subs was one large one; my experiences confirm it as well.

For 2 channel music nearfield placement is best if crossing over low. The sub is positioned ....if and if the room, wife, boundaries permit it..... beside or behind your listening position. It may seem unorthodox but your sub will work at a fraction of the effort it needs when it is across the room. Just set the phase at 180. An easy way to determine if the phase is correct. Put on music with bass, put your hand on the nearfield sub - you can feel the sub pulse and determine if it is in sync with the bass you are hearing at your listening position with the main speakers bass. very obvious with this technique - if it is out of phase.

When I had one sub in that room, and had people over, I would camouflage the nearfield sub and have them tell me where the bass notes were coming from. They would point to some spot over behind the Quad speakers. They found it hilarious when I told them the notes were coming from the box that their glass was resting on, next to them.

Having brought in the Dynaudio subs I will say that anyone that is thinking of using two subs across a good sized room - I would for myself insist in making sure the sub design comes with a remote for the different controls especially Db gain. Music even within the same genres is mastered at varying gain levels of bass. The subs I use have 4 presets that can be used.
Cheers Chris

Frogman
re: Torquing of bolts. I own a few torque wrenches, big ones for auto + the mini torque wrenches we can use for this audio hobby. The issue I have with them is that the torque settings for these random bolts are meant for the nut/bolt, and not the part that they are holding in. The people who sell us these bolts have no idea what we are screwing them into. 
So along with what you were saying, there is this torque wrench in my head for this tonearm that has three settings - loose, snug and tight. I have never had anything go "loose" on the snug setting. But did crack the end cap many years ago on the tight setting. The most important bolt settings imo, are those that set the distance gap for the VTA bearing block.

***********************
re:Cleaning robot.
I keep seeing these things in the flyers that come to the house. If I brought in that cleaning robot, turned it on and and let it go on our main floor I think I would have two different reactions, especially if a big purpose of the cleaning is to vacuum up the dog hairs. .

If my daughters RCA Victor dog "Lucky" was visiting, (half Mexican/half English) Chihuahua / Jack Russell mix. He wouldn't stop chasing and yapping at the thing. A very loving attention craving dog, but when he barks, he doesn't stop and it can get annoying. He also sheds like crazy but otherwise a good watch dog. Warns me when I am home alone, if the Kids and wife are within 200 feet from the house and approaching.

With Koaltar our black Lab, its the opposite reaction. He has not been running with me with over winter as I run on a treadmill, so he has put on a few pounds - probably gone from 76 to 80lbs. He would probably just lay in the middle of the floor and let the robot keep bouncing off of him like he does with Lucky. Oh the black hairs... and the main floor is a cream colored ceramic floor.  

If one could put two Koaltars beside ones listening chair, you would have significant damping taking place. Maybe even enough to require a need to change out a leaf spring. :^)

The hobby shop has the foot long gleaming white I beams. Was trying to imagine what the cat would be thinking if she got a look at it.
  
Curious to found out how John's stock 2 spring I Beam, compares to his modded I beam using the Mag wand.
Cheers

Good memory, Chris. This was my post from 4+ (!) years ago:

++++ I have constructed an I beam (balsa wood) that uses a leaf spring from one of the regular ET I beams which allows me to to move the counterweights up to 6 inches from the spindle; although not the 7 inches that I implied. With my cartridges which are either medium compliance Vandenhuls or high compliance MM’s, the improvement in bass weight and detail is significant. One other way to experiment with moving the weight further from the spindle is by using the threaded brass weights on the threaded rod that secures the regular lead weights to the counterweight holder. This allows the weight to be further back, and effectively "extending" the I beam.

Speaking of the I beams, no one has mentioned the importance of experimenting with leaf springs of different compliances. I have three ET (plastic) I beams, each of a different compliance. The lower the compliance the more tightly focused the sound is. Higher compliance springs make the sound a little "bloomier", with an all around easier presentation. ++++

Since adding a pair of REL subs to my system I have revised my findings somewhat since, as has been pointed out, moving the weight back TOO MUCH can cause other problems. On balance, I love what the REL’s are doing for the sound, but with the extended I-beam I find it more difficult to integrate them in a way that sounds natural. I am currently not using it.

So glad to see all the recent activity on this thread. What a great tonearm this is! I never cease to be amazed at the genius behind this design and the fabulously natural sound that it yields. Chris should be commended for his excellent tutorials and advise. A couple of comments on recent discussions:

As was recently pointed out by Chris, as with the setup of a fine musical instrument, it’s all about resonances. With that in mind, I have found that a worthwhile setup detail is making sure that the bolts, adjustment and otherwise, and especially the bolts that secure the two end caps are not too tight which, if too tight, can actually deform the spindle and cause biding at the start and end of its trajectory in the manifold. But beyond that extreme what I am talking about (and I don’t think I am imagining this) is that when all the bolts are tightened "just enough" and with close to equal torque the sound seems to take on even more of that wonderful "this is what live music sounds like" quality that this arm gives like no other in my (limited) experience.

Chris, on a completely unrelated topic: you made me chuckle at the mention of your dog not being allowed downstairs. My beagle/lab shedding machine is not allowed in my studio, nor upstairs where the bedrooms are; although pet hair seems to find its way everywhere, even where the critters are not allowed. After being intrigued by these gizmos and not taking the plunge due to skepticism about whether they would actually work, we finally bought a (now two) robotic vacuums. It is not an exaggeration to say that they have been life changers. This one, which is actually one of the least expensive ones does an amazing job of keeping the floors where the pooch roams clean between full house cleanings, and consequently all other areas and surfaces stay noticeably cleaner as well. It was also a lot of fun watching Artie’s reaction to his new mechanical bud. Highly recommended. Regards.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N9P4NH5/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I remember Frogman and Banquo363 trying longer beams - but they made them out of wood so they didn't work out. The I beam needs to live and breathe (resonate/vibrate) like the cart, and should be matched to the vibrating cart. More springs on the I Beam make it firmer less compliant. so match it to a less compliant cart. This is what makes the ET2 unique over all other tonearms. Put it another way all other tonearms are 2d, compared to the ET2 with this added dimension; becomes 3d. Pro reviewers never figured this part out; being able match this tonearm to any cart that exists.

Whatever the length of the I Beam ...

Physics and our childhood memories, say the absolute best teeter totter ride is when both friends are of equal or close to each other in weight; and BOTH are sitting on the seat. Moving the weight forward of the seat for one of them, to balance unequal weights, and the ride is never as good.

So whatever the length of the I Beam ... I would be setting up (cutting) the longer modded I beam so the weights rest at the end of the plank just like the cartridge on the armtube side.

Very easy to test that one out.

Hey Chris,
You did some good research.
I was fortunate to have a large hobby shop in my town, and just brought the original I-beam with me to compare sizes. A micrometer might be useful if you order online, or wait for Bruce's run.
Yes, Bruce told me that he liked my modification, and admitted that sales were up since this thread was resurrected. He said that he had serious size constraints, based on the tables in production at the time, and would have made his I-beam longer if it weren't for this.
I forgot to ask whether the carbon fiber made any difference, but I doubt it's critical.
I'm going to experiment over the weekend with adding extra springs to my I-beam,
without any damping fluid in the trough. 
John