I promised to post periodically on my 2nd pair of Elrogs, so here it is. One of the replacement tubes failed today unfortunately. The past week that channel would go silent sporadically and then sound would return. When I turned the amplifier on today the tube in that mono block didn't illuminate, it was dead. Very disappointing to report this, but that's the reality. I put in my EML XLS and they are just cruising along as usual.
I had the highest hope for the Elrog ER 300 given there superb sound. I have to realize that the Elrog just may not be the right tube for the Coincident Frankenstein. The EML and Takatsuki in terms of reliability are the better match. The EML is a very robust tube and appears to be ideal for this particular amplifier. Mine are 3 years old and test exactly as they did the first day I got them. They are sounding excellent right now, just not quite as good as the Elrogs which were near magical.
With all factors considered the EML XLS is going to be my "work horse go to" 300b. It just seems made for the Frankenstein's operating parameters with its rugged tube internal construction and higher current capabilities. People using the Elrog is DACs or different amplifiers may hopefully have success with these tubes. Well I took my chance with this special tube but apparently it wasn't meant to be.
Charles, |
Sorry, meant their (not there) superb sound.
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Well, I willingly acknowledge The risk with this different type of 300b variant and proceeded with both eyes fully open. Other Frankenstein owners may have a better outcome with a newer batch of Elrogs, tough to say. It's such an exceptionally good sounding tube in my amplifier that I wanted so badly for it to be reliable long term. I informed George(tubesusa) he'll follow up with me. These are very expensive tubes and they have to offer long term durability to make the high cost worthwhile,
Hi Scifi,
Takatsuki vs EML XLS,
I really enjoy and cherished both of them over a 3 year period. This is such a true example of individual taste and probably system synergy as well. I listen to the EML XLS more often, it has a "bit" more dynamic authority and scale and is organic and communicates emotion effectively. The Takatsuki is very organic, a "bit" lighter in presentation and very refine in character, maybe a "bit" sweeter. Nitpicking aside both are true reference standard 300b tubes and simply excellent sounding in my system
I suspect most 300b aficionados might prefer the Takatsuki say 55 to 45 from a sample size group of 100 (pure speculation I admit). I give a modest edge to the EML XLS for its added punch and open large scale sound in my system. As I have implied, you couldn't possibly go wrong with either tube. They both have proven track records of reliability, I can attest to that.
Charles, |
Update,
It has been suggested to me from a very trusted source that the Frankenstein amplifier would benefit in changing the cathode resistor value from 1000 ohms to 1200 ohms. This is said to lessen the stress on the cathode when the amplifier is powered up (reducing turn on surge) . I was told this simple swap will result in significantly longer tube life by stressing the 3oob tube less with a lower initial surge upon turning on the amplifier. I was informed this will benefit "all" 300b tubes not just the Elrog. Another suggestion was regulating the AC wall voltage range to keep within 115-120 volts. The cathode resistor change is highly recommended from this source.
Given the cost of these tubes (all premium level 300bs) this simple and inexpensive fix seems wise, I'm going to do it. I was also told that this modification won't change the sound character of the amplifier. I will report my findings once I complete this task.
Charles, |
Hi Jetrexpro,
You have much hands on experience with parts and modifications (along with Grannyring and . Do you have any particular recommendations for cathode resistors?
Thanks,
Charles,
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Hi Jet, The resistor needed is 1,2K ohms/10 watts. Yes, as you say raising the resistance(slightly in this case) lowers the "turn on" stress on the 300b.I'm looking forward to doing this and will see what happens. George contacted me this morning and said I'll have a replacement sent in about 3 weeks. As usual he's right on top of things (utterly supportive). I was told the brand of resistor isn't particularly important for this application. But I figure may as well go high quality, good parts always seem to make a difference even if only subtle sometimes.
Charles, |
Jet and Al,
Following my earlier post I spoke with George and he also suggested a larger value watt rating resistor would be fine even though the amplifier uses a 10 watt cathode resistor. 20 watts it will be! Thanks gentlemen for valued input.
Brf,
You make a good point but I am determined to see this through with the resistor suggestion. The Elrog is wonderful sounding and I really enjoy listening to them. If the Elrog fails again despite the resistor swap then that's it for me and I'm back to EML and Takatsuki. If a 5-10 dollar part can prolong the lifespan and reliability of 1500.00 dollar tubes I'm willing to give it a try. I accept the potential risk and will blame no one if things don't work out.
Charles,
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Jet,
I'm going to use the Mundorf wire wound resistors,1.2K ohms/25 watts, 2.50 USD each. There weren't many choices in these higher watt range. Lots of choices in the lower .75 -5 watt range. |
Tom,
You can get them from Parts connexion.com, they're in Canada.
Bill,
Your use of the PS 10 is a very good decision.
I'm glad you're able to fulfill your goal of hiking in the mountains of Tennessee. Six pounds of belly fat in a week? That's some serious hiking, keep it up.
Charles,
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Bill,
Man, I'm so happy you and your wife reached your goals and are able to live out your dreams. This is what good planning and determination lead to. I know how good it feels to exercise and get back in physical shape, there's no downside to this approach. Keep on exploring those mountain trails Bill.
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Hi Joe,
Hopefully the cathode resistor swap will be the answer, only time will tell. The EML XLS is a terrific tube and the past two nights they have provided me with very enjoyable listening sessions without question.
Although in direct comparison I'd choose the Elrog, it does not by any measure embarrass the EML. The Elrog is subtly better in certain areas that are noticeable at this very high level. The EML is a bit more dynamic (small margin) and has a very lively energetic presentation with very gone tonality and timbre. The Elrog is a bit more organic and as you note nuanced. Bottom line the Frankenstein sounds really good with these two tubes as well as the refined Takatsuki. The EML is a superb value given its performance/price ratio and its excellent durability.
George Lenz told me recently that some long term owners have reach 40,000 hours of use with the EML XLS and they still are testing like new. Now that's impressive!
Charles, |
Hi Larry,
I had the EML mesh 300b in my Frankenstein for about a 3 week period a few years ago, Its sonic character was just as you described, very open, airy yet delicate and nuanced. I really liked that tube. Jet is right however, it didn't last long in my amplifier for the reasons Jet stated. The EML XLS is right at home in the Frankenstein by comparison as it's much more rugged and robust. For more conservative run 300b amplifiers the EML mesh plate 300b wound be one to strongly consider in my opinion. This tube is a "true" mesh design unlike the Sophia "mesh plate" versions.
Charles.
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Hey ddriverman,
If your Berning amplifier runs conservatively your Elrogs should be fine.
Congratulations and good luck. |
My good friend Jeff (Jwm) installed the new cathode resistors in my Frankenstein amplifier yesterday and they didn't change the sound of the amplifier at all. That's a relief, now I'm waiting for the replacement Elrogs from George (tubesusa.con). He said they're coming soon.
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I've installed my replacement Elrogs in my amplifier today . Needless to say that they sound divine. I hope the cathode resistor swap is the answer for tube longevity in the Frankenstein MK II. Time will tell.
Charles, |
Mk,
I haven't noticed that with my amplifier thus far.
I thought I have another bad Elrog replacement tube a few days ago, no sound from one mono block. I removed it and use my EML,still no sound, uh oh. I had it check out by a friend who is an excellent tech. Turns out the recently installed cathode resistor had a bad solder joint. This was corrected and the Elrogs are working fine and sounding fabulous.
Charles, |
Bill (Brownsfan) I hope all is well with you, haven't heard from you in quite sometime on this forum. I sent you an email about 2 weeks ago. Don't get lost in the scenic hills of TN. Charles, |
Hi Bill,
I'm very glad that you are doing so well and indulging in your hiking passion 😊
No I didn't get your reply email, I am very interested in your in your thoughts on the two speakers. Bill the SR fuses are something quite special. The many positive comments about them are legit. If you only want to try just one, put it in the CSL. The Red is excellent but the Black is a step above. They're terrific tweaks for the CSL.
Charles, |
Bill,
With the kind of hiking schedule you're following you must really be whipping yourself into seriously good physical fitness.
Keep it up! |
Bill,
I don't think that you will regret that purchase. Let me know what you think of it.
Charles, |
Bill,
My CSL has only a single 3 amp slo blo in the rear panel. 7 amps is really a Hugh value. The Frankenstein uses only one 3 amp fuse per mono block.
Charles, |
One thing for sure, a 1 amp fuse makes far more sense than a 7 amp fuse for a Line Stage. Why would the CSL need a larger fuse than the power amplifier (Frankenstein )that uses a 3 amp rating?
Charles, |
Hi Bill,
My CSL is an earlier model than yours. I bought mine new in Oct 2009 and very likely Israel has made changes since then is my guess.
Charles, |
Bill,
I believe that you'll hear differences from the stock fuses very early on. It may seem amusing given it's a fuse with its thin wire filament but it does really improve with burn in time. As always Bill I'm interested to know your listening impressions. Once you have it in awhile reverse the fuse direction. They are directional for certain.
Charles, |
Hello David,
It's really good to hear from you.
I understand you decision regarding the Elrogs, it's a practical conclusion to reach. I love their sound so much I was resolute in giving them another opportunity. I did do the recommended cathode resistor swap (only 5.00 dollars for the required 1 pair) and so far, so good. I can report that the resistors don't alter the sonic character at all to the best of my hearing ability. I've put Synergistic Research Black fuses in the amplifiers with excellent results.
I've not forgotten your very enthusiastic praise of the Coincident Statement power cables. Well it appears that the IC and SC are every bit as impressive. I respect your opinion of these products David.
I see that Arthur Salvatore is reviewing the power cables on his website site. I'm keeping them on my radar for certain. I'm still using and enjoying the older (6 years ) Coincident power cords.
Charles, |
Mundorf not Munford, darn auto spell! |
Markus,
Have you discussed with George the option to change your cathode resistor from the stock 1K ohms to the recommended 1.2K ohms value. They are said to reduce the initial power surge (current) stress on the output tube. The Elrog engineers believe that this is issue with the Frankenstein amplifier. I've done this modification, only timewill tell if this is the answer.
Charles, |
Calloway,
I had a borrowed pair of Sophia RP in my amplifier for several weeks a few years back and they were very good sounding although not as good as the Takatsuki. So what you write is high praise for the Psvane W.E. Replica 300b. I use W.E. Replica 101D my Line Stage and it's a superb sounding tube unquestionably. I've heard their 845 and it was also superb.
Charles, |
Hi Joe,
I don't hear a difference in sonic character at all and I was really listening intently for any changes. So, none that I have noticed.
Markus, for a tech this is very simple and straight forward. The resistors are right there and very easy to remove and replace. It took my friend 5 minutes per mono block to complete the job. Fortunately the Frankenstein is easy to work with,ample space and few parts (very uncluttered ). I used Munford 1.2K ohms/25 watts, 2.50 dollars each(1 resistor per mono block ).
Charles, |
David,
I use the Black fuses in the CSL and also my DAC, it's wonderful in all of my components.
Charlles, |
Hello Raquel,
I appreciate your comments and agree with them. I and other contributors to this thread have on several occasions written impressions comparing the premium level of 300b tubes. It is recognized that preferences among this esteemed group of tubes vary exactly for the reasons you cite. Though I expressed a preference for the Elrog, I've made it clear that the Takatsuki and EML XLS are truly excellent in their own right. Given the variables of amplifiers, system configurations and accessories /tweaks, no tube can be declared the absolute best for all listeners.
By the way Raquel I miss your insightful comments from the good old days on this site. Welcome back.
Charles, 😊 |
Quick update,
So far so good in regard to the cathode resistor swap in the Coincident Frankenstein. The Elrogs are hanging in there and continue to sound superb. Perhaps this is the answer for long term Elrog tube life, time will tell.
Charles, |
Hello Markus,
My Elrogs have about 220 hours of use at this point.
Charles, |
Markus,
I'm optimistic and hope that your comment proves prophetic over the course of time.
Charles, |
Hi Cal,
As you noted I did the amplifier cathode resistor modification and I’m on my 3rd pair of the Elrogs. One tube has recently failed and the other is working fine. My conclusion is that the Elrog 300b despite its superb sound isn’t a good choice for the Coincident Frankenstein MK II. I’d recommend the Takatsuki and EML XLS as better companions. The EML XLS especially is an ultra robust workhorse tube that seems ideally suited for the Frankenstein’s particular demands. This tube is rugged, exceptionally reliable and sounds truly excellent with this amplifier.
In absolute terms the Elrog is a bit better sounding and has a "more" organic character. However the "bulletproof" EML XLS makes beautiful, dynamic and very engaging music without question. This is a top echelon 300b tube in my opinion. In the proper amplifier the Elrog is brilliant but it is seemingly too delicate for long term use in the Frankenstein. This is my conclusion and others may disagree.
Charles, |
Bill,
If you ever consider a back up pair 300bs the XLS is a very good option. George Lenz told me that some older pairs of these tubes are approaching 40,000 hours of use per some of his long term customers.
I can believe that, this is a very stout output power tube.
Charles, |
Hello Bill,
It's surly conceivable that your PS Audio 10 could provide a definite positive effect. I gave it my best shot but with the 3rd failure I recognize that enough is enough. Your fate may be different from mine.
Good Luck,
Charles, |
Thomas Mayer says that the current Elrogs have been substantially improved and is backing it up with a 1 year warranty. I may at some future date revisit this 300b tube given the extended warranty period, I'm in no hurry and am currently really enjoying the EML XLS which seems to be bullet proof with my Frankenstein.
To the best of my knowledge the Millard GZ37 is a drop in replacement rectifier tube. I've used it for nearly 2 years and have not encountered any problems so far. ecx123 I hope you are enjoying the Frankenstein and the CSL pairing as much as I am.
Charles |
I wish you good luck with the revised Elrog 300b. I hope their reliability will now equal the superb sound quality. Charles |
The one drawback I could cite for the 300b is that the very upper tier examples are expensive. Takatsuki 1800-2000 USD per pair, Elrog 1500 USD pr. The EML XLS is reasonably priced relatively speaking and especially given its superb performance. Also based on reports of older XLS tubes used heavily over the years, their lifespan approaches 40,000 hours. In normal use that represents "many" years of use. This is a significant factor when initial cost is considered. It is a wonderful tube in my humble opinion. Every time I power up my amplifiers (which is often) I just appreciate the quality of sound presentation (and their contribution) in my room. Charles |
Tubesnstats, I've tried many 300bs but not the original/vintage Western Electric (just too expensive to fool with). I did try the reissue Western Electric but it wasn't impressive in my amplifier. As much as I enjoyed the superb Takatsuki I must say that the Elrog surpassed it in my system. The EML XLS and Takatsuki battle tit for tat as both have many virtues. I don't know how much stress your preamplifier places on the 300b compar
ed to power amplifier duties as required in my system. If the reliability issue is truly solved then the Elrog is one of the
finest tubes ever produced IMHO. Charles |
It’s good to hear that the current production Elrogs may have gotten the QC issues properly identified and addressed. As posted early in this thread I had the initial run of the Elrogs 300b and suffered three tube failure episodes.I am glad others are currently experiencing no failures thus far.
Charles |
