Gary
Unfortunately part of the problem is Elrog has much more demand for their tubes than they ever had anticipated. They just aren't able to keep up with all of the requests, this is really a small specialty German tube making manufacturer. Gary. Try tubesusa.com, this was my source for Elrogs and EML. Very good customer service.
Charles, |
This again illustrates what I've always known. No matter how impress one person may be with a particular product there will always be someone else who finds it disappointing. It's just the way things go with subjectivity issues.
Charles, |
The longer I've live with and listen to the Elrog ER 300b the more I recognize how wonderful this tube is. The past few weeks I've been able to listen to quite a bit of music and it has been a truly enjoyable time. The sole purpose of Elrog it seems is superior emotive provocation. They simply connect me thoroughly and deeply into the musical soul. I've sat at home and played CDs all the way through and then replay them. I listen to songs three times in a row, it's that pleasurable. These tubes offer such a natural, fully developed and realistic tone/overtones that I'm just completely pulled into the listening experience. They really do everything in an excellent manner across the musical board.
I was at such an exalted level of contentment with my EML and Takatsuki, I'm actually surprised the Elrogs have taken my music listening to a higher plane( to this degree). As these tubes accumulate playing hours they just continue to improve. This is so satisfying because straight from the box they sound exceptional. I truly hope that the Elrogs will work in the vast majority of 300b amps as well as they do in my amplifier. This has been a sublime experience for me. |
I'm not a technical person and don't claim to be. Everything I've read up to this point has stated the Elrog is a direct replacement for the 300b as they matched the filament current and voltage requirements. I accepted this as fact and had no logical reason to doubt it. If there are certain amplifiers(for what ever reason) that can't use the Elrog this should be made known(thanks Dmarkov). I suspect they may be a minority. Based on a goggle search I did to read other Elrog user's experiences, it seems the vast majority have had positive outcomes.
At this point with this relatively new tube, more information will be gathered and some level of compatibility will be known over time. I would never expect that everyone will always prefer the Elrog over other worthy 300b competitors. There are simply too many different ears and amplifiers/systems for that to be the case.
Charles, |
Lak,
They're 1099.00 USD pair. I bought mine at tubesusa.com. Demand seems greater than the current supply at this time.
Charles, |
Wyan001,
That's an interesting comparison of those two very different tubes. I use the W.E. Replica 101D in my line stage and it's superb in that function. It's a thrill having both of these tubes in the same signal path working together.
Charles, |
A few people who have compared the Vintage W.E. 300b and Takatsuki say they're very close. The Takatsuki more extended bass and the W.E. a tad more midrange magic. The cost of the W.E. is so astronomical that I had no interest in trying to get a pair. I appreciate the finer things in life, but only to a certain point. When cult status is reached things can get out of hand. I can live with the Frankenstein/Elrog pairing very happy the rest of my life. This is simply pure musical joy.
Charles, |
Bill(Brownsfan),
I received an interesting email today from audiogon member Mark who recently got a pair of the Elrog ER 300b tubes. He loaned these tubes to Israel Blume to try in his system. They both feel that these tubes were just a subtle improvement and did not justify their high cost. Israel, Mark and I agree upon the substantial improvement rendered by the Pavane W.E. replica 101D tubes in the Coincident line stage. I find the Elrog just as impactful (at the very least) so while I obviously respect their impression, I will respectfully disagree. As more people listen to the Elrogs it will be interesting to note their impact according to various listeners. Israel does not find the Elrog 300b upgrade that he does the Replica 101D in his components. For me, both were major and welcome additions in my system.
Charles |
Cal,
For Israel I'm pretty certain it would be the Pavane Black glass version. I Often agree with Israel in most cases regarding the sound of different items and components, but not in this case. The truth is that some will share his view that the improvement is only subtle, and some will share my view that the Elrog is a significant upgrade. |
Hi Jordan(Germanboxers),
Jordan, your initial impression sure equals mine! Emotion is the key word. Believe me they will continue to improve with additional hours of use. These are superior sounding 300b replacements and I'm happy they work in your Audion amp. I suspect "most"(heed Dmarkov's warning) 300b amps will mate well with the excellent Elrog tubes.
Charles |
Jordan,
Fingerpalnting is a CD I've owned for years and yet still listen to it very regularly, I'm glad you enjoy the wonderful music. I would also recommend"Parker's Mood" this features McBride, Roy Hargrove (trumpet) Stephen Scott (piano) playing the music of Charlie Parker. I believe you'll really enjoy/appreciate this recording as well.
Jordan I don't want to hijack this thread but how does your Audion Golden Dream differ from the Audion Black Shallow sonically/musically? You can answer this on my system page if you don't mind. Im always interested in your listening impressions.
Thanks,
Charles, |
Hi Bill,
I hope tube to tube variability isn't the explanation. Elrog does extensive testing to ensure high quality control standards. I'd not want it to be the case that it's a crap shoot of getting a good pair at their premium cost. I'd be more accepting of it being a matter plain old subjectivity. Israel and I would probably agree on 90% on what we hear, so this may just fall into the 10% where we'd differ. I can easily live with that circumstance. I'm listening right now and the music reproduction is beautiful, tactile and sublime. I'll always call it the way I hear it and my natural response to it.
Charles, |
Bill,
Our music taste is different yet the Elrog conveys the essence of these indivual genres wonderfully . Germanboxers has a system of entirely different components and yet his impressions are as enthusiastic as ours. In the end I just acknowledge there will be inevitable differences of opinion. |
Bhchung,
I concur with your comparison/results. The Takatsuki isn't polite in my system, in fact it's quite dynamic. The Elrog is however more dynamic,vivid and livelier sounding in my system. The Elrog is said to have a lower "amplifying factor" compared to other 300b tubes. Yet when actually listening to them the sound is more authoritative, bigger/bolder(in a realistic sense) with superior nuance retrieval. I'd expect the Orangutan to be an excellent match with your Line Magnetic amplifier. |
Jet,
That's the beauty of a forum such as this one. I know a few people took a chance and bought Elrogs, EMLs and Takatsuki based on(at least to some extent) my very positive comments. I feel obligated to report problems when they arise. Elrog said the earlier reliability issues had been solved, so I took a chance. With the replacement Elrogs I will post on their reliability as times goes on.
Charles, |
Tmmvinyl,
You have the Coincident Dragon and the Frankenstein, nice. That must be a sonically interesting comparison between those two amplifiers. I know that Arthur Salvatore did a recent comparison of the three Coincident amplifiers on his website. I believe it was about two months ago.
Charles, |
Jeff,
It would be enlightening if he can measure plate voltage and other fundamental parameters.
Charles, |
Sorry to hear about that. I suffered no damage fortunately. I put my EMLs in the amplifier and have music again. If the replacement Elrogs fail I'm just going to stick with EML and Takatsuki. With Elrog's long history of making military spec tubes in Europe these "audio" tubes should be no problem to pull off(one would think). It is such a fine sounding tube but that's not enough if you can not depend on them to last. The EML so far for me seem bulletproof in comparison. Time will tell. I must say that the EML XLS is sounding "very good" right now. The Elrog is even better but it certainly doesn't embarrass the EML.
Charles, |
Jeff,
George is only going to use the modified tubes from this point going forward, so these will be my replacement Elrogs(when they're ready). The resistor swap option seems simple once I know which one to change(you think Doug could help?). I'm very encouraged and hopeful.
Charles, |
I find it fascinating that changing the cathode resistor value from 1K ohm to 1.2 K ohm has such an impact, that's all it takes? Almarg, where are you my friend? LOL.
Charles, |
Israel blume responded to an earlier email today. He says the plate voltage of the Frankenstein is 400 votes, he says the heat dissipation is measured at 28 watts. He said changing the cathode resistor from 1 to 1.2 k ohms is technically okay but in his opinion will result in sonic deterioration. He further said that in the past four years he has had virtually no failures using the Pavane and Shuguang 300b tube. He Points out how cool running the Frankenstein amplifier is, he attributes this to using over Spec capacitors transformers and resistors.
I really appreciate Israel's response today, I can agree with him on the cool running Frankenstein and the durability and longevity of using Shuguang as well as EML tubes. I've decided to leave the stock resistor in place, and just wait for the tweaked/modified version of the Elrocg tube and go from there.
Charles, |
Hi Tmmvinyl,
My Frankenstein MK II was bought new in 2009, I believe this incarnation has only the HT fuse. No, the amplifier did not blow a fuse. I put in the EML XLS as replacements and everything is working and sounding fine.
Charles. |
Jet,
I am a bit confused to some extent. Israel says the Frankenstein MK II is a "easy on the tube" design, heat dissipation is 25 watts and overspec transformers that operate at only 30% capacity. I can say that the amplifier is cool to the touch. The power transformer is only warm to touch when left on the entire day (never hot). I didn't have tube durability problems with my former Shuguang black treasures.i could have sworn at one time Israel said the Frankenstein ran relatively modest plate voltages(I could be mistaken). Bottom line, the amp sure sounds superb when good quality 300bs are used.
If the cathode resistor change settles the problem then this is very good
news. Matthias I'm assuming there's no adverse affect on the circuit (or other amplifier parameters) with this resistor change.
Charles, |
Jet,
I can't disagree with your assessment based on the numbers provided. It would explain my strong attraction to the EML XLS in this amplifier. I'm very curious to see/hear how the modified Elrogs turn out. If they can withstand the amp's demands and hold up I'll be thrilled. Sonically speaking Grade wise the EML = A~ compared to Elrog= A+.
Charles, |
Hello Al,
Thanks for your participation and insight. At this stage I will patiently wait for the new batch of modified Elrog tubes that presumably are better suited for the Frankenstein amplifier. Al, I know your VAC REN 300b amplifier is considered a highly tuned design that's said to be tough on the 300b. Are certain tubes selected/screened by Kevin Hayes to match the amplifier's demands? The Pavane/Shuguang black glass that Israel uses very successfully is a good sounding tube but not in same tier as the Elrog.
Charles, |
Hi Matthias,
This been educational, all I want is the superb sound the Franks/Elrog provide.lsrael said the resistor change you recommend will definitely lower the plate voltage but also result in sonic degradation. Wish you two could somehow work together (fantasy I know).
Charles, |
Matthias,
I do recognize that the Elrog is an excellent tube. The issue is the parameters/operating points of my particular amplifier. I'm very confident that I'll get a replacement pair that will work fine(now that the issue has been identified) and allow me to continue to enjoy their wonderful sound. Again I appreciate your expertise and input.
Charles, |
Al,
Yes, that type of selection/testing for suitable tubes for the VAC is what Elrog will do for certain amplifiers to match the operation points. This to ensure a successful 300b and amp match. This is a smart move. Al your system must sound really special with your recent changes. I only hear/read good comments about Herron components.Thanks for providing that thread, I miss Raquel's postings.
Charles, |
Matthia,
I do appreciate your good attitude and knowledge. I can't wait to get these new modified Elrogs, what a sound you all have developed. Thanks.
Charles, |
Jeff,
Yes, the problem has been discovered and competent people will correct it. George Lenz of tubesusa.com has been very responsive with me and in direct/frequent communication with Elrog, so I'm in good hands. They won't ship the new Elrogs until they've been fully tested at the specific needed parameters. That's fine with me. From this point onward people seeking Elrogs will be asked what amp are they using, this will ensure proper matching. I believe what I have experienced in this situation will help others.
Charles, |
Jet,
Wise observation and advice. |
Joe(Snopro)
Well you know my high regard for TAK and EML. The Elrog is very good "out of the box" and keeps improving with time. You may ultimately prefer the TAK in your system. In my case the Elrog was even more communicative of musical soul and emotion without sacrificing the good stuff of the other two tubes. For certain time will tell. Elrog just pushed "all" the right buttons in my system.
Charles, |
Joe,
I received a message from George this morning asking if I could have someone measure my amplifier's plate voltage. This may have preceded him contacting you. If he can do your Frankenstein himself that's ideal. I also greatly appreciate his efforts to solve this problem. Joe I look forward to seeing your results with George.
Charles, |
Fla,
Based on Matthias's favorable comments you're fine with the standard Elrog ER 300b.
Charles, |
Crubio
Other than the Elrogs I am not aware of any other tube that has been an issue for the Frankenstein amplifiers. Due to its thoriated filament different parameters were necessary for the Elrog 300b that deviate from the Western Electric standard.
Charles, |
Okay I see your point and that is a valid question.
Charles, |
Thanks Joe
Needless to say I am curious to learn the results.
Charles, |
Hi Al,
In your opinion given the values that George measured, do you feel these represent a high stress level on the 300b tube or more of a moderate level? The heat dissipation levels measured by George are higher than the 26 watts that Israel cited for the amplifier. Although 31 W seems well off the maximum of 39 or 40 W dissipation for the 300b. Is the plate voltage similar to your VAC Renaisance?
Thanks,
Charles, |
Al and Joe,
Thanks much! These measurement findings do suggest that the Elrog tube should be fine in the Frankenstein amplifier. Al your selected 300b tubes must be vefy rugged to tolerate the parameters in your amplifier and provide the durability and longevity they do I need to measure my wall outlet AC voltage to be sure that it is not excessive.
Charles, |
Bill and Al,
Good points. I think I'll just wait for my replacement Elrogs from George and go from there. What's the point in having premium tubes and degrading the sound with a variac.
Charles, |
Hi Al,
You raise a valid point regarding the narrow recommended range for AC power.For sake of argument do you believe using a variac and keeping the AC between say 115-120 to go "easier" on the Elrog 300b(to enhance tube life) is reasonable?
Thanks,
Charles, |
Matthias,
Thank you for that encouraging and reassuring post. I patiently and eagerly await receiving my replacement Elrog tubes from George. I believe this thread and your contributions have been helpful to quite a few here.
Charles, |
Joe,
My initial experience with George was three years ago when he sold me my pair of EML tubes. I was very impressed with his responsiveness and good attitude and I knew that customer service was very important to him. Well, he's done it again with his handling of the situation concerning the Elrog tube and various amplifiers, I give him a grade of A+!
Charles, |
I received my Elrog replacement tubes and I'm listening to them now. It's funny how much I enjoyed the EML XLS while waiting for the Elrogs. The Elrogs raise the holistic/presence factor from the EML's already high standard. Both are wonderfully dynamic and energetic with lively involvement. The Elrogs are more fluid, organic and provide just a bit more sense of 3 dimensional space, you are there factor. Beautiful natural tone!
As I've said before, it's a move from excellent to the sublime. Time and use will determine reliability and longevity merit. It nails the sound quality portion. George of tubesusa.com has been simply terrific during this period wih his service and support. Thank You.
Charles, |
According to Elrog my tubes were made to match the Frankenstein's operating parameters for an appropriate match. So we shall see, the sound is sheer organic beauty.
Charles, |
Hi Bill,
I hope you do. I'm convinced that the decision to have the tubes match an amplifier's operating parameters is a correct one. My replacement Elrogs are sounding splendid. Listening right now and it's heavenly. Only time will tell regarding durability.
Charles, |
George Lenz sure stood by me and other customers concerning the Elrog 300b. Bill did you get yours via True Audiophile? Well I hope who ever your vendor, they treat you appropriately. As you correctly acknowledge this is a superb sounding tube. I'm rooting for Elrog to get this tube right with the replacements such as mine. Larry, the Western Electric 300b reissues were very disappointing in my amplifier. EML XLS and Takatsuki were far superior sounding.
Charles,
Charles, |
Larry,
Our listening impressions of W.E. vs EML are similar, the W.E. reissue version is considerably more expensive despite its poorer sound quality. So it seems that durability is their best attribute. Last week my EML XLS pair were found to test identically to the results of 3 years ago when I got them new. They've had very frequent use in that 3 year period as well, so it appears they're likely to have commendable longevity. Larry you're correct, EML had problems with their initial offerings but were able to sort out and fix the problem. Now it's Elrog's turn to do the same. I'm cheering for their success. I'd be a shame for a tube that sounds this good to fail.
Charles, |
Bill,
If it's any consolation my Frankenst MK II (purchased 2009) is much older than yours. Fortunately I suffered no amplifier damage when the original Elrog went bad. I just popped in an EML and all was fine.
Charles, |
Hi Gary,
I'm not sure of what method of selection they utilized(existing tubes or new batch). My suspicion is new specific batch. I was assured my replacement Elrogs were specifically matched to the Frankenstein MK II operating parameters ( my original pair weren't matched in this manner).
Charles, |
