I hope no one was offended by my subtle Patent and Trademark humor :)
Mike |
I had planned to do just that. My EAR is not my only phono pre and I had planned to sell it but instead, just for fun, I decided to do all of Thorsten's upgrades, including Romy's air capacitors. I always did really like the EAR. However, in audiophile terms, it could not stand up to my Loesch style FET phono front end. The rebuild made it reasonably competitive with anything I've heard - different from the Loesch but still very good.
All that to say: that I recently scored a set of S&B stepups (Copper) from a guy in Switzerland who was also offering a set of S&B's 600R LCR modules. (Not the 10K set that was recently here on Audiogon). Instead of rebuilding the EAR again with the S&B stepups, I decided to build Thorsten's LCR RIAA phono design with E810F and D3A. I will post it to my system soon.
MIke |
I have read several of Raul's posts with great interest - even preserving his post about the best MM carts in my archive. I tried to open a dialog with him regarding his own phono pre some years back but he did not see fit to respond.
In this case, re the 834P, I must say that this is just his opinion. The 843P may have not worked in his system but that is no reason to slag it off once and for all. IIRC, someone responded to one of Raul's posts saying that Raul's choice of reference loudspeakers was rubbish - so to each his own. I was careful to report in my post above that my main phono is FET based, yet there are things about the XF step-up that I still like very much. I would be the last one to tell someone not to try something just because it didnt work for me - specs notwithstanding.
Gregm - I am only about 2 weeks away, I'll make sure to report...
Mike |
Thank you Raul, you are right I am a terrible liar :) I recall it took more than one email from me to elicit that response from you (which I admit I dont really remember).
So, has your incredible patented phono hit the street as a commercial product?
Mike (generally truthful :) |
Ok, I'll give this one more shot, because I not doing anything else at the moment :)
I have no doubt that Raul's phono is the greatest thing since sliced bread - I never said it wasnt. In fact some of Rauls technical claims sounded interesting enough that I asked about them out of curiosity. As I remember it, his initial post sounded as though he was interested in discussing technical information, as many people do on these forums. Again, IIRC, he invited people to correspond with him and then didnt answer my initial query.
I can respect that he is withholding his intellectual property, but to ask someone to buy an expensive phono stage, unheard, from someone who is unknown outside of a few posts on Audiogon is worse than facetious, its practically an insult. "I'll tell you where this fabulous bridge is located in Brooklyn - if you promise to buy it from me", LOL.
Now I am called a big liar and bad guy because I did not remember the entire exchange from two years ago - and of course, because I have disagreed with Emperor Raul, King of the MM about the 839. My feelings, they are hurting (ieee).
Dan-ed, I am interested, for my own edification: You said you did ALL of the mods to the 839. Does this mean that you completely rebuilt the PS, changed all or most of the power, signal and bypass caps as well as most of the resistors? BTW, such a mod will not fit in the original box. Did you try the recommended circuit changes, including the removal of the horrible MM/MC switch and volume pot? Did you try the tuning caps in the RIAA? they are a very interesting addition. I am interested to know if you did all of this and still think that the 839 is entry level?
Just so everyone is on the same page here: Adding used stepups to an 839 that someone already owns will generally cost less than $1000. The original poster asks if adding better step ups will make the EAR competitive with "higher end units"? He did not ask if it would make the EAR as good as $10K+ state-of the art units like Bolder or Walker's Reference or even the RAULOTRON. (There Raul, I have patented your name what will you do now??? HAHAHAHAH!!!)
I agree to disagree - some people think the modified 839 is great - I say above that it is not my #1 phono and I decided not to modify it further. What is there to argue about? I do greatly disagree with the pose that it is not worth bothering with because it is not state of the art which seems to be the point that some are making above.
Mike |
Yes, Dan that was my point - and a very clever answer BTW :) Once all, as in ALL, the mods are made, it is no longer the "834P" it is a new circuit based on the 834P. All of my comments about the 834P were plainly and explicitly based on the fully modified circuit.
Your pal Raul said, to quote: "... forget about the 834P ( and up-grades to it )". An extremely broad statement which you echoed by saying that you had tried ALL the mods, when you plainly had not.
Mike |
Thank you very much, I appreciate your politeness (really).
Mike |
That's true to a certain degree Paul, re apples and oranges; but Thorsten's list of mods is somewhat definitive. Afterwards you have a generic hi-end realization of the EAR circuit, somewhat akin to the way that 60's manufacturers made their own versions of the RCA manual RIAA circuit.
When the original poster asked about changing out the stepups, I assumed that he either had the skills to do so or was willing to have it done.
BTW: anyone thinking of applying ALL the mods, I think it would be easier to build from the circuit from scratch than work from the EAR board as I did.
Mike |
Hi Mark, some people philosophically dislike stepup transformers.
I was semi-convinced myself, some years ago when I went to a Loesch style front end = FET step up/tube/RIAA/tube as an upgrade from the a lightly modified EAR. From reading here, and elsewhere, it seems that all transistor units are considered current SOTA - yet many folks have recently sold some of the above SOTA units in favor of Doshi's Alaap - which has tubes and a SS fron end.
Although I considerd the Loesch marginally better in all "audiophile" parameters, I missed something I was getting from even the cheap XFs in the EAR. Note that some of what I missed is often referred to as phase artifacts by those who have decided to dislike XFs.
Distortion artifacts or not, I felt I lost some of the gestalt of faked/live sound - if that makes any sense. In other words, as a sometime musician, I know that stereo does not sound like real music - but has a "fake/real" sound of its own that I enjoy on its own merit.
I am looking forward to implementing the S&B stepups in my latest phono pre and compare it to the FET front end again. I think that any lack of current enthusiasm about the S&B stepups is based on the fact that they are no longer available to the DIY'er. If I could get a set of silver ones like Arthur's, at anything like a reasonable price, I would snap them up quickly.
Regards
Mike |
Dan you are right, making the FET/417A front end sound great is work - but not that hard. I had it measured and the RIAA cureve is extremely accurate. I'm sure Doshi has plenty to say on the matter, using the tubes he uses - I would assume that he has come up with a very clever implementation to get enough gain with 12AX/AT type tubes. I plan to hardwire the S&B XFs into my next project so an extra set of rcas is not an issue.
Mark, if you are willing to get your hands dirty, I would suggest building directly from Romy's final schematic and then selling your EAR when you are finished and satisfied. Not counting the stepups and NOS tubes, I'd bet that Romy's 834 version costs less than $300 in parts - definately less than $500. And most of that is in the power supply. |
Dan-ed, take a pill. I'm didn't mean to contradict you - I am just relating my DIY experience. I did not design my phono amp and made no claim to.
What I did was to implement an existing design (Thorsten Loesch's redesign of Arthur Loesch phono) and made it sound "great" to me. It was no more complicated than the application minor circuit and parts changes until I heard what I liked - a minor feat that I feel is well within the capabilities of any reasonablly intelligent stereo nut. I tons of online help - but the actual building and parts choices were mine.
Check out Steven's site here: http://www.izzy-wizzy.com/audio/preampnew.html to review a very interesting example of building and rebuilding a phono circuit to try to bring it to perfection. What Steven has done is exactly what commercial manufacturers do to create new iterations of their products. Many times this process is more about perspiration than inspiration.
Mike |
Cheers Dan and Richard. I had heard that the Silk XFs were marginally better than the S&B's but the guy I bought from also had the RIAA modules in a package deal. The S&B are known to be able to take a little DC, making Thorsten's last public design possible.
Stephen's web is pretty facinating. I am using a version of his PS in my LCR RIAA.
Mike |
