Dynavector DV 20X-L -- which MM will better it?

Thanks Photon46,
there is a Reson Reca review by e.g. t-n-t out there, see: http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/resone.html
It does not strike me as a 'MC killer' exactly, i.e. not the best pick for classical, which I listen to a lot, but neither would the 20X-L qualify.

Interestingly there is also a review on a Shure V15xMR and it was the preferred cart for some other well read (myself that is) t-n-t reviewer, who slightly preferred it over the 20X-L, tested a bit later on, see:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/shurev15_e.html
I just ask that comparison to get some idea what I'm getting into looking for some MMs and knowing the sound of the 20X-L pretty well.

Greetings,
Axel

Hi Al,
you say:
>>>Grado Reference Sonata.... it has been well reviewed <<<
This little voice in the back of my mind tells me it was some (all?) Grado's that don't like doing sibilants so well.
My system is highly resolving and I have 'some' issues as it is using an MC right now.
Care to comment on this one please.
Thanks,
Axel

Hi Al and All,
I think that review statement:
>>> ...Competes with all **but** the best of today's moving coils <<< sums it up for me so far.

Given some minor variations & preferences, all MMs mentioned this far seem ballpark with the DV 20X-L, being used as a point of reference.

As I mentioned, I KNOW the sound of the 20X-L. What I also know, is that it is easily bettered by some other MCs which I also know. And they are of course, ALL of them, more or quite a LOT more expensive.

I also mentioned that I still listen to CDs (on my 390S) and that is where it gets tricky.
Listening to some jolly good CD reproductions and then switching to the more 'flowing', more 'rolled off' more 'loosy goosy' yet musical MM reproduction is QUITE some jump in reproduction character.
My first reaction is: SOMETHING IS MISSING HERE! I have to admit, that sticking with it, it becomes -sort of- OK, after a while, but then PLEASE do not switch back to CD. It will get too confusing for me, due to that contrast in presentation.
Using a LO-MC (with SUT) practically ALWAYS trumps the CD reproduction and I can NOT EVER note that something is missing. Now even if I listen to an e.g. Kontra Punkt A (not the ruby cantilevered B) to mention yet another less pricy MC --- something is missing.
Now listening to an e.g. Dorian it can actually get just too much of a good thing --- so I guess I'm not exactly 'greedy' for detail?

All I care for is a sort of 'completeness' of harmonic detail, most important when e.g. listening to late romantic stuff like Ravel, Mahler, etc. Maybe it's an age thing?
I can only (noticeably on sine-wave tests) hear up to 11kHz, maybe 11,5kHZ. My younger friends go up to 15 or even 16kHz, has that some influence on noticing more missing detail? Might well be.

Somebody mentioned the newest Ortofon 2M --- but will it better an 20X-L going back to our point of reference? I would expect it be in the league of the Kontra Punkt A, correct me if I wrong.

Thank you for sharing,
Axel

Hi Thom,
you say:
>>>I would restate my question in the context of your particular tonearm/effective mass <<<

I have used use the 20X-L in a Pro-Ject 9c arm (with the old thick arm tube used with first RPM 9). It sounded great with nice 'fat' bass, but a little rolled off. Arm mass of 9c arm was 11g.
Then with SME V, arm mass 10 - 11g (depending on counter weight position acc. to SME) and it sounded more treble 'tilted' and somewhat 'metallic' with no nice 'fat' bass at all, just 'normal' so to say.

I'm NOT using that cart any more, it's now my son's, but I have used it as a reference in trying to assess some viable MMs of similar price point ~ 350$. So far it sounds like a 1-on-1 with different 'flavours'...

I've just now put in a Shure V15 with VN35MR needle and it sounds surprisingly resolved --- BUT I am getting some (coil?) noise from the cart. What can that be?
So if I can resolve that, it might sound better yet.
I could make a case like that t-n-t reviewer, that I'd prefer that to the 20X-L in my SME arm.
The Shure sounds a bit more balanced, tracking at 1 ~ 1.2g BUT it does not have the 'colours' of a better type MC --- for MANY times the price I hasten to add :-)

Greetings,
Axel

Hi All,
I think that noise (high pitched 50Hz I guess) seems some odd ground-loop problem that I could tackle now. It seems to have to do with my XLR connection which is extra sensitive to this type of thing.
I put the screen of the XLR phono cable on some vacant RCA pre-amp input (that's switched off), and it seems to work fine now. If I go star-ground i.e. tt ground together with the phono cable's screen I get this problem ---- but ONLY with an MM cart. ?!?

Some other MMs I tried produce a terrible hum, even though they play?! Are they shot?

That Shure V15 III I mentioned above is definitely too recessed in the midrange, good bass, a bit too much treble, with recessed mid.
So that one will not qualify, period.
I found one MM that sounds VERY nice, an old A&R Cambridge with P-77 stylus, this baby ROCKS! And it is more balanced then the 20X-L.
So I have found ONE candidate, hurray :-)
Raul is so right about this one! It was actually made by Garrott Brothers for A&R and re-badged using a P-77 stylus.

So now can we find some more of this kind MM, they are truly surprisingly good :-)

Greetings,
Axel
PS: My Windfeld was recalled to Ortofon, I'll see what they find... more about this on the other thread.

Hi Halcro,

good information and it seem to contradict what I had learned, which is: The A&R was a re-badged Garrott with a lesser / cheaper stylus initially. It then was may as you in the 80s bettered with a P-77 stylus from the Garrott P-77, which had been around (in parallel with the re-badged A&R). The Garrott having the same body as the A&R since it made no sense at all to have two different bodies. The body is usually not more 1/3 the cost of the stylus insert in any case.

One Information I have could patch into your rather different account, in that the all original A&R came from some Japanese maker. But it still seem the real tweak came from the Garrott brothers P-77 superior stylus.

I didn't know of their end --- what made them so unhappy I ask?

As to the 20X-L questions. It is in now way a disregard for the 20X-L using it a pegging / reference marker for were an MM could go -- or go past. I have most of my listening experience with my previously owned a GCPH. It a good cart for the money, which I said before ---- B U T then there seem some equally good or yet better MMs for even less money! To find these was the intention of the thread.

The A&R/Garrott P-77 is such an animal as far I as I hear it, and it came for free (at least for me...).

My current phono set-up uses ML326S phono-modules, gleaned from the ML-32 Reference pre, alas with out all the fancy remote options of the 32's modules.

Greetings,
Axel

Thanks Bmckenney,
it's not so much to replace a 20X-L but rather to get a take what MM would better this kind of MC...

I just had in short succession a A&R P-77, then a Lyra Dorian and now a Transfiguration Orpheus in my system --- well, good old Ivor Tiefenbrunn is as right as can right be, by having stated that the SOURCE is THE first thing that matters.
My Burmester 961 now sound like I recall a 3.2.2 Kharma! Quite something and I can just shake my head. Of course my SME-10, SME V arm, 326S, Pass 350.5 will help (at least I hope so!).

Now that Orpheus is of course mega buck territory, but I'm afraid to say that no MM can ever get to that sort of level, correct me if I'm wrong. (It is not my own cart, so sorry...)

Back to the 20X-L. That sort of MC seems just more grainy, I would say, than is a very good MM, YMMV.
Yet it's the same price class, yes? That makes this type of MM a serious contender to a more lower priced MC, and I have a notion I'd pick the MM first. But it need some wake-up call by Raul to open my ears to that.

I mention that Orpheus here, because it showed me what 'reserves' a system can have. That's quite something to hear it for yourself and not just read some review about it.

Thank you for sharing,
Axel

Halcro,
thank you so much for sharing this insightful and touching story about the Garrott Brothers with us.
It makes their legacy even more valuable. They must have had some amazing bond to each other.
Amen
++++++++

1 min pause for thought...

I hope it's OK to add some more profane stuff, but at least it has to do with them. Bless them in any way.

So you say:
>>> Of course the P77 sounded better with none of the irritating and unnatural high frequency exaggeration common to moving coils at that time. <<<

Key word for me is AT THE TIME... I still think there is some of this 'time' going on right now.
What a HUGHE difference in listening between a really well tracking Lyra Dorian and a A&R P-77 ---- this stuff seems worlds apart.
Listening to this Lyra is topping my CD player in CD player terms, as I would put it.
Listening to that P-77 is listening to the music, and no 'distraction' by this 'sound-thing' as you put it so well: "irritating and unnatural high frequency exaggeration" --- right on...

B U T it seems that Hi-End is bound that way, that theme of "MORE of everything is better", not for me really.
This 'sound-thing' is kind of tedious, and leaves me unsatisfied, but I know that tastes differ and so be it.

Now what other cart would be in that 'Garrott P-77' vain I may ask?

Greetings,
Axel

Hi All,
some more information of this history of A&R that seems to require a correction from my side.

+++++++
A&R surprised everyone again in 1981 by introducing a range of phono cartridges offering exactly the same magic formula as the original A60 amp.
The £14.95 C77, £39.90 P77 and £69.00 P78 were A&R designed, Japanese built cartridges using interchangeable styli, making for an easy and inexpensive upgrade path. With medium (6g) mass and a characteristically rich and powerful sound they worked happily in budget and high end tonearms alike.
The C77 featured a standard spherical stylus on an aluminium cantilever, ***the P77 a Weinz Paroc (parabolic oval cone)*** and the P78 added a Boron cantilever. All cartridges became instant hits and the C77 and P77 went on to sell in vast quantities, being joined by a mid range E77 brother and finally gaining a solid Magnesium body in place of the flimsy standard plastic item.
++++

Now that's when Garrott Bros. seems to have come into the game with their 'tweaked' version of the P77, I guess, or? So what I have is a straight forward A&R P77, period.
Lucky who has that as a Garrott version I think.

Interestingly that "P78 added a Boron cantilever" that sounds like the/a Garrott 'tweak' ?!
Can anyone add to this at all?
It still seems that the Garrott P77 seems to be after all this time one of THE MMs if you are looking for a top MM, so far my investigation goes.

Raul, HELP! Have you at all listened to the A&R P77 as compared to the Garrott P77?

Last point: is it true, in listening experience, that the current Garrott offering(s) are somewhat of a 'different' quality?

Thanks,
Axel

Hi Raul,
can you tell me perhaps about the Garrott P77's cantilever material (alu-tube or boron?) and stylus (micro-line, or parabolic, elliptical?) then I'll get some idea.

I had to put a Dorian in my system (for O'scope is measurements, it measures and performs rather well) my PW going back to the factory...
Now it's that 'sound-thing' all over again. I love the detail and resolution B U T something just does not come together --- and with classical I can hear it's sound lacks 'richness', short of calling it anaemic. That is with a 1k loading AND the addition of 10nF to chill-out the treble. It measures very flat and rather nice close to spec though, maybe I must measure an MM some time...

What load capacitors (polystyrene, ceramic, silver-mica) do you recommend for 300pF - 500pF as recommended to be used with a V15?

Have you any idea about Garrott's current 'Optim' with either Shibata or an FGS (Fritz Gyger Special?

Thanks,
Axel

Hi Raul,
you say:
>>> first you never heard a top MM ( like the top MC Orpheus. ) in your today system bis a bis against any top LOMC. <<<

Well, that my be true and it was the intend of this thread to find some of those top MMs. However ---- so far no one came up with even one MM cart that really seem to better an 20X-L!?! I mean are we kidding?

So maybe I should be more bold and go with your take, up the stake and ask please come up with a cart that betters a Transfiguration Orpheus?
Up to now, I would have thought people would think I'm not quite right in the head, in asking such a thing.
We all have our narrowed perceptions due to our own experiences, and therefor when Audiofeil says: "Better is in the ear of the beholder" he is right in some sense...
But how far does one wish to extend this relativistic notion?!
A Boom-box sounding now also better than a top HiFi system -- of course to the ear of the beholder?
Well, I guess relativism gets you only that far, before it becomes ridiculous, or?

Back to MMs, PLEASE then let's not massage concepts about and lets put some chips (carts) on the table. Let's hear about those MMs that are more in resolution, liquidity, controlled bass and powerful bass, transparency, revealing of inner-detail of the music, etc. etc.

Raul, I want to know about those MMs, before I go with your saying:"...your statement had almost no credibility..."

Now, let me give you some idea, and I guess it's not new, but I got it whilst listening the this Orpheus --- "Energy Storage"!
It appears that an ultra low impedance cart such as this one 1.5ohm DCR and compared to ~ .6k to 2.5k ohm! and more of typical MMs is where limits/physical boundaries, with regard to energy storage, correct me if I'm wrong.

I can go listen to a P-77 and say it sound better TO MY EARS than an Orpheus --- BS! Unless I have a hearing aid!
I measured that P-77 of mine and it has a treble roll-off commensurate with what the measurements show i.e. -3dB at the 10kHz!
A Lyra Dorian has -3dB at 20kHz, and a PW -6dB at 20kHz. Those are FACTS, and you can hear that also.

I'm also the first one to say, that measurements are not telling everything (since there are so many of them in any way..) but based on these facts, I would find it currently impossible to imagine an MM can reach such dizzy heights in reproduction as can an Orpheus. This does not invalidate YOUR experience, --- but this far I need to learn a lot more about MMs to find this understanding of mine debunked.

See, now you put some fire under my butt right after breakfast :-)

You say: The 326S like the ML 32 are a little on the " dark side "
Not AT ALL TRUE for ML326S, but true for ML32, I have heard both.

That Orpheus DOES NOT run through an SUT as you assumed, it sounds no good at all with SUT due to an impedance mismatch with its 1.5ohm DCR. It uses 1k loading and 10nF capacitance, period.

My ears are VERY sensitive to too much treble-weight as e.g. a Dorian would have. The Orpheus as does a PW have 'tamed' this behaviour as compared to some cheaper LO-MCs. The Orpheus still need 10nF, the PW doesn't but sounds more 'sat-on' in comparison.

As to the 'noise' spectrum :-0 .......
Raul, rolling off at -3db @ 10kHZ what noise spectrum? It gets damped out in an MM before it reaches your ears... I've seen that spectrum on the O'scope for both MM and MC, that's why I say that.

In closing, as for the BEST MMs Ortofon's 2M Black like that claim to fame! It was only once mentioned in passing in this thread.

So PLEASE let's have these MM facts, name the names --- I have done so and 'I'm hanging out of the bus' more then you guys.

Greetings,
Axel

Raul,
sorry I forgot one more thing please.
Your say, and using my own words here:
"Axel, you do not compare Apples with Apples", yes?

Now let us know what TOP MC carts greater 0.4mV minimum and no more than 4ohm DCR, you would have used to compare your TOP MMs.
Greater 0.45mV and less then 4ohm DCR , since otherwise you will come mention SUTs again and their influence, is not todays subject.

All these carts should easily run up from 3 500$ to say 9 000$, OK?
No problem, since $$$$ is not the issue as you say (it is for me though, most unfortunately).

Now, you can just forget ANY HI-MC in this comparison, so have you listened to an 'Orpheus' and compared it in your system to any TOP MM?

It be VERY interesting, because if not, you would accuse me of the same heresy as would be your own :-)

Greetings,
Axel

Hi Raul,
now that is what I should call VERY GOOD news!
Since we finished O'scope testing of that Orpheus (it's just a bit down on cross-talk rest is on spec.) I'm back to normalcy... also my PW is packed to be returned to the supplier.
So, right now I'm back to the MM side of things, and your cross check to all those high-fly MCs sounds just what was needed right now :-)
We did not 'bother' (time and all) to measure the Shure V15 III and I'm going to put this one in just now.
It seems a bit on the lean side, compared to the A&R P-77 but I'll go down with the VTA which might help... It sounds definitely less rolled-off than the P-77, not that this was so bad, but still.

I know you mentioned some 4 MM carts to me, but is this the 'best' for ~ 600$?
I'm still not so sure that was the intend, since I'd asked for good 47k performers. -- Please kindly confirm.
Nagaoka M500 is still available new on the web for instance.

We also had quite a lengthy discussion about your MM findings and actually came up with some sort of explanation.
It could well be that even an earlier, but more gentle, treble roll-off of an MM could explain it sounding more 'natural' all in all, when compared to the extended treble capability of MCs -- BUT once at ~ 20kHz they're sort of falling of a cliff.
This very type of behaviour is also the cause for a less 'natural' tweeter behaviour as it seems to mess more with the phase of the music signal!

So please confirm that your list of 4 mentioned MMs is were I should go fishing for, to overcome my Orpheus with-drawl symptoms.

Many thanks,
Axel

Raul,
just a bit of chit-chat on this Orpheus loading in a more general vain.
You say:
>>> due to my Orpheus experiences IMHO if you don't like it loaded at 100 Ohms then there is something wrong ( maybe this is not the right word because you like it at that load. ) in your system or your ears. This cartridge does not needs any " help " on the highs ( the same for the PW. )
<<<
Well, now there is also the phono boards if we accept my ears are fine for the time being.
The ML boards allow a 10nF to be jumpered in as it also has a 200ohm jumper (3rd jumper is 40dB or 60dB).
Taking that 10nF out --- re: >>>does not needs any " help " on the highs<<< most all MCs get too 'hot' so it’s quite the opposite! Put it in the table turns the other way and that’s the reason to then ‘help’ it a bit, a fine balance…
Exception is PW so far, but that is not a good example because it's channel balance had issues.
So, put 10nF in there is too little 'extension' at 100ohm in the treble. 47k could work but 1k was better.
Also recall, I had only 2 days to work out a sort of likable balance. That Orpheus cart is VERY touchy with VTA, and it takes a bit of time (at least for me) to get it to it's best balance.
It was still a bit treble-tilted at 1k and 10nF, going down ~< 1mm on VTA and it started to sound sat-on again. I guess 200 or 500ohm could have worked in conjunction with more VTA adjustments --- maybe. 100ohm definitely not with 10nF and with out the C it still had too little air/stage, etc.
The same settings we also used with the Dorian, also a bit bright though and VTA needed to go way down to tame that one.
With my previous PS Audio GCPH I could not use 1k, as it was already to 'woolly' so I guess those ML phono-boards have a different requirement as they can sound either sat-on or to hot. Why? I guess that's just how they work.

Now that Sure V15 III VN35MR is in the system, and 'pleasant' enough at level VTA and 1.25g VTF and equal anti-skate force. B U T it’s nowhere NEAR as resolved as the Orpheus, it misses a good deal of finer harmonic detail, i.e. no magic, no one in your room, no spooks so to say, and I guess that's that i.e. “You get what you pay for, no? (-:”

So it’s TOP OF THE RACK MM time and I'm sitting it out, pending your answer :-)

Best greetings,
Axel
PS: I truly hope that all this detail might be of some help not only just for myself...