Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling

@provst - I had used Mundorf Solid Silver with 1% gold wire for one of my power cables

• but the UP-OCC solid copper in the power cables outperformed it.

What I am observing at this point in time...

• the Solid SIlver in the Interconnects provided quite the improvement
• BUT - I was able to hear those improvements using...
  • Speaker cables that used UP-OCC copper.
  • Power cables that used UP-OCC copper
• so how much of an improvement would using solid silver provide if used on either of those two cables?
• Would the speaker cables benefit from having UP-OCC Solid Silver Signal Wires?
  • Whilst it is obvious that UP-OCC Silver is a superior conductor I am not certain that using it for the live conductor on Helix Speaker cables would provide a similar level of improvement as observed when UP-OCC solid silver was applied to the Interconnect cables.
• Would the Source power cables show some improvement ?
  • based on past observations - I think they would show some degree of improvement,
  • but any improvement would not be as noticeble as the the improvements achieved by using solid silver on the Interconnect cables
• Would the Amp power cables show some improvement ?
  • based on past observations - I do not believe the Power Amp would show as much of an improvement as the source power cables may have provided

.For me, developing these cables has always been about

1. achieving a noticeable improvement in performance
2. at a reasonable cost

Or what I call Bang for the Buck

For me - I DO NOT believe upgrading my Power cables or Speaker cables with UP-OCC Solid SIlver would provide sufficient Bang for the Buck

I think it depends on whether a person is personally seeking...

• "Audio Nirvana"
• or just cost effective cables.

And - you also have to factor in the type of system they are being used on

• my system is modestly priced and therefore has some limitations
• A system having higher resolution capabilities may show a more appreciable benefit, in which case the cost could be worth it

Hope that helps clarify things

Regards - Steve

 

@provst - some additional thoughts I have regarding cables

Interconnects - convey the most "delicate" signals of an audio system

• This is especially true of Phono Interconnects
• they require the very best materials in order to transfer the incredibly fine micro details to the amplification stage.
• UP-OCC solid siiver is the best metal we currently have that can achieve this

Speaker cables - are dealing with a significantly larger signal,

• Where all of those micro details have now been amplified to levels that are not degraded (as much) by conductors such as UP-OCC copper, having a little less conductivity than UP-OCC Solid Siver
• So I believe any improvements will not be as noticeable, as with the interconnects
• But on highly resolving systems this may not be the case

Power Cables - I have read posts that state that power only operates at one voltage, at one frequncy, and as such, high priced cables are pointless

• But with power cables, you have to consider the BIG PICTURE
  • they accomodate the transfer of Electrical Enegy
  • i.e. as demanded by the circuitry
• In particular - the circuitry demands energy to handle tramnsient spikes
  • That energy comes from the power supply of the component
  • if the components power supply is designed to have sufficient energy reserves, the power supply satisfies those demands without a problem
  • HOWEVER, if the power supply is not capable of satifying those demands then additional demands are placed on the mains supply
    • and for very brief moments in time there is a slight drop in voltage of the component power supply, which impacts circuit performance
    • this is generally the situation with more "budget oriented" components
  • so as the demand for power is then passed back to the mains supply, so having a great cable will replenish the energy in the power supply in a more timely manner
    • however, those demands tend to be smaller than the actual transient peeks.
    • but for absolute best performance using UP-OCC Solid Silver is the best material we have available today
  • Whilst those "energy demands" may be small they are at the same frequncies as the audio signal transient peaks
    • so - the energy transfer within power cables are subject to the same frequncies as the Audio Signal (almost)
    • and as such they should be designed with the same precision/materials/geometry as Interconnects and speaker cables for absolute best performance.
  • In addition to all of the above, the energy in the power supply is continually being replenished via the power cable at close to the speed of light
    • if it is not replennished in a timely manner the output voltage of the power supply fluctuates, which imacts component performance

 

Please note - my statements regarding UP-OCC solic Silver and Copper as being the best materials we currently have applies ONLY to the DIY world.

• Carbon is being used in some commercial cables,
  • but it is much more difficult to terminate and therefore not really applicable to this discussion
• there may also be other materials that I am not aware of

Apologies for the long posts,

Regards - Steve

Hi Steve,

Thank you so much for a very detailed answer and the additional afterthoughts.

I’m in agreement with you regarding the importance of best conductors for the lowest, most fragile signals, which is also the reason why, I will try out the conversion from UP-OCC Cu to UP-OCC silver on my phono cables to test how it sounds on my setup.

Early in the process I did try the Duelund silver cable, but that proved unsuccessful. Due to the gains in sound quality in general using Neotech solid Cu wire, I will give the silver wire from Neotech a try.

@mbolek You are en route and I am looking forward to reading your feedback about what you are perceiving.

@williewonka Your descriptions on the Cable Types and function is making a lot of sense.

Since I have dropped my barriers against Cables and their effects being a fantasy, I have made it my goal to find away to understand how a Cable construction can influence the sound.

After Capacitance and Methods to Screen out Interference, Lower S/N then the types of Wire used start to appear, and then configurations for the wire in use.

With a basic understanding of the above, I stumbled onto the Helix Thread and found myself inspired and most importantly willing to participate, which is now to the point, I have the Wires of choice to commence.

Whilst gathering information and making inquiries to more educated individuals about the importance of some of the electronic considerations for the selection of wires and a Cable Design.

I learnt of a few other things to consider, and that was the importance of the Connectors in use and whether the wire to be used for a Cable can commence its route within the device itself.

Making a decision about a wire within a device is reasonably easy if it is out of warranty and the circuitry design lends itself to the method to exchange.

This has already been agreed to be carried out on my Power Amp's when converted to Balanced and Single Ended, the New Pre Amp is to have my wire choices used from the off.

The connectors used for Single Ended Signal Paths, both connector types,    Chassis Mounted and Cable Attached are more of a challenge.

I have been informed by an individual who has used many Brands Connectors to produce cables, with  Connectors across a range of differing purchase prices to produce Cables or exchange Connectors on bought in Cables.

That there are variables in measurements regularly being discovered when testing  certain Brands and some of the most varied fluctuations are able to be seen on Brands that are sought after for their reported qualities.

The same person has informed me that the Chassis Mounted Connectors can have a very noticeable impact on the sound, and the ones that are Pure Copper with the minimum materials used to produce the part, has in their view the most impressive impact on the sound quality.  The attribute is described as not only being down to the material used but also the mass of the part, as there are less residual signal retained that can be detected as smearing when the signal completes the path.

With the above in mind, is there a possibility that a little more could be extracted, if a thought process was put in place, focusing on how to provide a device that has a thought gone into to it, that will enable it to work as an improved interface with the Cable Design.     

 

    

@pindac -

a device that has a thought gone into to it, that will enable it to work as an improved interface with the Cable Design.

The short answer is...

Anything is possible!

However -

1. getting it accepted across the entire audio industry would be one challenge
2. and then getting it accepted by the audiophile masses would be the final hurdle

The net result of both of these...

it will not happen in my lifetime !

But all is not lost - there are basically four generally accepted connectors within the industry (worldwide) at present

• XLR - extremely robust and multi-purpose
• RCA - the most commonly used and multi-purpose
• BNC - digital only
• DIN - more specialty (e.g. turntable cables) but more widely used in europe

The connector having the highest mass of all of these is the RCA, but that is changing...

• there are now several brands that offer low mass RCA versions
  • ETI, KLE Innovations etc..
  • KLE Innovations now have low mass versions of
    • Banana plugs
    • RCA plugs and sockets
    • speaker/amp terminals

And similalry there are now companies that offer conncetors with pure copper pins in a variety of platings.

It’s just a matter of time - for these materials/designs to become more generally accepted by the component manufacturers.

Also - you have to realize that

• the percentage of audiophiles willing to go to "extremes" to achieve better sound is very small compared to the general audiophile populous
• but the various components are designed to sell to everyone

Being aware of the many realizations you mentioned above, you are now in the 0.1% of audiophiles that see the benefits of the science.

But catering to that 0.1% does not sell product

• printed circuit board designs are "the norm" these days
  • because they bring down the cost of manufacturing
    • so it makes changing sockets extremely difficult
  • and manufacturers build products to a price point and select parts that work, but not necessarily "work well"
• There are some tube amps that do still choose point-to-point wiring
  • which makes replacing sockets very easy
• The most extreme route I have heard of is to hard wire all of your cables

So - the net of all of this is...

• YOU now have the knowledge to make the best possible selections
• Everyone is constrained by poor design & build choices in most of the products out there unfortunately
• However - WE have the knowledge and abilities to minimize the impact of those poor design & build choices.

There is some hope

• Some cable designs now coming onto the market, incorporate many advanced materials, low mass connectors and cable geometries, that result in exceptional results.
• This will "rub off" onto the component maufacturers over time

So I am hopeful that advances in thie area will continue

Regards - Steve.