Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling

@pindac...
RE: the IK Mains plug - take a look at these
UK Mains Plugs | Hifi Collective

RE: the wires you mention:

• when I first started developing the Helix cables I tries several excellent smaller gauge wires - 28, 24 and 20
• Over time, and with feedback from others trying different wires of different gauge, materials and insulation, it would appear the wires currently mentioned on my web site provide excellent performance
• however, other members do have a preference for different wires in their system.

The one area that most seem to agree on is that two wires for signal and two for neutral seems to provide a noticeable improvement over a single wire.

I have tried up to 4 wires on the mains cable, but more than two provided no discernible benefit.

The nice thing with DIY is that you get to choose the wires that you believe will provide the best performance and that fit your budget 

I now have two power cord in my system

• High Power for amps, etc. that use 2 x 14 gauge wires for the live conductor
• Low Power for Source components that use 2 x 16 gauge wires for the Live conductor
• I use the lighter gauge on the second to save some money only - both cables have identical performance
• but you can build one cable for all components if desired 
  

On all my power cables, the neutral is 2 x 12 Silver Plated Mil-spec stranded copper and the ground is 12 gauge copper wire from the hardware store.

The  PC Triple C wire looks very similar to UP-OCC copper, so I would have to guess that it offers similar levels of performance

From the looks of things, the wires you mention might not be suitable to adapt to the options I have listed above for power cables because you would require too many strands to create the required gauge for the conductor.

Having said that I have been proved wrong on many occasions, so I would encourage you to experiment.

Start with Interconnects, because the wire is much more affordable.
Make one using the wires suggested  on my web site and one using your own wires and see which one works best

My Audio Alchemy (image99.net)

My guess is that you will end up with two cables that sound very good, which you can then try on your components to see which matches each components best

FYI - I currently have two slightly difference interconnects in my system because they each suit different components better.

Hope that is of some assistance

Regards - Steve

@bigslacker RE: 

I'm curious why you switched to smaller wires in the silver cable build?

$COST was the main reason.

• I figured that if this combination provided noticeable improvements I could alway try the heavier gauge in the next cable if I thought it was required
• but the results are so good that I have decided to try the 2 x 20 gauge Silver with a 1 x 16 guage UP-OCC copper with Teflon insulatoin to see if the double helix Air is really required

The 2 x 20 gauge Silver compared to the 2 x 18 gauge copper had more "body" and sounded more complete and warmer, with a nicer image and faster dynamics.

 

I'm not sure the 2 x18 gauge solid silver would be worth the additoinal cost, but you could always try it and report back

I'll post observations on my second cable here.

Regards - Steve

 

 

 

@pindac - can you provide a link to this wire so I can take a look at it please - thanks

The only thinng I have found to date is the Furutech CCC bulk power cable, which is stranded.

• Stranded wire does not perofrm to the same level as solid wire.
• Os there a solid CCC witr avaolable - if yes - please provide a ink

When you say that others a prefering the CCC to UP-OCC are they comparing soolid wire to solid wire?

Mant Thanks - Steve

 

The Ultimate Helix DIY Cable - Update!

The wire/RCA’s arrived today so I was able to construct an Interconnect cable with 2 x 20 gauge UP-OCC solid silver signal with a 1 x 16 guage UP-OCC solid copper with teflon insulation.

With just a few hours break-in it would appear that this cable is a real winner.

As suspected the magic is in the Silver UP-OCC solid wire indisde Teflon tubes and not so much the neutral conductor.

I spent an hour going through my audition tracks plus a few other select tracks and tthe results were just as stunning as the the cables with a neutral made from 2 x 18 gauge Solid copper in Teflon tube.

The 1 x 16 gaue with Teflon insulation neutral is much easier to wind and is cheaper.

The image is breathakingly large and very focused - the clarity and details are superb.

The warmth and body I spoke of in my comments a couple of posts ago I believe are due to the improved focus of artist/instrument placement within the image is allowing improved isolation and hence much imporved clarity

• it is as though the individual artists/instruments are no longer "overlapping" each other
• hope that makes sense.

Regards - Steve

 

 

@pindac - where do you buy this wire?

I have only found both the wires you talk about listed as Mains bulk cables - which is much larger than required for interconencts.

Are you using DUCC for Interconnects?

0 if so, do you seperate strands to get a finer gauge?

Unfortunately the PM function does not allow links like the forums do, so you should post any links here

Regards - Steve

HELIX INCOMPATIBILITIES.

Amps that use Symmetrical, Complimentary, or Balanced outputs will not sound their best with Helix Speaker cables and the list is growing daily

• Some D’Agostino Models
• Some Audio Research Models
• Vitus
• Some Musical Fidelity High End Models
• Pass Labs
• BAT VK-255SE
• Some Anthem Models
• Some Yamaha models
• Balanced Audio Technology
• Boulder 500AE
• PS Audio BHK Signature 300
• Accuphase E-303
  

A mono block amp experienced a loud hum when Helix power cables were used - not sure why at the moment

• Canary Grand Reference

If I have missed an amp/model just post it with the same first line - It makes it easy for me to keep track

I will try to maintain a complete list on my web site

Many Thanks - Steve

@mbolek - re:

Also thinking about a hybrid version that uses Chris’ v-quad wire and then do a helix wrap

The Vquad wire has a lot of insulation - and its the insulaton that impacts clarity and details in all cables.

Whilst I was initially aprehensive about usnig silver wire for the signal wires due to fears of cost vs. performance - the improvements in performance with the solid silver wire was very noticeable - even before any break-in.

For interconencts - 5N Solid Silver UP-OCC bare wire is now my first choice and recommendation.

Regards - Steve

 

@twoleftears - thanks for that - yes they are - I’ll update the list

@provst - I cannot find anything on the Gryphon site that states they have Symmetrical, Complimentary, or Balanced outputs. They are PURE CLASS A
- but they were mentioned earlier with respect to the impact of using high capacitance speaker cables which can do damage via oscillation

I believe Gryphon amps will work very well with Helix Cables

Cheers - Steve

So an updated list is now on my web site - I will endeavour to keep it updated as I hear about more instances, so keep them coming :-(

HELIX Q & A | My Audio Alchemy (image99.net)

Regards - Steve

@mbolek  - here are the links to the wires I used for the interconects

For the Neutral wire:

https://www.partsconnexion.com/NEOTECH-71448.html

For the Signal Wires

ConneX Wire 20awg OCC5N Silver Wire Hook-up (partsconnexion.com)

Regards - Steve

@pindac - it would appear that the wire you have provided links to is of a comparable (if not higher) quality to the UP-OCC solid copper wire available from other vendors mentioned in this thread

The 0.9mm dia (19 gauge) would be ideal for the interconnects and the thicker gauge you mention would be better suited to Mains and Speaker cables

How much better than the other UP-OCC wires would it be?

• From what I have read/tanslated, I have no doubt that this wire will perform upto (and may marginally exceed)  the performance level of the UP-OCC wires.
• when you get to wires of this quality there would be very litte difference between them,
• so then it comes down to
  • personal poreference
  • cost - this wire appears to be reasonably priced
  • availability - are all required gauges available ?
  • delivery - how long doe it take to arrive ?
  • convenience 
    • ​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Other vendors, like Parts Connxion, are able to supply most (if not all) of the parts required for th Helix cables, so there is the convenience for one-stop-shopping

For me, this wire does not provide enough of a "technological advancement" to warrant the expense and effort of performing a comparison.between rwo wires that would probably offer very similar levels of performance.

For Interconencts - the UP-OCC 5N Solid Silver wire will/does provide significant improvement over this wire and UP-OCC Solid Copper

• the only thing that deters me from using UP-OCC Solid Silver for speaker cables is the expense
• but if anyone is pursuing "Audio Nirvana" then this is the wire to

So, If someone out there is looking for wire for a Helix Build, the the DUCC and Tripple C wires would make a very fine cable

Regards - Steve

 

 

 

@mawe - #3 is correct - BUT #1 should be UP-OCC Silver - thanks for brining it to my attention :-)

Here’s the correct list - and I’ve deleted the post with the mistake
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had not seen IACS rating for UP-OCC metals before, so I thought I would post this list of all metals commonly used in audio products

Electrical Conductivity or IACS rating

• International Annealed Copper Standard
• where Tough Pitch copper is the benchmark at 100%

The IACS rating (i.e. conductivity) for the best conductors are

1. UP-OCC Silver - 107%
2. Pure Silver - 105%
3. UP-OCC copper - 103%
4. OFC Copper - 101%
5. Pure copper (aka Tough Pitch) - 100%

Please Note: the values above may vary slightly depending on the source

Other metals frequently used in audio applications for plating...

• Gold - 70%
• Rhodium - 39%
• Nickel - 24%
• Platinum - 16%

When use for plating, these metals require a substrate plating material to be placed on the copper first.

However - Silver is the only metal that can be plated directly onto copper without degrading performance

Other copper alloys most used, especially for pins in Connectors of all types...

• Tellurium Copper - 93 %
• Beryllium Copper - 45%
• Brass - 26%-27%
• Bronze - 15%-19%

Hope this clarifies yet another part of the cables puzzle

Regards - Steve

@Luisma31 - From what I have read the Atma-Shere amps appear to be  Balanced Differential Design, which means the HELIX Speaker cables WILL NOT perform their best when connected to these amps.

As suggest in an earlier post for another member, you could make two UP-OCC bare conductors in Teflon tube that follow the Air adaption on my web site

This gives you the benefit of conductors that effectively has Air as their dielectric, which translates to improved clarity, dynamics and imaging

How to construct a prototype...

1. Go to the dollar store and buy some children's alphabet blocks
2. Go to the hardware store and buy some little screw-in ring eyelets
3. screw one in each side of the block - it will space the two wires
4. Follow the instruction on my site for the Air adaption of the signal wire for speaker cables
5. thread the two wires through the eyelets to maintain a gap between the two conductors
6. I would still use the KLE Innovations Banana plugs
7. Connect to the system and enjoy

You can build a more "professional" spacer one the concept is proven 

If you would like a more detailed info please contact me via the email address on my web site

Regards - Steve

@wig  - did you use bare wire inside the teflon tube?

I found that using the bare wire in Teflon tubes did not require anywhere near as much burn in as the wire with insulation, but then the connectors and neutral wires were already well used, so that may have something to do with it

Regards

@massagevermont - I have used two different tubes on each of the interconenct cables - both having 2 x 20 gauge UP-OCC solid Silver UP-OCC wire

• for the Double/Double interconnct with
  • 2 x 20 gauge bare solid silver UP-OCC signal wires
    • I used a 16 gauge tubing from Take Five Audio
  • and 2 x 18 gauge bare solid copper UP-OCC neutral wires
    • I used a 16 gauge tubing from Take Five Audio
• for the Double/Single interconnect with
  • 2 x 20 gauge bare solid silver UP-OCC signal wires
    • I used a 14 gauge tubing from Parts Connexion
  • and 1 x 16 gauge gauge solid UP-OCC copper wire with Teflon insulation

As best I can tell...

• there is no discernible difference between these two cables
• i.e. on MY system with my ears  😃

Regards - Steve

@mbolek - sounds as though the VenHaus Mains Cable has identical Live and Neutral wires, with only the ground wires spiralled around the outside - correct?

Cheers - Steve

@in_shore - RE: not connecting the ground...

My personal view...

1. if there is a ground pin on the IEC socket of a component then the component has been designed in such a way that in the event of some kind of internal failure then the user will be protected
2. in such cases, the ground SHOULD NOT be disabled in any way
3. If there is NO ground pin then having the ground wire in the cables makes no difference.
4. I believe it may contravene electrical codes
5. it is certainly the first place an investigator will look

I realize this is a favorite method of many audiophiles to eliminate noise that is often referred too as "ground loop hum",

More often than not, this problem arises when you combine certain components...
e.g. amps that have a grounded power cable - with other components that DO NOT have a grounded power cable.

Components with Wal-Wart power supplies are prone to this problem

e.g. I have a Bluesound Node 2 (ungrounded) and a Simaudio Moon phono stage (grounded)

• If I only connect the Node 2 to my amp I get a hum
• if I then attach the phono stage the hum goes away
• this is because the neutral side of "the system" is actually grounded via the phono stage
• this approach is used in many amp designs

This is a common problem, so if I ONLY want to use the Node 2 and NOT have the hum, I have a little wire lead that I attach to the NEUTRAL of any UNUSED INPUT on the amp and the ground pin of the mains supply.
- VOILA! - no more hum

This effectively ensures the neutral side of the circuits in ALL connected components are now at ZERO volts - where they theoretically should be

I came across this issue about 12 years ago when I purchased a NAIM amp. Turns out the circuits in NAIM amps are designed to "ground" via their source components.
I investigated my source that caused the problem and found a small voltage on the neutral side of the components circuit
- it was NOT at zero volts relative to the mains ground
- grounding the neutral solved the problem

PLEASE NOTE: this solution IS NOT a remedy for all hums
- some hums can be caused by circuit malfunctions or imbalances.

e.g. I recently saw a video that demonstrated how a seemingly good tube from one manufacturer caused a severe hum in an amp.
Please note - The solution above would not fix this issue.

Apologies for the long post - I like to provide context :-)

Regards - Steve

@mbolek - very interesting - A "Quasi-Helix" design? 🤔

"Technically" - this cable has some positive and negative atrtibutes/benefits

• on the positive side
  • the wire is cryo treated
  • is uses Airlok insulation, so it will have a lower noise floor than other cables
    • It is easier to use compared to Bare wire inside Teflon tube
• on the negative side
  • The Airlok insulation is not quite as good as the bare wire in Teflon tubes at lowering noise floor
  • it uses stranded OFC copper
    • solid wire is always better
    • UP-OCC copper improves dynamic performance over OFC copper

Having said all of that - your observations appear quite positive...

I hooked up the VenHaus PC and really liked it.

It WOULD make a good power cable option for people using a Balanced Power Conditioner

• Because the Live and neutral conductors are identical
  • Helix PC’s are NOT best suited to this application because the Live and Neutral conductors are very different

QUESTION - to form the Live and Neutral conductors

• did you "pair" adjacent conductors ? OR
• did you pair opposite conductors ?

It will be interesting to hear your observations when comparing it to cables that employ

• solid UP-OCC coper
• A true Helix "Air" Cable geometry

Marty - That’s some nice "out of the box" thinking - congrats!

Regards - Steve

@zlib - despite what others may believe - there are limits to my cable obsession 🤪

The only reason I can think square wire would improve things is the increase in effective gauge.

But you have planted a seed - only time will tell 👍

Cheers

@wig - did you try the cables with the UP-OCC copper neutral on your main rig yet?

And the verdict?

I am very interested to hear if there were noticeable improvements over the silver coated Mil-Spec neutral version

Cheers - Steve

The Ultimate Helix DIY Cable - Update - i.e. after 200 hours Break-in!

The two "Ultimate" cables were constructed much the same as the normal Helix Air cables with the following "variation"

• Both cables used 2 x 20 gauge UP-OCC solid Silver wires, each wire inside Teflon tubes for the Signal conductor
• The Double/Double cable had 2 x 18 gauge UP-OCC solid copper with each wire inside Teflon tubes for the neutral
  • and previouslty used Absolute Harmony RCA plugs
• the Double/Single cable had 1 x 16 gauge UP-OCC solid copper with Teflon insulation for the neutral
  • and brand new Absolute Harmony RCA plugs

Even during initial listening sessions these cables sounded amazingly good and it was very hard to distinguish anything between them i.e. on my system.

They have now both had about 200 hours of use and I find it difficult to discern any improvements compared to their initial auditions.

• Both cables are sounding amazingly detailed and airy.
• Both cables sound identical

So breaking down their performance...

Dynmics

• amazingly fast, with more textures being revealed with a fuller sound i.e. more "body"
• percussion instruments, e.g. gongs, cymbals, glockenspeil, xylophone etc. have more details of the initial strike and far more textures in the decay
• plucked instruments are especially more realistic as the string is being plucked

Image

• a more expansive image (in every direction) that envelops the listening position and spreads through both width, depth and height
• more easily discernible "layers" within the music that allows instruments and artists to be more easilty distinguished within the image
• the image now provides that sense of grandeur that large venues posess
  • this is very apparent when playing pipe organ music recorded live in a church or cathedral

Clarity and details

• not only are there more details within the image, but micro details like the fingernail plucking at the guitar or harp strings and the strings buzzing against the guitar fret board are easily heard
• Voculs sound fuller and more complete - they have more body and the whispery aspect of a vocal is even more detailed and discernible.

These cables "persuaded me" to go through my albums searching out details never before heard

• older albums circa 1960-1970 revealed deatils that were shockingly good for the time
• newer albums sounded even more astounding
• studio albums had a more life like aire to them
• Live albums transport you right into the venue

These cables are well worth the expense of the 5N solid silver UP-OCC bare wire.

But as it turns out - the Double/Single, that uses 1 x 16 gauge UP-OCC wire with Teflon insulation for the neutral sounds every bit s good as the Double/Double, with  2 x 18 gauge wire (in Teflon tubes) - so it is more affordable and easier to construct.

• But that is on my system and with my OLD EARS to gauge their performance
• you might want to try the Double/Double if your system is highly resolving, because it might just reveal details that the Double/Single may omit.

That’s about it - give them a try - I don’t think you will dissapointed

Regards - Steve

@norco74 - these are the wires I used on the two Ultimate DIY Helix Cables

For the 1 x 16 gauge Neutral wire on the Double/Single cable:

• https://www.partsconnexion.com/NEOTECH-71448.html

For the 2 x 18 gauge neutral wire on the Double/Double cable:

• https://www.partsconnexion.com/OCC6N-75183.html

For the 2 x 20 gauge Signal Wires on BOTH cables

• ConneX Wire 20awg OCC5N Silver Wire Hook-up (partsconnexion.com)

Strangely, I had not noticed the price difference because I was always more focussed on other aspects of the build - so...

• you could employ the same technique as used on the neutral wire of the Double/Double cable
  • i.e. of using 1 x 16 gauge bare wire in Teflon tube for the neutral of the Double/Single cable.in place of the Neotech insulated wire
• it does require s little more care when winding the neutral coil
• it will perform equally as well as the insulated wire.
• Use a tube that has an internal diameter 25% - 30% larger than the diameter of the wire.

In listening test performed with an earlier cable,

• I compared two signal wires...
  • the Neotech wire with the insulation removed inside a Teflon tube
  • the bare wire of identical gauge inside a Teflon tube
• I found I preferred the Bare Wire
  • but the differences were miniscule

Hope that clarifies everyrthing

Regards - Steve

@norco74 - forgt to comment on

Also, how’s the cable stiffness between the single and double neutral assembly?

There is little difference in cable stiffness because you are not actually bending the wire in the neutral - The neutral is like a spring so flexes more easily

Doubling up on the neutral causes very little additional stiffness.

Regards - Steve

@provst - I had used Mundorf Solid Silver with 1% gold wire for one of my power cables

• but the UP-OCC solid copper in the power cables outperformed it.

What I am observing at this point in time...

• the Solid SIlver in the Interconnects provided quite the improvement
• BUT - I was able to hear those improvements using...
  • Speaker cables that used UP-OCC copper.
  • Power cables that used UP-OCC copper
• so how much of an improvement would using solid silver provide if used on either of those two cables?
• Would the speaker cables benefit from having UP-OCC Solid Silver Signal Wires?
  • Whilst it is obvious that UP-OCC Silver is a superior conductor I am not certain that using it for the live conductor on Helix Speaker cables would provide a similar level of improvement as observed when UP-OCC solid silver was applied to the Interconnect cables.
• Would the Source power cables show some improvement ?
  • based on past observations - I think they would show some degree of improvement,
  • but any improvement would not be as noticeble as the the improvements achieved by using solid silver on the Interconnect cables
• Would the Amp power cables show some improvement ?
  • based on past observations - I do not believe the Power Amp would show as much of an improvement as the source power cables may have provided

.For me, developing these cables has always been about

1. achieving a noticeable improvement in performance
2. at a reasonable cost

Or what I call Bang for the Buck

For me - I DO NOT believe upgrading my Power cables or Speaker cables with UP-OCC Solid SIlver would provide sufficient Bang for the Buck

I think it depends on whether a person is personally seeking...

• "Audio Nirvana"
• or just cost effective cables.

And - you also have to factor in the type of system they are being used on

• my system is modestly priced and therefore has some limitations
• A system having higher resolution capabilities may show a more appreciable benefit, in which case the cost could be worth it

Hope that helps clarify things

Regards - Steve

 

@provst - some additional thoughts I have regarding cables

Interconnects - convey the most "delicate" signals of an audio system

• This is especially true of Phono Interconnects
• they require the very best materials in order to transfer the incredibly fine micro details to the amplification stage.
• UP-OCC solid siiver is the best metal we currently have that can achieve this

Speaker cables - are dealing with a significantly larger signal,

• Where all of those micro details have now been amplified to levels that are not degraded (as much) by conductors such as UP-OCC copper, having a little less conductivity than UP-OCC Solid Siver
• So I believe any improvements will not be as noticeable, as with the interconnects
• But on highly resolving systems this may not be the case

Power Cables - I have read posts that state that power only operates at one voltage, at one frequncy, and as such, high priced cables are pointless

• But with power cables, you have to consider the BIG PICTURE
  • they accomodate the transfer of Electrical Enegy
  • i.e. as demanded by the circuitry
• In particular - the circuitry demands energy to handle tramnsient spikes
  • That energy comes from the power supply of the component
  • if the components power supply is designed to have sufficient energy reserves, the power supply satisfies those demands without a problem
  • HOWEVER, if the power supply is not capable of satifying those demands then additional demands are placed on the mains supply
    • and for very brief moments in time there is a slight drop in voltage of the component power supply, which impacts circuit performance
    • this is generally the situation with more "budget oriented" components
  • so as the demand for power is then passed back to the mains supply, so having a great cable will replenish the energy in the power supply in a more timely manner
    • however, those demands tend to be smaller than the actual transient peeks.
    • but for absolute best performance using UP-OCC Solid Silver is the best material we have available today
  • Whilst those "energy demands" may be small they are at the same frequncies as the audio signal transient peaks
    • so - the energy transfer within power cables are subject to the same frequncies as the Audio Signal (almost)
    • and as such they should be designed with the same precision/materials/geometry as Interconnects and speaker cables for absolute best performance.
  • In addition to all of the above, the energy in the power supply is continually being replenished via the power cable at close to the speed of light
    • if it is not replennished in a timely manner the output voltage of the power supply fluctuates, which imacts component performance

 

Please note - my statements regarding UP-OCC solic Silver and Copper as being the best materials we currently have applies ONLY to the DIY world.

• Carbon is being used in some commercial cables,
  • but it is much more difficult to terminate and therefore not really applicable to this discussion
• there may also be other materials that I am not aware of

Apologies for the long posts,

Regards - Steve

@pindac - I took a look at the details on the  PC Triple C Power Cable from Furutech and the granular structure of the copper wire they use (as a result of their "forging process")  looks very similar to the granular structure of the copper produced via the OCC process.

So if the wire you have ordered to build the Helix cables is UP-OCC copper it will be interesting to hear your observations between the two.

Keep us updated

@willgolf - You might want to take a look at Inakustik power cables. They are very good.

I did converse with @aniwolfe about your Helix problem and I could not think of what might be causing that issue. It remains a mystery.

If you are looking for a DIY solution then I would suggest this bulk wire
Furutech FP-TCS31 PC-Triple C Power Cable - VH Audio

The copper used is very similar to UP-OCC copper and will provide similar benefits.

Hope that helps - Steve

@aniwolfe - I had thought about that also.

I’m just not "certain" how much benefit will be realized for a wire that costs more than twice the price of the Mil-Spec - would the benefits be marginal?

Another more affordable option is he UP-OCC stranded with the PVC insulation

The same approach could be applied to the speaker cables as well.

I’ll try the stranded on a couple of PC’s and find out.

But this latest adaption was definitely worth it

Regards - Steve

So following on @wig 's experience with replacing the Mil-spec wire with the UP-OCC solid copper on his PC's, I decided to try the something similar by replacing the Mil-Spec neutral of my interconnects with a single strand of  Neoteech16 gauge UP-OCC solid copper with Teflon insulation.

And at this point I would like to applaud Wig for tackling a mains cables, because the 16 gauge was much more difficult to fabricate than the mil-spec - I cannot imagine how difficult the 12 gauge was.

But the reward in this case was also stunning

• much better separation of the various artists that provided a significant improvement in details
• a little improvement in image width, but a significant improvement in image depth and  artist isolation
• improved venue acoustics details
• much more punchy dynamics
• overall - a more full bodied presentation
• stunning harmonics from grand piano
• more whispery textures on vocals

And all of this before burning the cables in - however the signal wire and RCA's already had a few hundred hours on them.

All in all a worthwhile upgrade.:-)

I might try the power cables next, because my two main PC's are only about 27" long, so they should be easier to fabricate than some of my longer cables.

I'm also thinking of applying the "Air" adaption to the neutral as well.

Should be - "fun"? LOL

Regards - Steve

@wig ’s observations regarding his upgrade of the Neutral on his power cables got the old grey-matter going - once again...

I just happened to have some 12 gauge bare Neotech UP-OCC laying around from one of my previous upgrades, so I decided to use it to see what impact it would have if I used the it for the NEUTRAL wires in my DIY Power Distribution Box.

This box is a very simple design - just three MRI grade outlets with a mini breaker and a couple of on/off switches - it is used only to distribute power to my source components

The existing wires

• live - 12 gauge solid Neotech with Teflon - approx 20" long
• neutral - 12 gauge silver plated Mil-Spec - approx 10" long

I simply replaced the neutral only with the bare 12 gauge inside a PVC tube - so basically I incorporated the "Air" adaption as well

But when I listened - just as @wig observed - I could not believe what I was hearing.

• improved clarity and even more details - just wonderful articulation
• improved bass texture details and depth
• improved dynamics
• an image that is more detailed and spacious

All this right from the get-go.

One of my favorite types of audition music is the Church Pipe Organ, because of the subtle nuances of the upper register pipes, to the more startling bass tones.
I have a few pieces recorded in large cathedrals using dual high quality microphones only, which I find are just amazing to listen to.

But I was not quite ready for what I was about to hear...

This simple little upgrade now conveys the true (massive) character of this wonderful instrument.

• the truly amazing "wall of sound" that conveys the grandeur of the cathedral setting
• the stunning dynamics and details from the bass pipes through to the upper registers
• the vibration of those massive bass pipes - it was like someone shaking you
• and the separation between the various sections of "pipe voices" spread across the image

After experiencing how much more difficult upgrading the 16 gauge neutral on the Interconnects were, I decided I did not want to "wrestle" with replacing a 12 gauge neutral on my PC’s

So now I eagerly await the arrival of the 12 gauge Neotech stranded UP-OCC for a PC Upgrade - later this week.

As always - I will reports back on this upgrade also

So what started out as a seemingly "insignificant upgrade" i.e. to put some spare quality wire to good use
- it appears that it doesn’t matter how long the wire is
- upgrading to UP-OCC always pays off

Regards - Steve.

@willgolf - WRT the hum you experienced using the Helix Power Cables...

Several years ago an acquaintance experienced a serious issue with his amp after installing a high quality power cable. It seemed that the more conventional power cables did not cause the problem, but it turns out that the "root cause" of his problem was actually his speaker cables and not the power cable

When @aniwolfe told me about your problem I did some digging and found this link which "could’ provide and explanation for the Hum you experienced...
Two Types of Tube Amplifier Hum and How to Determine the Source - YouTube

Yours is the first case I have heard about where the Helix Power cables has caused some problem.

Perhaps the Helix PC's simply exacerbated an issue with one or more of the tubes?

Regardless, replacing the Helix PC is probably the easiest option.

But I thought it was worth mentioning

Regards - Steve

@pindac -

a device that has a thought gone into to it, that will enable it to work as an improved interface with the Cable Design.

The short answer is...

Anything is possible!

However -

1. getting it accepted across the entire audio industry would be one challenge
2. and then getting it accepted by the audiophile masses would be the final hurdle

The net result of both of these...

it will not happen in my lifetime !

But all is not lost - there are basically four generally accepted connectors within the industry (worldwide) at present

• XLR - extremely robust and multi-purpose
• RCA - the most commonly used and multi-purpose
• BNC - digital only
• DIN - more specialty (e.g. turntable cables) but more widely used in europe

The connector having the highest mass of all of these is the RCA, but that is changing...

• there are now several brands that offer low mass RCA versions
  • ETI, KLE Innovations etc..
  • KLE Innovations now have low mass versions of
    • Banana plugs
    • RCA plugs and sockets
    • speaker/amp terminals

And similalry there are now companies that offer conncetors with pure copper pins in a variety of platings.

It’s just a matter of time - for these materials/designs to become more generally accepted by the component manufacturers.

Also - you have to realize that

• the percentage of audiophiles willing to go to "extremes" to achieve better sound is very small compared to the general audiophile populous
• but the various components are designed to sell to everyone

Being aware of the many realizations you mentioned above, you are now in the 0.1% of audiophiles that see the benefits of the science.

But catering to that 0.1% does not sell product

• printed circuit board designs are "the norm" these days
  • because they bring down the cost of manufacturing
    • so it makes changing sockets extremely difficult
  • and manufacturers build products to a price point and select parts that work, but not necessarily "work well"
• There are some tube amps that do still choose point-to-point wiring
  • which makes replacing sockets very easy
• The most extreme route I have heard of is to hard wire all of your cables

So - the net of all of this is...

• YOU now have the knowledge to make the best possible selections
• Everyone is constrained by poor design & build choices in most of the products out there unfortunately
• However - WE have the knowledge and abilities to minimize the impact of those poor design & build choices.

There is some hope

• Some cable designs now coming onto the market, incorporate many advanced materials, low mass connectors and cable geometries, that result in exceptional results.
• This will "rub off" onto the component maufacturers over time

So I am hopeful that advances in thie area will continue

Regards - Steve.

 

 

UPDATE: - following @wig 's lead, regarding replacing the Mil-Spec neutral with Neotech wire on my power cables, I ordered some 12 gauge stranded Neotech UP-OCC wire, which finally  finally arrived yesterday :-)l 

Without any break-in time there was a noticeable improvement

• more details and improved clarity - especially in the top end
• improved articulation throughout
• more robust bass with even more texture
• faster dynamics
• Improved image - deeper and more precise artist placement
• totally invisible speakers

But was it worth the expense?

Well, I only used s single wire as opposed to the two mil-spec wires

But taking that into account - it more expensive than the Mil-Spec.

However - when you experience the improvement of the wonderful sound - it was definitely worth it.

The Neotech Stranded UP-OCC is probably not as good as the Neotech solid wire, but I have no intention of wrestling a 12 gauge solid wire.

The Neotech UP-OCC was very similar to the Mil-Spec to work with

• it held the Helix shape nicely
• was easy to stretch out over the length of the live conductor
•  only needed one wire
• it was a little larger in cross section than the mil-spec

How much difference was there? The improvements were noticeable without any burn in, so I think things will improve over time

Regards - Steve

@lewinskih01 - assuming you mean Single Ended Triode amps...

To my knowledge - Cables using the Helix design do not perform well under the following circumstances...

Helix Speaker cables

• when connceting to Amplifiers that are designed using a symetric balanced output architecture
  • where the speaker terminals have the same output signals, but they are 180 degrees out of phase

Helix Power cables

• when connecting to power sources that provide only a balanced output
  • i.e. where the "live" and the "neutral" have the same voltage, but they are 180 degrees out of phase
  • such as some power conditioners and power regenration units
  • the Power Grid in Norway is fully balanced

The electrical "spec’s" of the Helix cables are "middle of the road" for capacitance and inductance values, so they are suited to a wide variety of amplifiers and speakers

Other than in the two cases mentioned above, I do not see any reason why he cables would not perform extremely well,

• and since you have already protyped a Helix cable and achieved promising results, I see no reason for not proceeding.

The latest adaption usin solid UP-OCC silver wire for the interconnect signal wires should prove to be an excellent cable for your SET amp

Regards - Steve

@sns and @lewinskih01 - Interestingly enough, another member has just built a balanced power cable and he likes what he hears.

Basically, you have identical live and neutral conductors inside the helix coil, where the helix coil is the ground wire

1. Both live and ground conductors could be formed from 2 x 16 or 2 x 18 gauge UP-OCC bare wires, where each wire is inside a teflon tube
   • I would use a reverse twist on one of the conductors to mitigate some of the induction process e.g.
     • Live conductor would twist clockwise
     • Neutral conductor would twist anti-clockwise
     • Use a relaxed twist - i.e. one complete twist every 3"-4"
   • the 2 x 18 gauge live and neutral conductors should easily fit inside a helix coil made with a 5/16" rod,
   • but I am not sure about the 2 x 16 gauge version - it might
   • If your amp requires a large current draw then use 2 x 14 gauge wires
2. or alternately you could use the 2 x 18 gauge UP-OCC wire from VH Audio with the Airlok inuskation for the Live and Neutral
   • ​​​​​​​but using this method I would insert each twisted pair of conductors insitde a cotton sleeve to add some space between them

For both versions I would use a double coil ground conductor made from 2 x 14 gauge.. I think this would provide a better faraday cage effect to shield the Live and Neutral condctors

Personally - I would opt for #1, but #2 is a little easier to fabricate and the difference in performance would be small

Would it bs as good as the asymmetrical Helix PC used with a normal house supply?

• I do not think so because you still have the two conductors laying side by side, but the reverse twist on one conductor should help
• but using UP-OCC copper inside the teflon tubes will certainly sound much better than most branded products
• The key here is that you are using UP-OCC copper and if you use the teflon tube as the insulation then the impact of distortions from the insulation is minimized

If DIY is not an option then I would highy recommend Zavfino cables - they aill work very well with balanced power supplies and they use UP-OCC wires

Hope that helps - Steve

 

@jambaj0e - just reviewed your "balanced" headphones and it appears the Helix geometry will not work well with your headphones.

Balanced headphones requires both lines, i.e. the +ve and -ve, wires to be identical (length, gauge and metal
- it’s a bit like the output from a balanced power supply.
- but it is not "balanced" in the same way XLR interconnects are built .

Whereas the Helix wires are a "single ended" architecture that has a neutral that is 3 times the length of the signal wire and a different gauge for Signal and neutral wires

Hope that explains things - Steve

@ provst - my own personal approach when making changes to a cable is to introduce a single change at any one time. This allows me to assess the changes as they relate to just that change.

One of the original approaches in the Helix design was to incorporate a larger gauge neutral wire. and this approach was adopted across all cable types and it appeared to work very well.

Also, very early on I did try different wire types for the neutral on my interconnects, but they seemed to provide little, to no benefit over the larger gauge Mil-spec wire, so I never pursued it any further.

And remember that the Mil-Spec is silver plated, which contributes to it’s conductivity, which probably made it perform better than those other wires tried at that time - i.e. until most recently, the UP-OCC wire was used.

So when @wig reported his positive observations after replacing the Mil-Spec neutral with Neotech Solid wire, I decided to try the same "approach" with a single wire on my interconnects. That proved to be successful.

I then went on to try that same approach on my power cables, but with a single stranded wire, which was also very "successful".

The Neotech UP-OCC wire was the first wire that made a noticeable improvement when used for the neutral.

Now, both my interconnects use a double signal wire and a single larger gauge neutral wire. Would a double neutral wire perform better? I believe it would, it’s just a case of BY HOW MUCH?

So now I have cables that are performing at (close to) the very top end of the "performance curve" and I believe I may be entering the region of "diminishing returns".

So I have to ask myself - will the amount of improvement achieved by adding a second neutral really going make enough of a difference to justify the expense and the effort?

I still have two source power cables that use the Mil-spec neutral and they sound great, but I might try this approach just to satisfy my own curiosity :-)

If money were no object I would invest in cables using UP-OCC solid silver for all conductors - they should provide the very best sound possible

WRT you statement...

When discussing power cords I seem to remember, that one of the prerequisites for the design was, that no power was running on the neutral side, only in the live wire.

I believe this may have been in context of the "safety aspect" of the Helix design and the fact that should the insulation on the neutral become compromised, it would not present a significant risk of electric shock because the neutral side IS (or should be) at zero vaults provided all the other attached electrical circuits are functioning correctly.

But the neutral IS required to allow the transfer of electrical energy from the live to "ground" and having a better "pipe" to accomplish that transfer would naturally result in better performance.

Regards - Steve

@jambaj0e - it works for USB cables - for details see

The HELIX USB Cable | My Audio Alchemy (image99.net)

Regards

@provst - WRT Which wire to use

This is a tough one - It’s too bad you have purchased the TFA Mil-Spec.

I could tell you that there was only a tiny improvement, but it was easily discernable and I considered it a worthwhile upgrade

Having said that the two cables I upgraded were

• the PC for the amp
• the PC for the power distribution box that provides power to the source components
• the two cables from the distribution box to the source components still use the Mil-spec

So if oyu have a similar setup you could use some of the Mil-spec

Generally - I would recommend getting the Neotech Stranded UP-OCC wire and make a single Helix coil for the neutral with a 2 x 14 gauge live conductor using the Air adaption (i.e. bare wire inside teflon tube) for best performance.


RE:

I assume your observations are with single ended cables using RCA’s, so that cable will consist of a signal wire and a helix both made by using Neotech. My question is, what are the expectations, when interconnects are balanced using XLR connectors and where Neotech is used for ve+ and ve-. Would you expect differences for the better, if the helix (which is ground on a balanced cable) also was converted to Neotech?

Yes - a single ended cable was used
Yes - I would expect the same improvements for XLR with all wires being Neotech with a single Helix Coil neutral (i.e. ground)


Regards - Steve

@jambaj0e Regarding...

@williewonka I have seen USB, but what about micro USB and type C? Also, what about coaxial Bnc cables?

A USB Micro cable would be very difficult to fabricate because of the thickness of the wires.

But you could build a standard USB cables and use an adapter

Attaching wires to BNC connectors would be difficult

However - the IC's also make an excellent SPDIF cable just as they are

Regards

@provst - @aniwolfe 's suggestion could have some merit, as there may be some "screening benefits" from having a double PE, but I have never tried it and EMI and RFI is not an issue I have identified as being problematic in my home

Or - you can simply leave the ground wire as a single conductor.

I have tried using Mil-Spec for the PE, and it  does not appear to affect sound quality.

Regards

• OK, so let's take a look at the history of the Helix

1. I first started the Helix design with a single Live or Signal wire and that had a thicker gauge neutral - approximately twice the gauge
2. The thicker gauge neutral provided significant sonic benefits
3. The power cables having a thicker gauge neutral looked strange, so I used two 12 gangue neutrals ONLY to have a thicker neutral - nothing to do with the double shotgun approach
4. Then the double shotgun approach was introduced for the interconnect signal and neutral wires, but I found that one soruce sounded better with a double signal wire and a single neutral wire
5. The double live was then introduced into the Power cables, which already had a double neutral anyway 
6. The speaker cables adopted the double signal wire, but kept the 10 gauge neutral, however some people have adopted a 2 x 12 gauge neutral
7. The "Air" was the latest revamp of the entire lineup
8. Then following on from Wig's success with the Solid Neotech UP-OCC copper for the neutral on his power cables I then tried a single wire Solid UP-OCC Neotech on the Interconnect neutral and it too proved very good
9. I then decided to try a single wire neutral  on my PC's using the stranded Neotech UP-OCC wire to see if it would provide improved sound just as the Solid Neotech wire had. 
10. I chose stranded wire because the solid takes a lot of effort when stretching  the coils along the Live Conductor and I wanted to see if the stranded was easier - it was

So I posted my findings and @wig confirmed my observations were very similar to his single Neotech UP-OCC solid copper neutral.

Why did I choose not try a double helix neutral? Simply because Wig had used a single wire on his PC version and I wanted to see how the two wires compared.

So I hope that has cleared up why I chose to go with a single wire

So here I am with a mix of cables 

My interconnects

• use a single 16 gauge solid UP-OCC Teflon Helix neutral 
• with a bare 2 x 18 gauge solid UP-OCC  in teflon tube signal wire

MY speaker cables 

• use a single 10 gauge mil-spec Helix neutral wire
• with a bare 2 x 16 gauge UP-OCC copper in a teflon tube signal wire

My heavy duty power cables

• use a single Helix 12 gauge stranded UP-OCC Teflon neutral
• with a bare 2 x 14 gauge solid UP-OCC in teflon tube Live wire

My Source power cables

• use a 2 x12 gauge stranded Mil-Spec neutral
• with a bare 2 x 16 gauge solid UP-OCC in teflon tube Live wire

The sound my system now produces is stunning - better than any system I have auditioned

What has surprised me about the latest adaptions on the helix geometry is just how good the sound now is and I find it hard to believe that adding a second UP-OCC neutral to my Interconnects or my power cables will improve the sonic performance in a significant way - so I do not plan on changing my cables in the near future - I want to enjoy listening to some music - instead of listening for improvements.

But by all means, somebody try the dual UP-OCC neutral on the Interconnects and the dual stranded UP-OCC copper on the power cables and see if they sound significantly better then a single UP-OCC neutral.

Hope that answers the many questions raised in the last few posts

Regards - Steve

@ yesiamjohn - regarding your statement...

Come on lets not spread false info. SPDIF, USB, etc. all need to be impedance matched. This would be a bad idea for those types of cables.

Then - if you possess the knowledge to make such a statement please explain why many people who have actually tried the helix cables, prefer them to some very expensive impedance matched cables from some of the top brands.

They actually trust their ears and not what others "believe to be so"

It would appear that you have NOT tried the helix cables, so I suspect your thoughts are based on conjecture and "old school" thinking and not on actual trial and observations

I have received very negative comments from many others in the past, but the FACT remains, the Helix cables are outperforming some TOTL cables from established brands like Nordoist and Inakustik, to name but a few

You are of course free to believe whatever you want, but it is you that will be missing out on some very fine cables

Also, as you may have read, this thread is for the benefit of others that are interested in the continued development of the Helix design.

Regards - Steve

@mawe - my thoughts...

• the shielding should "drain" any EMI generated noise created by the current passing through the LIVE conductor
• this should result in less noise being induced into the neutral conductor
• this should result in a quieter background
• the same shielding technique is used on each twisted pair in CAT8 cable, to achieve higher bandwidth transmissions

You might want to try the same thing, but apply the Air adaption i.e.

• 2x 16 AWG Neotech BARE OCC solid core wire inside a teflon tube
  
• then insert that assembly inside a cotton tube
• and finally insert that assembly into the shielding
• NOTE: do not use the teflon tape

This would improve the overall performance and probably improve on the quiet background

I assume you are only connecting the shield at the mains plug end of the power cable (i.e. a floating shield) and NOT at both ends.

Keep us posted - steve

@pindac regarding...

Chassis mount connectors - These would be good ifoyu like Silver plated copper
Silver plated female XLR chassis mount socket | Hifi Collective

Otherwise go for the Gold plated Copper

RE:  Any thought on adopting this as a approach will be well received.

You can use the Helix design internally - one DIYer I know of replaced all his power wires in all components with the helix and was very impressed with the outcome
- so the Helix XLR leads should also work very well

RE: If the Double Helix is a Good Idea to be used within the Power Amp's then this again will be replicated within the Pre' Builds.
Any thoughts are welcome.

Again - I see no reason not to use the helix XLR wherever possible

Is it really necessary though?

Well - my answer to that is - if you want the very best fidelity and money is not object - why not

I have a power distribution box and my last modification was replacing the 1 foot of neutral wire with UP-OCC bare copper (the Air Adaption) inside teflon tube and it made a discernible improvement for the better.

But as you may have read in this thread, not everybody likes the UP-OCC wire and particularly the "Air" adaption.

So some changes may not be for everyone.

Hope that helps - Steve

@divertiti  - WRT:  I only have 18ga unocc, do you think the shield/return needs to be thicker like 16ga?

Unless you are specifically performing  comparisons of wire you would not notice any difference there "might" be. Any difference would be miniscule

UP-OCC wire is amazing stuff, so there would be very little if any difference between 16 gauge and 18 gauge when used for the neutral

Use the 18 gauge - it will sound fantastic !

Regards - Steve

@in_shore -
WRT...’

A question to anyone , has anyone tried Furutechs F1-50s NCF ends on their helix power cords ?

I would have to guess that by the lack of responses to your question, nobody has "invested" in the Furutech connectors.

I have tried a few brands of plugs and the silver plated copper from Sonar Quest provided the best sound on my system and to my ears.

The brands I have tried in order of preference...

1. Sonarquest Silver plated Copper
2. Vanguard Silver plated Copper - a very close second to Sonar Quest
3. Oyaide Gold plated deoxidized Phosphorus Bronze
4. Marinco brass
5. Wattgate brass

Furutech products are manufactured to the highest standards for extreme applications and they price them accordingly, but for Audio applications, I consider many of their products as "overbuilt" - i.e. it’s a bit like using a sledgehammer to drive in a thumb tack

But if expense is no object - go for it :-)

Hope that helps - Steve

@divertiti - WRT; Cable length...

Since many people on this forum have reported better results wit cables longer than 1.5 meters you migfht think it would be the case with all cables.

However, we are talking about the Helix geometry with KLEI Harmony RCA plugs

The RCA plugs are what makes any SPDIF cable sound better, because with those you can get great performance even with a shorter cable.

Then factor in the Helix Geometry and you have yourself an extremely good cable

I have used Helix cables as a SPDIF link with the harmony RCA’s at 2 meter, 1 meter, and 0.5 meter, all identical wire and plugs and I could not tell the difference.

My last SPDIF was in my system for around 2 years and was the 0.5 meter version with

1. Silver Harmony RCA’s
2. SIGNAL: 1 x 24 gauge Neotech solid silver with Teflon insulation
3. NEUTRAL: 1 x 16 gauge silver plated mil-spec wire

If I were to build one today, knowing what has been posted in this thread alone, I would probably fabricate as follows for the very best performance

1. KLEI Absolute Harmony RCA’s
2. SIGNAL: 2 x 18 gauge solid, bare UP-OCC twisted - inside a teflon tube
3. An optional cotton sleeve over the Signal conductor assembly (personal preference)
4. NEUTRAL: 1 x 16 gauge solid, bare UP-OCC with Teflon insulation
5. and make it the length that suites your application

The only other option that may make a difference would be to use 2 x 18 gauge bare UP-OCC solid silver for the SIGNAL wire

Alas, I have to rely on others like @wig , for their excellent feedback and observations regarding SPDIF cables because I no longer have them in my system

Hope that helps - Steve

@mawe - try Parts Conenxion for "naked" UP-OCC

https://www.partsconnexion.com/occ6n-copper-hook-up-wire.html.

They carry most gauges suited to the Helix Cables

But I am still not certain whether the "Air" adaption on the neutral is worth the effort

Regards - Steve

@divertiti - RE:

One thing I’m unclear on is how to coil the 16ga neutral if it is being created using the air tube method? If the bare wire is free floating inside the tube, how do you coil it with the drill?

I’ve never made and "Air" neutral.

Personally for me, it poses too much of a problem inserting such a long wire into the teflon tube

The signal wire on my 9ft speaker cables took some effort inserting the wire

1. the wire needs to be as straight as possible
2. the tube has to be held as straight as possible

To coil it with a drill I would probably

1. cut the wire 2-3 inched longer than the tube
2. first tape the wire to the rod and then tape the tube to the rod
3. then wind as normal

I would select a tube that is just a little bigger than a single strand fo bare wire

RE: -

has there been a consensus on which sounds better:
1. Putting two bare UPOCC conductors in a twisted pair inside a single PTFE tube
or
2. Insert each bare UPOCC conductor into its own PTFE tube first then twist the two tubed run into a twisted pair?

Electrons have a propensity to stay within the physical boundary of each strand of wire and only "jumps" to another strand if the amount of energy being transferred exceeds the "capacity" of that strand (or a faster route to ground is provided).

The signal in Interconnects is "low energy" and using 2 x 18 gauge wire would probably result in very few electrons making the jump between the two strands.

For speaker and power cables I use a separate tube for each wire

For Interconnects I simply twist the wires together first and insert into a single tube. This allows for a little more "wiggle room" in order to to tighten the coil down around the signal wire in order to install the RCA housing without any difficulty.

But if I have to guess - having each wire in a separate tube would probably sound "MARGINALLY" better.

Hope that helps

Regards - Steve