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@tomic601 - A friend of mine made a 24 ft long Helix cable
He actually used a 24ft long piece of COAX
- stripped the outer sleeve and the shielding.
- wound transformer wire around the outside of the insulation for the helix coil
- added RCA's - not sure if he used Harmony RCA's
He was very impressed with the resulting sound, but it took him and his wife to fabricate the cable.
Hope that helps |
Can anyone throw some light on this conundrum please
- it's bugging me :-)
I decided to replace the Live conductor inside my power distribution box.
- the neutral wires are the same 2 x 12 gauge Mil-Spec wire I use in the power cables
- the wire being replaced was 12 gauge Duelund Tinned Copper.with PolyCast insulation
- the wire replacing the Duelund is 4 x 18 gauge Mundorf Solid Silver/Gold with cotton sleeve insulation
The length of the wire is approximately 12"
- I was very surprised to hear any improvement at all
- but I observed an audible improvement in dynamic response.
The method of connection of the wire inside the distribution box was the same - only the actual wire changed.
Here are the different wires I use in the cables connecting the electrical pathway...
- Duelund Tinned copper - let's call it wire type "A"
- Solid copper VH Audio - lets call it wire type "B"
- Solid Silver VH Audio - let's call it wire type "C"
- Solid Silver/;gold MUNDORF - let's call it wire type "D"
- And the neutral throughout the entire system is 2 x 12 gauge Silver plated Mil-Spec and all cables have the Helix Geometry
The change occurred only in the electrical pathway of the Source components, which consists of...
- an extension cable - 11 ft of wire type "A"
- a power cable to the distribution box- 5 ft of wire type "B"
- Distribution box - 1 ft of wire type "D" - previously 1 ft of wire type "A"
- a power cable - 4 ft of wire type "C"
SO - originally I thought that Dynamic performance was related to the conductivity of of the various wires in the electrical pathway i.e. how fast the power propagates through the wire
If that was the case, then the "limiting factor" should be the wire used in the extension cord - wire type "A"
However, replacing just a small piece of wire type "A in the distribution box with wire type "D" , i.e. a wire that has better conductivity properties, resulted in improved dynamic response, even though the wire in the electrical pathway preceding it is slower.
So my question is - why does that small piece of wire make any difference at all?
Any thoughts would be appreciated
Cheers
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@b_mueller - Thanks for the feedback,
especially pertaining to the use ferrites - good to know.
I've seen other posts that promote them, but I have never used them on my audio system cables.
Cheers - Steve |
QUICK UPDATE: I’ve just replaced the live conductor in my 11 ft Helix Geometry extension cable, with a 12 gauge solid copper wire from Neotech - the wire replaced was 12 gauge Duelund tinned copper with polycast insulation I purchased the wire from HiFi collective... https://www.hificollective.co.uk/wire/soct-neotech-solid-core-copper-wire.html "Neotech`s SOCT type wire is 99.999% high purity UP-OCC copper solid core wire, sheathed in red, heat resistant Teflon. Can be used for speaker wire, mains cable and general hook up wire"
I removed the Teflon insulation and inserted the bare wire into a cotton sleeve to reduce the Dielectric Constant to around 1.3 - down from 2.1 of teflon The wire is quite stiff, i.e. compared to 4 strands of the 18 gauge Solid copper from VH Audio that I have used in other power cables, but since the description states it is suitable for power cables I assume it is pliable enough to take some reasonable amount of flexing without breaking The immediate results were quite noticeable - improved clarity and dynamics - improved control and a little deeper bottom end. Now I’m not about to replace the live conductors in my heavier duty cables, but if anyone is constructing new power cables, this wire works out to be a little more affordable and I believe it would perform a little better than the wire from VH Audio, due to it being a single conductor. My reasoning: - The wire from VH Audo is 18 gauge, so it requires 4 strands to make a 12 gauge live conductor. From this link: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wire-gauges-d_419.html - 12 gauge single core current carrying capacity = 34 amps - 12 gauge 4-6 core current carrying capacity = 16 amps So there should be improvements in the handling of transient peaks. Initially, I only used stranded wires, for improved flexibility, but it is quite evident that solid wire is superior, i.e. provided you take reasonable care when flexing (no tight 90 degree bends) Regards - Steve. |
@sns and @rx8man - thanks very much for posting your helix experience - it’s great to hear what others are trying and to see that the helix design is getting some very positive feedback from even more Audiogon members. But wait - there is another Power Cord Update !!! - you just had to know this one was coming :-) As per my posting above RE: my 11 ft extension cable - I tried the same modification on the power cable from the 11 ft extension cable to my amp - so now I have 12 gauge solid core Neotech OCC copper from the outlet to my amp I took the same approach - I replaced the 4 strands of 28 gauge Vh Audio solid copper with a single strand of the 12 gauge Neotech wire. - I removed the teflon insulation and replaced it with Cotton sleeve (see previous post) This really opened up the performance of my Bryston B135 integrated amp to new levels of detail - larger image in all dimensions - more focused image - better low end control and details - improved clarity - better dynamics The improvements were barely noticeable immediately, but really started to improve after about 2 days 24/7 playback (I don’t have a burner) The PC seemed to have settled after about 5 days playing - I haven’t noticed any further improvement However - i am not sure this level of improvement will be achieved using separates, since I believe most of these improvements are achieved within the pre-amp section of the B135 and not so much in the two power amps. FYI... - the B135 is in fact three separate amplifiers in a single case - each has it’s own power supply (3 separate transformers, smoothing capacitors etc...) I believe @wig is updating one of his power cables to this latest development - I look forward to reading his feedback I am planning the same update to the power cable that attaches the extension cable to the power distribution box, which distributes power to my two source components. Just waiting on the Neotech wire from the UK - I will post my findings in about 2-3 of weeks. It will be very interesting :-) Regards - Steve |
@wig re:... The coating on my Neotech was left intact. Are you referring to the Teflon insulation? If the answer is Yes - are you planning on trying the Neotech wire, replacing the Teflon insulation with a Cotton sleeve? FYI - all of my solid state components run between 5-7 degrees Celsius cooler with Helix Power cables Thanks for the update - Steve |
@wig - your observations WRT any improvements observed when you replace the Teflon with Cotton sleeve will be most valuable.
Based on my own observations with similar power related approaches, I think you should experience a discernable improvement in clarity, image definition and artist separation/focus.
As always, your efforts and observations are most valuable and are very much appreciated.
Regards - Steve |
@mawe - the price you show is correct.
My sincere apologies to everyone
I clicked on the wrong link by mistake
Taking exchange rate into account the UK price translates to $28.28 / meter, which does in fact make Sonic Craft the cheaper of the two.
Thanks for picking that up
Regards - Steve
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NEOTECH Wire Update A fellow DIYer has just made me aware of this company http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/NOTE: the pricing on this site is Euro's - but I have convert to UK pounds below to keep comparisons simple They have the 12 gauge Neotech
Ultra Pure 7N Onho Continuous Cast (UP-OCC).
wire - but with PVC insulation priced at
£17.34 / meter including VAT. i.e. More affordable than the Teflon version. However the dielectric constant of PVC is 4.0 (as opposed to Teflon's 2.1) But If you are planning on using the cotton or silk sleeve in place of the the insulation it would be a significantly cheaper option. The DIYer also raised concerns about using cotton sleeve, since he is in Europe where the voltage is 230v. I recommended that he use this slightly larger Teflon tube. https://www.takefiveaudio.com/products/473-ptfe-10-tubing/ The tube would have air between a large portion of the surface of the wire wire and the side of the Teflon tube, unlike a molded insulation. The combined Dielectric constant (i.e. air + teflon) would probably be in the range of 1.5-1.6, which is much better than a molded Teflon insulation and only marginally worse than cotton or silk. Since I have not used this wire I cannot confirm that the PVC wire is (performance wise) identical to the Teflon version, but it is UP-OCC. Regards - Steve |
Me again :-) I’ve just tried a couple of things - a 14 gauge Silver Plated Mil-spec wire as the neutral on an interconnect and the results were very similar to the double 16 gauge. But I had to use a 1/8" rod, which provided only just enough space to get the 2 x 18 gauge VH audio wires to pass through the coil
- I tried the Classic Harmony RCA on my best cable. While this is the entry level RCA plug from KLE Innovations, its performance was quite surprising, i.e. compared to the Absolute Harmony that it replaced.
Based on how the performance of the Classic Harmony compared to the Absolute harmony, I believe it is probably as good, if not slightly better than the Silver Harmony. It left me very confused .. - why would KLE Innovations introduce a product that performs this good, since it appears to compete with the Copper and Silver Harmony RCA’s Compared to the Absolute Harmony it lacked just a little in the following areas... - Dynamics - not quite as crisp
- Image size was a tad smaller and lacked a little precision i.e. not as focused
- Clarity & details were a little less accurate
It might be a good, affordable solution for Digital SPDIF cables ? Unfortunately, all of my streaming is accomplished view Ethernet, so I cannot verify that It is definitely targeted to a more budget conscious buyer - BUT, it definitely will not disappoint. It’s a very good RCA plug. Regards - Steve |
@grannyring - I think Jeff has it right.
Initially, I was asked to review each of the plugs as they were released. But after testing each of the plugs I always thought the Copper Harmony and the Pure harmony were not really needed. Then they came out with the Classic and I was quite puzzled..
The Classic Harmony I have burning in at this moment played some unusual tricks in the first 30 hours (i.e. compared to the rest of the lineup).
Initially they sounded very nice. Then they became quite "in your face" and a bit heavy in the bottom end between 10-20 hours, but they are now settling down to that nice neutral performance that I had been expecting from a Harmony RCA
I’ll give them a week to burn in and report back. But right now, they seem to be a little less detailed and not as focused as the Absolute Harmony.
For other readers I would like to clarify that the differences between each of the harmony plug models is "marginal’ in the context of general listening. But in a controlled audition with select tracks, the improvements in "fine details" between each model are quite discernible.
But compared to the competition, they are an extremely good RCA plug.
Regards - Steve |
UPDATE- RE: the Classic RCA.
After about 100 hours there seemed to be no more improvements, but then the wires had been used for some weeks, so it was just the RCA’s and solder that needed burn-in
While this is a very capable RCA plug i.e. compared to the competition from other brands, it does not provide the same level of performance as the Pure harmony and Absolute harmony models.
Based on my previous auditions of the Silver harmony and Copper Harmony - I believe the performance to be between the Copper Harmony and the Silver harmony i.e. ON MY CABLES...
- bass was as deep, but a little less detailed & textured
- the top end was a little less crisp and lacked some fine details
- image was not quite as large and lost a little of the focus
- dynamics were a little slower - they lacked that crispness of the Absolute Harmony
- overall clarity was very good
- Venue acoustics, while present, lost a little of their sparkle
- there was no change in tonal quality - very neutral
I would definitely use the Classic RCA on my A/V system for either Analogue or Digital IC’s, or on a good second/office system.
If you have not tried the Harmony range, the Classic Harmony RCA will give you a very good indication of the sound you can achieve with the other RCA’s in the Harmony lineup
Hope you find this useful - Steve
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@grannyring - congrats on the upgrade to VH Audio Solid silver. Sounds like it was worth the effort and expense.
I've used a single strand of the VH Audio 18 gauge for the live conductor in the Power Cables to the source components - today I heard their benefit when I upgraded my last power cable - what an improvement!
@rx8man - glad to hear you too are having a very positive Helix experience.
The Helix excitement just keeps building - thanks to everyone for your efforts and courage for making the Leap to "The Helix"
And a special thanks to those members that are building the cables for other people - much appreciated.
Regards - Steve. |
Power Cable Update.
So today I just completed the last Power Cable upgrade - to the Neotech OCC 12 gauge solid copper.
So basically from the outlet I have...
- 1 x 11ft extension cables with 12 gauge Neotech wire in cotton insulation, that has a dual outlet in a box on the end of it
- 1 x 12 gauge Neotech OCC 12 gauge with cotton insulation into my amp
- 1 x 12 gauge Neotech
OCC 12 gauge with PVC insulation into my Power Distribution box
From the distribution box I have
- 1 x 18 gauge solid silver VH Audio to my Phono stage
- 1 x 18 gauge solid silver VH Audio to my Bluesound Node 2i
The neutral and ground wires are all 12 gauge Silver plated Mil-soec
The change from the last report is - I now use bare Neotech wire with a PVC insulation...
- I purchased the Neotech with Teflon insulation and stripped the insulation
- The PVC insulation is simply clear plastic pipe from the hardware store - cost me $1.35 CDN for 5 ft - much cheeper than Teflon tube
The tube is about 5 mm thick with an internal diameter of 3mm
I did try setting it alight to ensure it was not a fire hazard - it resisted the test nicely.
Bottom line - the system again instantly responded with an even better and more spacious image - pretty much 3D, including the perception of height.
I would assume teflon would have the same effect - but at around 30 times the price - ouch!
I think the advantage here is the amount of Air around the bare wire.
The biggest advantage of using the PVC pipe - the live wire is now better protected from accidental spills
I think I'll change the other PC's that have cotton insulation - just to be safe :-)
Regards - Steve
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@grannyring - re:... Speaker cables would be far too expensive for me with this wire. Since my experience replacing the VH Audio with the Neotech copper in my power cables has been so positive, I’m wondering if the same improvements could be achieved with the speaker cables. i.e. the latest power able upgrade replaced 4 x 18 gauge VH Audio with Air Lok insulation with 1 x 12 gauge Neotech OCC Copper bare inside a PVC tube - the results are stunning Would you have any thoughts as to which of the following options might be the most beneficial? #1 - Two strands of 18 gauge Neotech £6.92+vat+p&p per meter - basically replacing the same gauge Vh Audio wire #2 - One strand of 14 gauge Neotech £13.86+vat+p&p per meter - basically increasing the gauge in a single wire to double that of the 2 x 18 gauge. #3 - One strand of 12 gauge Neotech £21.76+vat+p&p - I think this is overkill for speaker cables, but the improved performance of my power cable was quite compelling Note: - I included prices prices just as a comparison @rx8man - re:... Helix Power Cable made by member Aniwolfe, that I use for the main line coming into my Inakustik conditioner that works wonders eliminating AC noise issues, What power cables do you currently have from the power conditioner to source components? Have you tried the switching them with the Helix cable? Just curious ? UPDATE FOR OTHER READERS... Here is a link to the PVC tube I used to insulate the Live wire on the latest power cable upgrade... https://www.homedepot.com/p/UDP-1-8-in-I-D-x-3-16-in-O-D-x-100-ft-Clear-Vinyl-Tubing-with-Dispenser-... Whilst the temperature range (i.e. up to 160 vs. 200 Celsius) may not be up to Teflon standards, at those temperatures the tube just becomes very pliable and unsuitable for use as a pressure/water hose. As a test - I applied considerably more heat using one of those hand gas lighters that have the "blue flame" - the tube did ignite briefly after quite a long period of time withstanding the intense heat and then went out as soon as I took the flame away. So for me, this pipe makes a very good insulator for Power and speaker cables i.e. if you want to use bare wire for the signal/live wires. At least it WILL NOT present any issues if someone spills coffee on the cable as it would if cotton sleeve is the insulator :-) Also - here's the link for the Neotech PVC insulated wire that is cheaper than the Teflon http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/neotech/neotech-up-occ-hook-up-chassis-wire-page.htmRegards - Steve |
@grannyring - thanks for the thoughts - as always very useful.
Initially my thought was to try 2 x 18 gauge because it would be a direct comparison of the two brands of wires
BUT - After giving this more thought, I think I am going to try a 2 x 16 gauge Neotech AND, as a separate test - a single strand of 14 Gauge Neotech - both bare wire inside the PVC tube that I used in the power cable.
I’m thinking both these approaches will probably perform better than 2 x 18 gauge Vh Audio wires
Will get back to you once I get the wire(s)
Cheers
@rx8man - thanks for the update on your power cables
So I was wondering if you had tried replacing the Helic PC with one of the Mad Scientist cables to connect the power conditioner to the wall outlet and use the Helix PC for either a source or your amp.
If you have tried this what were your observations -preferences?
I ask because based on the various things I have tried, having the Helix Power cables connected to a component (vs. the power conditioner) has generally provided better sound.
But there are many things at play in a system, so this may not be the case in your system
Regards - Steve
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@rx8man - I didn't realize that - that just makes it "messy" - no [problem :-)
Enjoy - Steve |
Power Cable UPDATE: So today’s venture replaced the Cotton Sleeve on the power cable to my amp with the PVC tube mentioned above.
The cable had been completely burned in
- I removed one of the Spade connectors
- inserted the wire into the tube
- placed heat shrink with adhesive at both ends to "seal" the tube
- reattached spade connector and the mains connectors
The improvements, although quite small, were immediately discernible.
- more detailed venue acoustics
- improved clarity, textures and harmonics
- more precise image focus and artist placement
Orchestral tracks sound more spacious and focused and Pipe Organ music (in a church venue) exhibited an improved "perception of height".
I believe there is a downside to being able to reproduce music to this level of detail...
- The "engineered" venue acoustics on (some) tracks that were recorded in the studio have a tendency to now sound a bit "fake" - there is just too much echo/reverberations to be believable
However, the tracks recorded at the venue sound amazingly lifelike. e.g. there is more separation between the the various sections of the Orchestra in width and depth.
Considering the price of this upgrade - About $1.30 - I would say it was worth it. :-)
It would seem the key is to reduce the amount of surface area of the wire that touches the insulation. The Dielectric Constant (Dk) of cotton is around 1.3 and Air is around 1.1
I think the PVC tube is now my insulation of choice when using bare wire for the conductor. Teflon would probably have the same effect, but is considerably more expensive in comparison
I think I have probably squeezed the last ounce of performance out of my copper power cables - I have no plans to try the same thing with the Neutral wire, it would be far to complicated a venture.
Speaker cables are up next for the exact same treatment..
- I’ve decided to try a single 14 gauge bare Neotech UP-OCC wire
- inside the same PVC tube
Will keep you all posted in a couple of weeks
Regards Steve
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Speaker Cable Update. Bare 14 gauge Neotech Solid wire inside PVC tube...
First - I would NOT recommend the PVC tube for any cable over 6-7ft long, simply because the PVC is quite supple and "grippy", which makes inserting the bare wire quite troublesome. I believe the Teflon tube would not suffer the same issue and would probably be just as effective..My cables are around 9ft long and it took some effort to get the wire in the tube.
So, right from the get-go the 14 gauge Neotech (bare wire) in the PVC tube sounded better than the 2 x 18 gauge Vh Audio wire...
- Bigger image
- improved Artist separation and focus - more space around artists
- slightly faster dynamics
- improved clarity
- improved details
That lasted for about 12 hours and then things started to get a little weird...
The image started going a little crazy, with some instruments darting around the image. Also, standing 4ft to the right of center, the central voice appeared to come from the side wall but not from reflections off the wall. But in the listening position it was perfect.
With the VH Audio wire, standing in the same position the artist was always in the center.
So today was day4 (approaching 100 hours) of the burn-in process and I am glad to report the rather flakey image issues have been "cured" and I think things will improve further.
With this wire I now have a full appreciation of what @grannyring refers to as :the "wall of sound".
- the image extends in every dimension and very "3D like"
- improved Artist separation and focus - really is like "being there"
- dynamics are the most realistic yet experienced
- improved clarity - again, like being there
- improved details - you’ll definitely hear new things on pretty much every track.
- speakers? - what speakers? - totally invisible!
The only concern I have with going the bare wire route is whether the bare copper will tarnish/corrode inside the PVC (or even Teflon) tubing over time and impact sound quality.
I did "seal" each end with a 1" piece of heat shrink (with adhesive on the inside) in an attempt to at least slow down the oxidizing process.
Perhaps leaving the Teflon insulation in place might prove to be the best route?
- the question is how much does the Teflon (molded onto the wire) impact sound quality?
I’ll let you know if I ever have to replace the bare wire :-)
BTW - finally fully experiencing that "wall of sound", makes this upgrade well worth the cost and effort. It is immense, enveloping and very compelling.
Until the next upgrade :-)
Regards - Steve.
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WRT bare wire - the one advantage of the PVC tube is it is perfectly clear, so I can see any oxidation. The wire is very bright right now and easily seen.
I'm wondering if coating the wire with a very thin coat varnish or urethane would work?
Anyone know what the coating is on transformer wire?
- That is very thin and probably lowers the impact of insulation
Cheers - Steve.
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@rx8man - thanks for the post - the enamel "insulation" has Dielectric Constant of around 3.2, which is higher than Teflon. But now I am left wondering if the thickness of the insulation plays a significant role.
Like @stringreen posted - It would be nice if Chris at VH Audio made his wire in 12 or 14 gage
Perhaps if we all ask for it?
Cheers - Steve
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Speaker Cable Update - with just over 250 hours on the cables they are settling down nicely
There were some moments where things got "Twilight Zone" strange, but they did not last
The improvement I was most intrigued by was the perception of three dimensional space, which has improved to the point where reverberations, apparently from overhead is making the perception of being in the concert hall that much more realistic.
Dynamics, clarity and details are improved over the 14 gauge Neotech wire and with the improved imaging and focus adds to the perceived reality.
But I do find the amount of bass did not change from the 2 x 18 gauge solid copper from VH Audio. However, the amount of texture within low frequencies on certain tracks has improved considerably, which made the bass sound a little "lighter", but more enjoyable
I am/will monitor the brightness of the copper wire inside the PVC tubing. I am hoping that sealing each end of the tube will prove to be an effective deterrent to the oxidizing process.
Hopefully by the time the bare copper has oxidized, an alternative to Teflon Insulation will be available - perhaps foamed Teflon ???
On the positive side - the move by cable companies to the more advanced insulation types is trickling down to the parts providers, so there is a real possibility of foamed Teflon becoming more of a standard in the near future.
With that - I will sign off :-)
Regards - Steve
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@facten - welcome to the Helix Club :-)
As @wig said - give them a couple of hundred hours burn-in for a stable sound - they will still improve a little after that - generally a bit more in the area of fine details.
They can exhibit some strange behavior between 20-60 hours, but that will subside.
Power and speaker cables also have a very positive impact - but the IC's are a nice place to start.
Regards - Steve
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@wig + @grannyring - Glad you are still finding improvements :-)
POWER CABLE UPDATE...
So I had some Neotech 12 gauge left over and decided to upgrade the live conductor on one of my A/V power cables.
NOTE: I did NOT remove the insulation of the Neotech wire as I have with other PC’s
But before installing it in my A/V system, I figured I would try it out on my Bluesound Node 2i streamer - which originally had a PC with a 1 x 18 gauge Solid Silver wire from VH Audio.
One again, the 12 gauge Neotech outperformed the VH Audio wire...
- larger more spacious and accurate image
- improved bass detail and texture
- improved clarity and details
It seems there was no impact to clarity and details, so for safety and longevity I will be using the Neotech wire WITH its Teflon Insulation from now on.
What about the existing cables with bare Neotech wire?
- the copper seems to be holding up very well on the cables where I have removed the insulation
- I keep a piece of bare wire on my audio stand to see how it tarnishes
- my cables have a clear PVC tube over the bare wire so I can see it
- the bare wire on the audio stand has started to darken
- the bare wire inside the tube is still very bright
It seems that provided you seal the ends of the tube using heat-shrink (with adhesive) it will slow the oxidizing process.
But since it appears to make very little difference in sound quality - leave the Teflon in place :-)
Regards
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I forgot to mention - the PC (above) was ultimately for my 200 watt A/V system subwoofer.
Now - the internal 200 watt amp grabs the voice coil and controls the 8" long throw speaker cone the way it was designed to do, delivering crisp, clean textured bass tones and LFE’s.
The improvement was most noticeable :-)
Regards - Steve |
AND FINALLY...
- a 2 x 18 gauge Solid copper(Teflon) Neotech wire, replacing the 2 x 18 gauge Solid copper(AirLok) VH Audio wire in the interconnects!!!
Yep - after the success with the power and speaker cables I just had to try it on the IC's - and very glad I did.:-)
Both the VH audio wire and the Neotech 18 gauge solid copper wires are stunning performers...
- dynamic, articulate, amazing clarity and details, larger than life Imaging and focused sound state with a reality seldom matched by TOTL cables.
So why was I glad I tried them? one word - smooooooth !!!
This was probably the most difficult audition I have ever undertaken...
- there was definitely "something" about these cables, but putting my finger on it was extremely difficult.
All of the usual metrics (listed above) seemed to swing back and forth
- dynamics were a little crisper on the Neotech
- details seemed a little clearer on the Vh Audio
- image was expansive and focused for both, but that seemed to change slightly from track to track
Even my best albums were not making the difference convincing, but there was something with the Neotech that kept pulling me back to them.
Finally, it took a listen to Ricky Lee Jones an Diana Krall to nail it - WARMTH !!!
Warmth is one of those metrics that can also be interpreted as a lack of upper end detail - but that detail was still there but with a softer more realistic presentation.
Once I had locked into that presentation, all became clear
- the mid tones seemed softer, fuller and warmer,
- the highs, such as cymbals were less harsh and had a fullness to them,
- the bass lines were not louder, they just revealed a deeper texture
- and the vocal sibilance much more palatable.
- Basically - more "body" to the music across the board
Now I must stress these changes are small they took a while for me to nail them down, but now I have, it makes listening that much more pleasurable because I know what to listen for and it's now the music is a little less fatiguing, not that it was an issue with the VH Audio - it's just that much more more pleasant now.
So this ends my Neotech Journey, maybe. The performance of the copper wire is now making me take a second look at their solid silver wire.
Which sorta completes the circle, because the first quality wire I used was 24 gauge Solid Silver from Neotech - go figure :-)
Hope you find the information helpful
Regards - Steve
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@goose - all updates will be there next week - I was waiting for the upgrade to the IC's before making changes to the site update.
The content of the site is still relevant, it is just missing the Neotech wire. There are no changes to the fabrication approach, just the wire used for the signal or live conductors
Basically - I will now be including the Neotech wire on my site, in addition to the VH Audio and Mundorf wires.
The only difference in this thread - I mentioned that I removed the insulation on the power and speaker cables.
I will not be covering this approach because of the related tarnish/oxidation issues, which I am finding are too difficult to overcome for the average DIYer.
I believe leaving the insulation in place is not too detrimental to overall system performance and I do not want to recommend an approach if it means that the wire has to be changed in a couple of years after it has turned green and impacting performance
As @grannyring just posted above, we are now talking about very small personal preferences and system synergies...
- On my system I prefer the Neotech
- On his system he prefers the VH Audio
- and if we were able to listen to each others systems we would probably agree on the choices we have each made for those systems.
There is very little difference in performance between these two wires - they are both excellent choices.
Perhaps combining them throughout the system might be the right choice for your system.
@oldears - agreed, Furutech does make some very good solid core wires. I recently heard from a fellow DIYer about how pleased he was when he upgraded his power cables with a 12 gauge Furutech solid core wire.
There are just so many wires - and so little time :-)
Hope that helps - Steve
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@divertiti - Unfortunately I am unable to answer your questions because I have no XLR cables in my system
I think that perhaps @wig and @grannyring can provide better input on this matter.
Or perhaps there is someone else that can provide more concrete feedback?
Regards - Steve
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WRT - "I have been able to uncoil the TFA wire once coiled."
An easy approach - I simply place the coil back on a rod and then pull on the wire straight - effectively reversing the winding process.
That way the strands of the Mil-spec wire does not get knotted up with any extra twists.
Regards - Steve |
@divertiti - Personally - I would not mix the bare wire and PTFE wire.
Mainly because I like to have everything "the same"
But if you think about it, the signal in the PTFE wire could be subject to the noise generated by the insulation. The bare wire (in cotton?) would not be subject to the same "level" of noise
But we are talking tiny tiny TINY details here - inaudible? - perhaps.
How much of an issue would this be? - it really depends how sensitive your ears are, but unless you tried both approaches you would not know.
It can also be a bit of a mind game, in which case it depends on how concerned you are about getting the absolute best sound.
After all - we all suffer different levels of ANAL :-)
I did have one set of IC’s with two bare wires twisted together inside a single cotton sleeve and they sounded exceptional. I think that would be my choice in this case.
Hope that helps - Steve
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@divertiti - what connector will the cable be plugged into?
- Balanced XLR style
- Single ended BNC connectors
Thanks |
@divertiti - unfortunately this is definitely uncharted territory for me. But since you are making a Helix XLR cable, would it be possible to try that cable as the AES EBU cable to see if it works? Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to explore every possible use for the Helix Geometry. I found this basic explanation of high frequency transmission problems online... At high frequencies (people use to say RF for Radio Frequencies) all cables behave (or misbehave) as transmission lines.
Get a long pipe and talk into it, that’s a transmission line. If it is long enough, you’ll hear some echo coming back from the other end. That’s a problem.
Whenever you send some stuff in a transmission line it will always travel at a certain velocity (the speed of sound in the case of you talking in a pipe, the speed of light modulo impedance, dielectric constant etc, in a cable).
So, if your signal is fast enough, that this propagation effects are not negligible anymore, you’ll say it’s a transmission line, and you have to treat it like this. It is not something difficult, just a part of your design.
For instance take a SATA cable. If you send some low frequency signals in it, it’s a cable. If you send 3 billion bits per second in it, it’s a transmission line, since there are several bits in the cable at any given time. Of course you’ll want to minimize echoes if you wanna use that to transmit some useful information.
So if you put a resistor at the end of the cable, which has a certain value, you will get optimal damping and optimal transfer of power : all the power that flows in the transmission line will end up in the resistor instead of bouncing back to the source and messing everything. The value of this resistor is your characteristic transmission line impedance. It can be calculated (depending on geometry etc) or it can be measured. I do know that a Helix Interconnect cable used for analogue purposes can also be used as a SPDIF cable without using a 75 Ohm RCA plug and it performs extremely well - i.e. better than most purpose built 75 Ohm cables. - Perhaps it’s the Helix Geometry that overcomes some issue in a standard 75 Ohm cable The Helix Geometry is very different from that of a "standard cable" - so does it suffer from the same reflection issues - or is the highest frequency it can handle without any issues, high enough to handle those supported by a 110 ohm AES EBU connection without any problems? I would try it - What’s the worst that can happen? - it sounds bad? But then again - it might not :-) If you do try it, please post your observations. I like to understand the limitations of the Helix Geometry as well as its good points. Sorry I could not be of more help - Steve |
@divertiti - Thanks for verifying the Helix IC as a SPDIF - it’s been a while since I used SPDIF, so knowing it works with great components is very much appreciated. WRT..
Now the question is do you use double run for Spdif or keep it single run?
Good question - I’ve been asked that question many times i.e. before the Double shotgun version was tried, and I always said "a single run" But after the success of the Double Shotgun - perhaps two would work better? But then again we are dealing with digital signal that represents 0’s and 1’s , which I believe is not as critical as analogue cables, so perhaps two wires is overkill - I would stick with one. The other factor is my old SPDIF did not use the same solid copper or solid silver wire that are currently in use, so it was probably not as "capable" from an analogue perspective, but it still performed very nicely as a SPDIF interconnect. @Grannyring is using a twisted pair for D+ and D- on his USB cable Also is there an optimal length for spdif cables? I assume you are asking about HELIX geometry SPDIF cables? There probably is, but because the signal is not "reflecting" to the same extent as a cable having a more standard geometry I would "questimate" that it is probably quite long, much longer than I would care to wind a helix coil for. :-) I have tried a 2 meter cable and could not tell any difference between it and a 1 meter cable. My final SPDIF cable was a 1/2 meter long and I observed the same great results as with the 1 and 2 meter cables. Hope that helps Regards - Steve . |
@divertiti - one last thing you might want to consider if you are planning on using bare wire...
Based on an ongoing experiment I am conducting...
- I used bare copper wire on the signal wire of my speaker cables
- I enclosed the bare wire inside a clear PVC tube
- I sealed the tube at each end with a small piece of Heat Shrink
- I placed a piece of bare wire on my audio stand for comparison
- because the PVC tube is crystal clear I can observe the brightness of the wire
My observations to date...
- the wire in the tube is still very bright after almost 2 months
- the wire on the audio stand is definitely turning a lot darker
So if you use bare wire (copper or silver) you might want to consider inserting it inside a Teflon tube and seal it at both ends with a piece of heat shrink (with adhesive) in order to slow the oxidation process.
I suggest using the Teflon tube because it is much thinner, so you can still opt to use the cotton tube/sleeve to dampen vibration if desired.
Regards - Steve
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@divertiti - RE: Steve, I’m using only Mundorf silver gold barewire, have you seen those oxidize like copper? OK - so as well as having a piece of bare copper wire, I also have a piece of the Mundorf Silver/gold wire sitting on my audio stand and after about 6 months it has almost turned Black. However - I just remembered my "old wire" box and I have solid silver wire in there that is over 4 years old, inside a Teflon tube and it is does not show any signs of tarnishing. So if it were me - I would insert the bare wire into a Teflon tube and seal it at both ends with a piece of heat shrink Hope that helps - Steve |
Those a great prices - many thanks for the link - I’ll update my web site :-)
This will make the Helix cables much more affordable ! - When I first started this - the 10 gauge wire was actually $1.30/ft - these prices are better than that.
They have some great colour choices also :-)
As for Cryo treating
- I’m not sure it adds anything when used with the Helix cables.
- It’s probably the silver plating that provides the most benefit
I know a couple of guys in eastern Europe had to make do with non-cryo silver plated wires and they still reported great results.
Has anyone out there had a more positive experience using Cryo’d wire and parts compared to non-cryo - i.e. on the Helix cables?
Cheers - Steve |
Today’s interesting experience/observations...
As per my post above - I now have the Neotech UP-OCC as the live/signal wires across my entire system - that is except for my power distribution center. The live wires in it was 4 stands of 18 Mudorf Solid silver/gold in cotton sleeve, approximately 10" long
I changed the silver wire to 12 gauge Neotech UP-OCC copper on Monday.
The sound was basically OK, but if I moved slightly off center the image went horribly wrong and sounded like it was bouncing off side walls.
Since I had observed this anomaly during the burn-in process with another pair of interconnects, I let the burn-in continue.
So this evening I listened to my system and the anomaly had corrected itself nicely, as expected, but the system now has a significantly larger image and the bass goes even deeper. The balance front to back is very nice and very detailed and artist placement is very precise. These improvements were easily heard because it now appears that the listner is even more immersed in the image, so it was not something that I really had to listen intently for.
My surprise was due to the fact the amount of wire replaced in this exercise was a mere 10", i.e. out of a power "corridor" that is some 20 ft long in total. And it was a very good quality wire, not just a piece of extension cord from Home Depot
The other thing that changed was the connection to the Outlets on the back of the power distribution center. It was previously just bare wire into the clamp on the outlet. But this time I soldered small spade connectors to the UP_OCC copper
This just goes to show - even the smallest changes can yield some very gratifying results.
So, was it the wire, or the spades?
I’ve promoted the use of spades on my power corridor for a long time.
For me, this confirms that using them can be very beneficial
The spades are nothing special, just spade connectors from my local Car Parts or hardware store - $20 for 65 pieces
The quest continues - even though I told my wife - "That’s it" :-)
Regards - Steve |
I have just been made aware of this vendor for the Mil-spec wire (NOT Cryo’d) for the power cables - their prices seem pretty good 12 AWG, Mil-Spec Wire - Eastern Voltage Research Unfortunately they do not sell the 16 gauge wire for the Interconnect neutral wire, but they do have 14 gauge I have tried a 14 gauge wire (from TFA) on the interconnect, but just a single conductor - I had to use a 3mm rod to wind the coil in order to fit the coil into the housing of the RCA plug - it was a very snug fit, so I do not recommend it I have not tried this vendor, so I have no knowledge of their reputation, delivery etc... but they support all major methods of payment, including PayPal Regards - Steve |
Eastern Voltage Research - seems to have a problem will selling large quantities e.g. 150 feet.
A contact tried to order this amount and had his order cancelled citing "export concerns", which was strange because he was in the USA
Which I find strange because i asked about exporting to Canada and they said "sure, we send stuff there all the time"
So oyu might want to contact them first
Apex might be the better choice if you are in the USA
Regards |
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@duffyd - Any change will have an effect on sonic performance. Some might say "give it a whirl" since you already have the wire.-
But you have to consider how to connect the cable to the binding posts
- the KLE Innovations bananas will no accept such a large wire
- a double neutral might be too heavy for the KLE Banana and pull it out of the binding post
- so a replacement connector must be used - which will impact performance
Also, the type of connector used may actually negate any benefit from the dual neutral wire
You could end up with a cable that is not as good sounding as the single 10 gauge.
If you think that you want to try it - take a look at Furez connectors - they offer many different sizes and come in plain copper or silver plated.
Hope that helps - Steve |
A few posts ago I had mentioned I had tried Bare Wire inside a clear PVC tube on my speaker and power cables and the improvements were very positive. I’ve also been monitoring the bare wire inside the PVC tube for signs of oxidation and as of today things are looking very promising. The bare wire is still very bright and by comparison the piece of bare wire on my audio stand is turning a much darker shade of copper. I also warned in the post that I thought PVC was not the best tube to use because it gripped the wire when trying to insert it - I thought at that time that Teflon tube would be a better material. Yesterday I received some Teflon tube I had ordered - approx 1/10" internal diameter. So today I decided to try Bare Wire in one of my interconnects that used Neotech UP-OCC copper with Teflon insulation. Removing the insulation was quite easy using a hobby knife and running it down the wire and pealing it back I used - two strands of bare 18 gauge Neotech wire, twisted together
- 3-4 twists per inch
- one piece of Teflon tube with Heat Shrink at each end
The improvements were far from subtle and heard immediately... - more high end details - vocals now had a definite whispery quality and venue acoustics were better defined
- mid tones were fuller and more complete
- bass was deeper with better texture
- dynamics were noteicebly fast with more slam
- image was little wider and better focussed
- the whole presentation was more natural and full bodied
Crap! - now I had to do the IC for the digital side :-) This time I used - 2 strands of 18 gauge VH Audio solid UP-OCC copper wire - not the Neotech wire
- 3-4 twists per inch
- and the same Teflon Tube build
Again the improvements were easily discernable and just as good as the Neotech wire. I could not tell the difference between the Neotech and VH Audio wire - which was not that strange because they are both 18 gauge UP-OCC solid copper. The twisted wires fit the tube nicely with adequate space such that the impacts of the Teflon tube is negligible - basically this approach has a Dielectric Constant very close to Air, which results in amazingly clear details and better image. The improvements in dynamics was a surprise, because the conductivity of the copper had not changed - just the insulation I’m hoping that sealing the ends of the teflon tube with the heat shrink that has the adhesive inside will halt the oxidation process as it appears to have done with the PVC tubing. Now I am all out of ideas - this was the last change I had considered. Should you rush out and change your cables? That depends on your own person level of ANAL :-) BTW - these cables have just started Burn-in, so I will post and update once they complete burn-in in a couple of weeks. But right now they sound pretty amazing - on both digital and analogue music Regards - Steve |
@grannyring ... RE: Hot Glue - the heat shrink seems to work, the adhesive inside the Heat Shrink sealed the end very nicely.
- But hot glue does not make the tube any wider like the Heat Shrink did - better for inserting into the coil.
- There is very little air inside the tube once the two twisted wires are inserted
- I did wonder if I could somehow inject carbon dioxide or Nitrogen into the tube to stop oxidation - still working on that :-)
RE: A spiral ribbon - go for it :-))) But I think we might be leaving the realm of your average DIYer. But it is fun to consider this stuff - LOL What is interesting is the wire seems to sound extremely good immediately - almost as though it is burned in - which makes me wonder - do you Burn-in the wire or the insulation??? Granted the neutral wire and the RCA’s are well and truly burned in, but I was expecting some indication that burn-in was required. When either Neotech or VH Audio wires had the insulation on them, they required about 200 hours burn-in - before that there was some imaging issues and harshness. Not this time. Something to ponder :-) Will keep everyone posted Regards - Steve |
@basillus - RE: You twist the 2 bare wires together and put them together in one teflon tube That is correct. Although I did consider using two tubes in my thought process, I decided to go with the single tube option for simplicity. Personally, I will not try the Epoxy approach, since I am forever trying new wires and methods and I think that the epoxy would make that change process more difficult. But it does have it’s merits The heat shrink I use has an adhesive applied to the inside, which turns liquid with the application of heat - it actually sealed around the wire and tube quite nicely and it is relatively easy to undo in the future. UPDATE: After just 14 hours of playing, this new approach is paying some very nice dividends - it will be very interesting to see how they sound after 200 hours burn-in. One observation I find interesting - to this point I have not observed any harshness as I did when using wire with a molded insulation. Regards - Steve |
Chris - when I first started building the cables I found that having a neutral wire that was thicker than the signal wire provided sonic improvements, so I adopted an approach to use a gauge that was twice the gauge of the signal wire across all cables. Back then I only used s single conductor for signal and neutral wires When I first built the speaker cables I used a 12 gauge SIGNAL wire - this meant I required a larger NEUTRAL wire that was approximately 2 times the gauge of the signal wire
- so my choice was a 10 gauge wire - since I could not find a 9 gauge wire :-)
The power cables are a little different because I do use 2 x 12 for the neutral, mainly because - having a single 10 gauge NEUTRAL together with a 12 gauge ground would look odd.
- Also the 1 x 12 gauge ground wire fills in the space between the windings, which keeps the two neutral wires together.
- the windings are closer together so it looks neat and tidy
A 2 x 12 gauge can be used on the speaker cables without any sonic issues - I do know people that have used 2 x 12 gauge and they reported it worked very well.
However, the 10 gauge wire holds the helix shape very well and you can space the coils more evenly... - whereas the 2 x 12 gauge would not look as "nice" because you have no way in keeping the two coils together for the length of the cable - it just looks untidy
- also, at the back of an audio rack where there could be many wires in place, having additional coils could get caught on those wires - so I kept it simple - ONE 10 Gauge coil on the speaker cable.
Hope that helps - Steve |
@nwres - that's good for US customers. Unfortunately the do not export - not even to Canada - shame :-( From their web site...
Exportation PolicySorry, no international sales. We are not an exporting company. We have no exporting license, and, because we often deal with govt./ military surplus, we do not want to give even the impression that we are selling abroad (including Canada and Mexico).
Regards - Steve |
So I do appreciate the penchant for "Natural Fibers" but here is why I chose Teflon tube... - if you took a cross section view of the wire inside the tube it appears as a small circle inside a large circle, so the point of contact is extremely small and only every a single point of contact, because if one side is touching, the other side is not
- it does not collapse when bent gently- but even if the tube collapses at an "L" shape bend - the surface area of contact is still extremely small.
- The degree of dielectric effect comes from the amount of insulation actually touching the wire, which in this case is about as low as you can "humanly" achieve.
- so the bulk of the dielectric for this approach is actually AIR
- The oxygen in the air is unable to permeate through the Teflon - good for limiting oxidation
- Sealing the tube at both ends is an effective method to minimize oxidation of the bare wire
If you are concerned about vibration you could put a cotton/silk sleeve over the Teflon tube to minimize this effect Also, thinking back to a few months ago, I had tried a twisted pair of Mundorf Silver/gold wire in cotton tube and eventually found the VH Audio wire with the insulation sounded better, which is another reason I shied away from the cotton insulation this time around. - I cannot say that the cotton was responsible, but we are all swayed by our previous success or failures.
It is a personal choice and either one will provide exceptional sound quality.. Right now I am experiencing the most open and detailed image with smooth highs, stunning clarity, extremely fast dynamics and a very articulate and deep bass response. - Also I have have not observed any anomalies normally associated with burn-in
- which is making me think that burn-in is more about the insulation than the wire?
Nirvana? - perhaps, or it could be just another wire away :-) Regards - Steve |
@dbass - here’s what I am using at present
- Interconencts:
- 2 x 18 gauge solid UP-OCC copper for signal and
- 1 x 16 gauge solid UP-OCC copper neutral conductor
- Some prefer 2 x 16 gauge for the neutral
- Speaker cables
- 2 x 14 gauge Solid UP-OCC for the signal conductor
- optionally 2 x 16 gauge for the signal conductor, but on my system they both sounded the same
- However, this may NOT be the case for all AMP/Speaker combinations - speakers that required a higher powered amp may require the 2 x 14 gauge option
- 1 x 10 guage stranded silver plated Mil-spec wires for the neutral
- but you could use 1 x 12 gauge or 2 x 12 gauge stranded Neotech UP-OCC also
- Power cables
- 2 x 14 gauge Solid UP-OCC bare copper wire for the Live conductor for the heavy duty PC
- 2 x 12 gauge stranded Neotech UP-OCC wire with Teflon insulation for the Neutral for the heavy duty PC
- 2 x 18 gauge Solid UP-OCC bare copper wire for the Live conductor for the Source PC
- and oyu can use 2 x 14 gauge stranded Neotech UP-OCC wire with Teflon insulation for the Neutral for the Source PC
- 1 x 12 gauge copper wire with Teflon insulation from Home Depot for the Ground wire
I buy my UP-OCC 6N solid bare wire from parts connexion because I only use the Air adaption for all my Helix cables, which requires bare wire inside a teflon tube - it saves me having to strip the Teflon insulation off of the Neotech and I think it provided a little better dynamic performance
https://www.partsconnexion.com/occ6n-copper-hook-up-wire.html
They also have Neotech wire and many other brands
But shop around - there are deals to be had - just make sure you are comparing apples to apples
The silver plated Mil-spec I order from Take Five Audio - again there are alternative from other vendors, so shop around
Deep Cryo Treated Cable And Wire - (takefiveaudio.com)
Others on this thread prefer the Duelund with Cotton/Oil insulation for the signal wire on Interconnects and Speaker cables, but I prefer the faster dynamics of the UP-OCC copper on my system
But realistically - all of the wires I mentioned above are excellent performers when used for Helix cables - it becomes a matter of "personal preference" and how well a particular component works with the selected wire(s).
Hope that helps - Steve
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