bryantdrew,
I agree with millercarbon that you'll have much better results adding 3 to have the magic 4 subs in any given room that almost magically provides state of the art perceived bass response in virtually any room.
Of course, it only seems like magic once you actually experience the amazing transformation in bass performance in your room when you utilize 4 subs properly positioned in your room rather than 1,2 or 3 subs. It is actually the opposite of magic since it is all based on the rigors of scientific experimentation, documented results, peer review and the experimental results have been verified independently numerous times by other scientists.
This proven concept is called a Distributed Bass Array (DBA) system and it consists of 4 subs strategically positioned in any given room that scientifically (not magically) provides state of the art perceived bass response throughout the entire room and not just at a specific sweet spot.
I don't know the size of your room, bryantdrew, so I'm not suggesting you deploy 4 large SVS 3000 subs in a DBA system unless your room is huge and you're OK with weakening the structure of your home. You could attain all the benefits of a custom DBA system in your room by just adding 2 smaller subs of your choice to the 2 larger subs you already have.
This concept works so well due to there being at least 4 distributed points (subs) in the room launching bass sound waves into the room. These 4 subs are actually creating more bass modes in the room (spots where the bass is perceived as exaggerated, attenuated or even absent) but, due to the way our brain processes multiple deep bass sound waves, we perceive the bass in total as smooth and articulate.
When I setup and listened to my Audio Kinesis Debra 4 sub DBA system in my 23x16 ft. room and initially heard the excellent bass produced, my first thoughts were that it actually did seem like magic how the bass performance in my room/system had been transformed so dramatically. I know it's all scientifically based but experiencing what I consider sota bass in my room, on my system and on my music still seems magical to me.
Tim
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bryantdrew,
I'd suggest you state a few more details for best responses:
What's the size of your room?
Are there any irregularities or restrictions in your room?
Carpet or hard floor?
Is your system used just for music, ht or for both?
What does your current system, besides the 2 SVS subs, consist of?
What's your budget?
Thanks,
Tim
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bryantdrew,
You haven't stated whether you have two of the larger,ported SVS PB3000 or the smaller, sealed SVSSB3000 subs. It'd also be useful to know whether you're going to use these just for music, just for ht or a combination.
I'm very confident that either the Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra distributed bass array system will outperform any pair of subs of almost any size and price for music and ht. Both are priced at $2,800 for the complete system which includes 4 subs(each sub is 4 ohms, 1'x1'x23",44 lbs, has a 10" long-throw aluminum driver and have removable port plugs so they can be run as ported or sealed.) and a 1,000 watt class AB amp/controller that powers all 4 subs and controls the volume, phase, crossover frequency and has limited e.q.
All 4 of my AK Debra subs are configured as ported and operate in mono mode with a flat frequency response from 20-100 Hz. I have a combination 2-ch music and 5.1 surround sound ht system using Magnepan planar magnetic speakers across the front (a pair of 6'x2' 2.7QR panels that have a deep bass limit of about 35 Hz as mains and a CC3 center channel that has a deep bass limit of about 50 Hz. I run all these speakers full-range with the cutoff freq.usually at 40 Hz for music and 50 Hz for ht.
The Debra or Swarm system provides natural, pitch-perfect, taut, articulate and dynamic bass that seems to effortlessly go as deep as the content requires and integrates seamlessly with the mid-bass to treble response from my main speakers on music. But the system also provides these same bass qualities along with the ability to provide deep, powerful, dynamic and accurate bass at high volumes that will shake the room when the content requires it on ht.
I think one of these DBA systems would perform equally well in virtually any room and with any speakers. I really don't believe it's possible for me to overstate how well this concept works and just an audition would convince almost anyone. I'm certain that an AK Swarm, Debra or even a custom DBA using a sub amp and 4 subs of your choice will significantly outperform any system using less than 4 traditional amplified subs of any size or price; definitely in bass quality and probably in bass quantity and impact. It truly does provide sota bass response that I've never been able to equal with 1 or 2 subs of various brands in my room and system.
It's also relatively inexpensive at $2,800 for everything but the rca interconnects and speaker cables, about the same price as 2 SVS PB3000 subs or a pair of many other high quality subs.
I'm not a retailer and have no association with Audio Kinesis. I'm just a very pleased customer trying to spread the word about how exceptionally well these DBA based systems actually perform.
Tim |
gdnrbob,
I have my 4 subs connected to a single amp just as Duke described. It's all fairly basic but I would suggest having a plan for running the wiring.
In my case, my living room is directly above a crawl space and I drilled 1/2" holes through my living room carpet and sub floor for access. I have a hole in back of my rack that holds the Dayton sub amp and a hole underneath each of the 4 subs. Remember, the spkr terminals are on the bottom of each sub and there's the option of using spiked or flat footers. I ran thickly coated 16 gauge wire suitable for outdoor use which wouldn't be needed indoors.
There are a lot of methods you or a ht installer could use to run the 4 sets of wiring inconspicuously. I'd definitely recommend hiding the wiring, however, since the finished look is so clean and even stylish. All that's visible just looks like a wooden pedestal.
In my 23x16 ft room, each of the 2 subs positioned along my front 16 ft. wall are actually hidden from view by each of my 6x2 ft. panel speakers. The 2 other subs, one along each of the 23 ft. side walls are visible but look good to my wife and I.
Oh yeah, and the whole system sounds awesome.
Tim
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millercarbon,
Yes, you'll be amazed just how well it works. Have you given any thought about positioning your 4 subs in your room? If not, I can detail the process I used that worked out very well.
Let me know,
Tim |
millercarbon,
From what I’ve read about DBA systems, I believe your asymmetrical sub positioning/distribution plan will create more complex patterns of modal behavior in your room, resulting in decorrelation due to the smaller and more numerous bass peaks and dips present, which will be perceived as smooth, natural and seemingly effortless in-room bass response that is capable of reproducing fast, solid and taut bass just as accurately as deeper, more sudden and more powerful bass.
While I think you should get good results from your planned asymmetrical approach, I think it’s important you know that I’ve never actually tried this configuration with my subs in my room.
Just in case you’d like an alternative positioning plan that I know works, here’s how I positioned mine:
I removed my main speakers from the room, hooked up sub#1 and placed it at my normal listening seat position on its back, with the driver faced upwards.
I played some music with good and repetitive bass at a moderate volume and, beginning at the front right corner of my 23’x16’ room, I walked slowly across my front 16’ wall listening for the exact spot where the bass sounded best to me (the most natural and pitch accurate without being exaggerated or attenuated). I took my time and walked from right to left numerous times to verify the best spot. Once verified, I placed sub#1 at this exact spot with the driver facing, and less than 2 inches away from, the front 16’ wall.
I hooked up sub#2 in-series to sub#1 and placed sub#2 at my normal listening seat position on its back, with the driver again faced upwards. At this point, sub#1 and #2 are both active.
I played some music with good and repetitive bass again at a moderate volume and, beginning at sub#1 (now located about 2’ away from the front-right corner of my room along the 16’ front wall), I walked slowly across the remaining space along the front 16’ wall to the left front corner then turned left and continued walking from front to back along the left 23’ side wall of my room, listening again for the exact spot where the bass sounded best to me. Once verified, I placed sub#2 at this exact spot with the driver facing, and less than 2 inches away from, the front 16’ wall.
This completed the placement of both subs connected in-series to the first of the Dayton amp’s two sets of speaker outputs.
I continued this sequential sub positioning procedure for sub#3 and sub#4, with first sub#3 placed face up at my normal listening position and finally sub#4 just positioned at the exact spot I determined the bass sounded best with the first 3 subs playing the same musical content that had good and repetitive bass. This resulted in sub#3 sounding best along my left 23’ wall about 2’ away from the rear-left corner and sub#4 sounding best along my right 23’ wall also about 2’ away from the rear-right corner. So, subs #3 and #4 are located directly across from each other along opposite and parallel 23’ walls.
The results of this procedure in my room were so good that I never bothered to do the final procedure step of checking if the system sounded better with the phase reversed on one of the 4 subs as Duke and James Romeyn suggest.
I’ve been enjoying the excellent bass of the Debra bass system for almost 4 years now and I still haven’t felt the need to complete this step. The reasons are that I really have a difficult time imagining how the bass this system reproduces could be improved upon for music or ht and I really don’t want to jinx anything. If it’s not broken, don’t try to fix it, right?
Hopefully, Duke or James will chime in on their recommended DBA system setup methods and tips, too.
I’m looking forward to hearing your thoughts on your new custom DBA system.
Tim
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Hello bdp24,
I'm not surprised at all that Duke displayed his knowledge and integrity when asked about open baffle dipole subs. He's displayed to me the exact same vast knowledge of in-room bass sound wave behavior and the explanations of why/how 4-sub distributed bass arrays are such an effective solution with the exact same integrity.
As far as my understanding of psychoacoustical bass principles and DBAs are concerned, I think of Duke as Mr. Miogi and he's showing me how to wax his car.
Tim
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Hello millercarbon,
Congratulations on getting your custom 4-sub distributed bass array system built and operational! Are you planning on posting some kind of more extensive review of your dba results? How about a new thread devoted to how to build and deploy a custom dba?
Using an Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub dba myself for the past 4 yrs, I already knew your results would be spectacular but I think others really benefit by knowing how incredibly well this concept actually performs in virtually any room and with any pair of main speakers.
If you're anything like me, you're going to find it hard to resist posting about the dba concept as the ideal bass system on the many threads consistently started by members looking for better bass response in their rooms and systems.
However, I completely understand if you'd rather just enjoy your newly improved system for a few weeks, months, years or decades. The truth is that neither of us will ever need to buy another sub or bass system again.
I'm just still amazed the dba concept isn't more widely known and used, especially on a high-end audio site like Audiogon. The fact that it's so difficult to overstate how well these dba systems actually perform, whether a complete $2,800 complete dba bass kit like my AK Debra or a custom dba system such as yours, I hope you agree we have an obligation to spread the word to our A'gon brethren and beyond.
Enjoy,
Tim
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bstatmeister:
"
I really only have 1 place it could fit while still having acceptable WAF - in the corner of the room just to the right of the right main. Hopefully, that position will suffice."
Hello bstatmeister,
Placing a sub in a corner position usually results in a perceived bass boost in the room due to the close proximity of the 2 walls there that bass sound waves can reflect off.
The sub crawl is definitely the best method of attaining good bass response at your listening seat when utilizing only a single sub and room positioning options aren't so restricted.
I'd suggest positioning the sub as many inches as possible away from directly in the corner, given your limited space, will be less of a bass performance compromise. You should be able to clearly notice that the bass will sound more natural and accurate in 1 of the 2 positions.
lordrootman:
"
Your best bet to archive deep clean bass is missing subs together from 2-4 brand
im using SVS PC13 ultra with two klipsch SW-115
way better than using only one brand
also use both red and white outputs with Y adaptor don’t use only LFE."
Hello lordrootman,
While there are no reasons mixing different sub brands or even sub types would be detrimental, there are also no reasons I'm aware of that mixing sub brands or even types would be beneficial. Perhaps lordrootman could elaborate and enlighten us.
mijostyn:
"
For all you people planning subs on a limited budget just buy the first one and add another when you can. For point source speakers 2 subs will get you 90% there. For you panel jockeys, Magnapans and electrostats you are going to have to shoot for 4."
Hello mijostyn,
I think your idea, for people planning subs on a limited budget to just buy the first one and add another when they can, is a very good one.
I believe a good approach would be buying the Dayton SA1000 1K watt class AB sub amp for about $300 and buying or building a single passive sub with a 10" or 12" aluminum long-throw driver, in a stiff cabinet that is either sealed or ported with plugs for optional sealing and about a 1sqft footprint. This bass system could then be improved upon by adding up to 3 more subs as their budget allowed over time.
However, I disagree with your statement that using 2 subs with point source speakers will get you 90% of the bass response performance of using 4 subs in a dba system. If we agree with Duke's statement that 2 subs in a room provides twice the bass smoothness of 1 sub and 4 subs in a room provides twice the bass smoothness of 2 subs, this would mathematically result in an accurate statement being that "using 2 subs with point source speakers will get you 50% of the bass response performance of using 4 subs in a dba system, not 90%.
I also agree with your statement of "
For you panel jockeys, Magnapans and electrostats you are going to have to shoot for 4." Planar magnetic speakers like Magnepans and electrostatic speakers like Martin Logans and Sound Labs are considered fast speakers that are notoriously difficult to seamlessly match subs with. Single or dual subs, especially those with 12 or 15 inch drivers, are just not capable of matching the speed of these fast speakers and, as a result, the bass seems to lag behind, be poorly integrated and sound disconnected to the fast and nimble qualities these speakers consistently display. My experiences using Magnepan panels with the AK Debra dba system with 4 faster and more nimble 10" driver subs, is that there's a very seamless and quality to the reproduced sound that just seems like a very well integrated whole.
mijostyn:
"IMH experience the best performance comes from sealed, enclosed 12" subs Q @ 7 with Room control and a high powered class AB amp damping > 500, the higher the better. The only difficult variable is the enclosure itself which ideally should be infinitely stiff and heavy."
I agree with you in general but I know excellent performance can also come from 4 ported 10" subs powered by a high powered class AB or class D amp with a damping factor >500. The Debra/Swarm sub enclosures are very stiff and reasonably heavy.
From my perspective, the primary reason for the sota in-room bass response performance achieved through the use of dbas is still the fact that there are 4 fast and nimble subs producing bass sound waves from strategically varied positions in the room.
There are other important factors but having 4 well distributed sources of bass in any room is the crucial ingredient in creating this delicious psycho-acoustical cake.
Tim |
audiokinesis: "If we agree with Duke's statement that 2 subs in a room provides twice the bass smoothness of 1 sub and 4 subs in a room provides twice the bass smoothness of 2 subs..." I was paraphrasing my mentor, Earl Geddes. Not only does the frequency response get smoother at a given location, but the frequency response variations from one location to another within the room also decrease (which follows from the first statement, but it may not be obvious). Duke"
Hello Duke, So to paraphrase my mentor, you, not only does an AK Swarm/Debra or custom 4-sub distributed bass array system's bass sound approximately twice as smooth at a given location than using 2-subs at a given location, but the bass will sound smoother from one location to another within the room, too. It was not initially obvious to me that smoother bass from one location to another within a given room follows from smoother bass at a given location within that room until you emphasized this. Based on my experiences using the AK Debra dba system within my own room, however, it was initially very obvious to me exactly how this bass smoothness manifested itself as sota bass performance not only at a given location within the room (my dedicated listening seat) but virtually my entire 23' x16' room. I have 6 seating positions in my room: a leather recliner centered on the rear 16' wall which is my dedicated listening sweet spot seat, a leather couch with 3 individually reclining seating positions along the right 23' wall and 2 large chairs straddling a 6' x 8' window along the left 23' wall. Of course, only my listening sweet spot seat is positioned for optimum stereo imaging and the other 5 seating positions have compromised stereo imaging of varying degrees. But, based on my own evaluations and the enthusiastic and very positive non-professional reviews from multiple family members and friends, the bass performance at all 6 seating positions in my room is perceived as state of the art for music and ht. I've even informally evaluated the bass response at all of the non-seating areas of my room between my main front speakers/hdtv and the back wall, and was unable to find a single spot at which the bass was not equally and consistently excellent. Perhaps you're thinking I'm too easily pleased or exaggerating, but I honestly can't think of of a single audible bass performance aspect that requires improvement. In the spirit of honesty, however, I believe I must make it clear there is a rather obvious and serious downside to using a dba system that has nothing to do with the virtually guaranteed excellent sound of the bass of these systems; it does require the use of 4 physical boxes in the room. There's no dismissing or ignoring this fact that, in my experience on audio forums describing the sonic virtues of dbas, can often be a deal killer for many potential adopters. I believe the subject of how to best accommodate 4 moderately sized wooden boxes (my AK Debra subs are 12x12x28 inches in size) in a domestic room environment is probably best addressed on a separate thread. So I'll refrain from discussing this and just refer those to my system pics for those curious. Tim |
Hello hifidreams,
You're obviously well acquainted with the benefits of 4-sub dbas through personal experience. What exactly does your sub system consist of? 4 SVS SB-16 Ultras, a mini DSP with REW and a Multi Sub Optimizer?
Your post makes me think of a couple other points worth mentioning:
1. No one using a 4-sub dba, or anyone who has just personally experienced the excellent bass performance of a 4-sub dba for even a short demo, needs any further convincing of how amazingly well this concept works in practical terms, at this point you're just preaching to the choir. The icing on the cake is that it works equally well in virtually any room and the sota bass response integrates equally seamlessly with virtually any pair of main speakers.
2. Once you completely understand how well the dba concept works and you'd like to spread the word to others of this fact, I've discovered that writing or speaking about the virtues of dbas is likely the least effective means of convincing others since it sounds too good to be true and people remain skeptical. I think the most effective method is definitely just sitting down in a room with a decent dba system for a good audition. A good dba demo is worth at least 1,000 words
I understand the skepticism about 4-sub dbas very well because I initially also thought it sounded too good to be true and I remained skeptical for many months before a free 30-day in-home trial period offer convinced me to give the AK Debra dba a try.
I had dba skepticism because I had no experience with, or even knowledge of, the concept. Now that I do, I've been transformed into a complete dba fan and promoter.
Tim, |
phusis:
"
Why try and make a case with a limited number of CD’s (what genre, age of mix, etc.?) to conclude that there’s virtually no recorded true-stereo bass?"
Hello phusis,
I don't believe it was millercarbon who tried to make a case that there's virtually no recorded true-stereo bass content. I think it was Audiokinesis/Duke who mentioned the rarity of recordings with stereo bass earlier on this thread.
I know that his AK Swarm and Debra distributed bass array systems, with the addition of a 2nd Dayton sub amp, is capable of being positioned in a manner that would successfully reproduce stereo bass.
If I recall correctly, however, Duke stated he wasn't aware of any content containing true-stereo bass and asked if anyone else knew of any content recorded with true-stereo bass. I'm not aware of any and apparently no one else reading this thread is, either.
You seemed a bit offended when you mistakenly thought millercarbon had tried to make a case that there was just a 'limited' number of cds containing true-stereo bass when there appears to be none.
Are you aware of any recorded content with true-stereo bass?
Just to be clear, I know it's very possible to attain very good bass response at a single sweet spot location using 2 good subs. My point is that it will be very good mono bass, not true-stereo bass.
Tim
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Hello hifidream,
Congratulations on creating your own custom distributed bass array system for your Magnepan20.1 speakers. I know the 20.1s have very good bass performance in stock form with 2 large planar-magnetic bass panels in each speaker that all output down to 25 Hz. Not full extension to 20 Hz like many good subs but close and very respectable.
Counting each pair of bass panels as a sub, I would suggest you're actually using a total of 6 subs in your room/system. While 2 aren't outputting bass that's fully extended, they're both outputting the exceptionally fast, articulate and smooth bass provided by planar-magnetic panels down to a deep bass level of 25 Hz.
Since we've both experienced the amazing seamless integration with even fast planar-magnetic panel speakers (whether mid-level models like mine or top of the line models like yours) and the high quality bass produced using 4-sub dba systems, I think it's safe to assume you'd agree that the dba concept works exceptionally well.
Tim
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