DPS/Schroeder Ref. Turntable

Hi All,

I look at this tonearm thing just a bit differently. I'll stay out of the turntable discussion for obvious reasons ...

I truly believe that if you lined up an optimally set up Triplanar and Schröder Reference (not necessarily identical cartridges - I said optimal), you'd get one person preferring one tonearm over the other. It's definitely a Porsche vs. Bimmer sort of thing and the results / preferences could easily be reversed.

If you've read my rants on this forum and on my website, you'll know my stance - that between the Triplanar and the Schröder, the one you relate to best on a mechanical level is the one you'll set up the best, and the one you set up the best will be ... the best. No surprise here, and people fall on both sides of the fence on this issue.

I have a few owners who own both arms, as well as a few who have a Triplanar and are waiting on their Schröder. My advice to customers trying to decide on one verses the other is to get a Triplanar now, and in 14 months when their Schröder is ready. In this way, they can decide for themselves. Invariably (unless finances are an issue), they end up keeping both and loving both tonearms for their unique virtues. Of course, the upside of this is that they get to enjoy their Triplanars now, while visions of sugar plums (err ... Schröders) dance in their heads.

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About two months ago, I had an eye opening experience. Lynn Olson's Karna Amplifiers were guests at my house while he was evaluating some recent changes made to them. For those who are wondering, development and any final commercial product is still quite a way off, because Lynn has become involved in his first calling - speaker design. Lynn is working on a high-efficiency coaxial, hemp-cone driver that builds on the expired Tannoy patent.

One evening Lynn brought over an AC sine-wave generator from Monarchy Audio.

We used this supply to run the AC heated filaments of his Karnas (2-45's and 2-300b's per amp). The Karnas have an accessory IEC connector that Lynn installed in the amplifier for just this purpose. Of particular interest is that the Monarchy provides the ability to vary the "wall voltage" from 100 to 120VAC. Of course, we couldn't resist twiddling the dial (well ... truth be told, it's a button).

I had two identical Gavias set up. One 'table had my Schroeder and the other had a Triplanar. Both arms were hosts to Dynavector XV-1s cartridges. The first thing we noticed was that somewhere around 106 to 110VAC everything sounded better in every way.

The second thing we noticed was that we had a sort of "tonearm button" - that 108VAC with the Schröder and 106VAC with the Triplanar brought the two tonearms to sound remarkably alike.

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Warning! Technical analysis follows ...

Now, keeping in mind that the filament transformers on the amplifiers are wired to convert 120VAC into 2.5VAC for the 45's and 5.0VAC for the 300b's, we created a situation where the tubes' filaments were seeing about 88% of their specified voltage - about 2.2VAC and 4.4VAC respectively.

Even more provocative is that we were hearing musically significant differences in a roughly 2% change in wall voltage (108 106). Read this sentence again.

For the technically inclined, Steve Bench writes quite a bit about this operating condition which is referred to as starved filaments. You can link to Steve's site by clicking here. By means of introduction, Steve has built a world-class phono stage which is in the class of the Artemis, Nick Doshi's Alap, Raul's Essential (we'll verify the Essential for ourselves in February when Raul spends Valentine's day with us). Steve's is not a commercial product, and I'm not hyping anything but rather trying to convey my respect for his innovative designs and his technical insight.

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So, when someone tells me that component A sounds this way or that way, I smile quietly to myself and remind myself that I have no idea how component A will sound when optimally set up or when set up in my system. We're all in this together of course, and dialogs like this help us to triangulate in on absolute truth such as it were.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Hi Red, Doc ...

I agree with both of you. Let me explain / clarify.

Regarding my comments about filament voltages, I can see where some might infer that I was claiming to have discovered a magic "tonearm dial" with this filament voltage adjustment - that this "dial" could make a Schröder and Triplanar sound identical to each other.

Differences between the two still exist and their essential characters were still evident.

I was however amazed at how startling was the convergence between the two arms, and this was my main point. I was fine tuning a single system while the differences between our collective audio systems are far greater than what I did that night.

From this perspective, you might well find someone to prefer a Triplanar in one system and a Schröder in another.

Perhaps this is why we have more trouble with our chosen hobby than the folks I reference in this thread have in picking out technology that can save their lives.

Given how close the two arms are, one can make a powerful dollars and cents argument in favor of the Triplanar. Those who know me realize that I would not criticize this decision. Of course, we all define quality differently. I won't belabor this point, because we can all fill in the blanks - consistent with our priorities and aesthetics.

Finally, there's the human interface factor, and Doc uses a good metaphor in his firearm example. One or both tonearms will make "sense" to you. The one that makes "sense" is the best arm for you.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Hi Ebalog

Also... I had it from a good source that Schoeder tonearms really aren't available any longer. Can you shed any light on this? When did the last one you ordered come in? I know someone on the waiting list for more than 16 months with no known "start" date.

My most recent delivery was an arm Frank hand delivered to Docsavage at this year's RMAF in October.

Frank certainly continues to make tonearms, but your friend on the list is not a statistical anomaly (16 month wait). For example, the next two arms I'm awaiting delivery on were ordered in November of 2005.

From what I've seen in the past year, Frank has regained equilibrium - neither falling further behind, nor catching up. While the difficulties that resulted in him falling behind last year appear to be history, we have yet to dig into the backlog to return to the good old days of 4-6 month waiting periods.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Hi Gary, Red ...

I think you're both right ...

My take on Red's comments is that they have more to do with manufacturers letting their customers become their beta testers ... releasing update after update instead of doing their homework and releasing a mature design. I grow very tired of this sort of philosophy as I would guess you (Gary) do to.

As I understand your (Gary) comments on the DPS, it would appear that the upgraded power supply represents a significant financial commitment by the customer, and is therefore offered as an option - similar to my offering a range of platters for the Gavia.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Hi Ebalog,

I'm glad to hear they're not out of production, although it does sound like in addition to a substantial waiting period, there aren't many arms coming out, period.

Paraphrasing Mark Twain, rumors of Frank's death are greatly exaggerated.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Frank is back on track, producing and delivering tonearms on a regular basis and at his previous rate.

Any backlog relates to him falling behind last year (in 2006). Stated another way, production dropped off in 2006 but has returned to normal.

The way I see it, Frank has a few options:

1. To put a moratorium on orders until he brings his backlog back to a 4 month waiting period

2. To continue taking his normal order volume and somehow work to eat into the backlog

3. To continue with his normal production and accept the increased waiting period.

When I last checked, Richard Sachs was running a 39 month waiting period for his bicycles. You will not convince Richard, Frank, (or myself, for that matter) to hire a second shift to do work that we put our names on.

I've heard stories (reliable) of some folks being told that at this point they should not wait any longer, which was a sad realization for them.

I am puzzled by this comment, as I am equally puzzled by general statements made in mainstream media "we understand from reliable sources ... ". The only realization to be made is that some good things are worth waiting for.

Surely the decision to order a Schröder and wait is a personal one. As a dealer for Schröder, Triplanar and Dynavector tonearms, it's certainly in my best interest to sell the latter two, cash the check, and be done with it ... leaving aside any auditioning issues and which arm you'd prefer.

As an aside, I make it very easy for purchasers of Galibier turntables to work their way into a Schröder tonearm.

I look at it this way: In a world of instant gratification, not everyone has the makeup to wait for a hand-built product like a Schröder.

Don't get me wrong, it's great to reach a decision, write your check and get to come home with the goods. I would not argue against this in a perfect world. At the same time, reality dictates otherwise, and everyone has to make their own choices.

I guess I'm unclear as to why someone would not get on the waiting list - even when you discount the notion that owning a Schröder tonearm is like collecting fine art. A Schröder tonearm will not depreciate and will not wear out.

I'd have gone on the list myself, but I did not have the luxury of time (i.e., I "needed" (who really "needs" a tonearm) a better performing tonearm than what I had "desperately" -- I couldn't wait 16 months or longer/forever).

In this age of Audiogon sales, I find it difficult to believe that you cannot own an interim tonearm at little to zero net expense to you - an arm that you can subsequently sell when your Schröder arrives. See my comments above about how I make it easy to transition into Schröder.

Now, if you don't own a flexible turntable architecture like a Galibier, then perhaps changing tonearms presents a problem for you. I'd take this up with the dealer who sold you your turntable. What? You can't get service from him? I can't speak on behalf of other manufacturers, but the ease (or expense) of swapping armboards has never been an issue for Galibier owners.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Hi Ebalog,

This is a great topic, and you raise some very important questions that span well beyond those of Schröder, Galibier and other small manufacturers - falling into two broad areas: extended waiting periods, and working with small manufacturers in general.

I've thought a lot about the latter issue from both sides of the fence - both from the perspective of a manufacturer as well as from that of a customer - probably dating to my purchase of a Merrill Turntable in 1991, and most recently with the Aurora Guitar Amplifier I ordered last month from Mission Amps.

Maybe I'm a sucker for a small guy who trades punches with the big boys. I don't know. Bruce Collins (Mission Amps) has a very helpful presence on a guitar amplifier forum I frequent and I sensed a genuine passion as well has high level of competence in the man.

I touch on some of these issues in my About Page, but perhaps it's best to discuss them here, in the context of your comments.

Your point about ongoing manufacturer support is an important one - whether in the context of a large corporation or a one-man shop. I think it's extremely important that everyone pick their comfort zone in this regard.

Let's look two extremes in manufacturer size - Micro Seiki and Merrilll.

Micro Seiki ...

Micro Seiki closed their doors in 1991, and people began scrambling for replacement parts. Thanks to the Internet, there is a Micro Seiki group on Yahoo Groups.

Now, most parts on Micros are fairly difficult to come by and no Internet group is going to help you replace some critical parts. On the other hand, several machinists frequent that group, and there has been talk for example about co-manufacturing armboards. Large companies go out of business. Others cease to support older models. It is not risk-free.

Merrill ...

When I purchased my Merrill turntable in 1991, it was with the understanding that the day would come when George would roll down is blinds for the last time. I purchased a spare motor controller, knowing that this was a part that was the most likely to fail over my lifetime of ownership.

It so happens that Anthony Scillia has partnered up with George to form Merrill-Scillia and Merill is as alive as ever.

Who would have figured in 1989 that Merrill would "outlive" Micro Seiki?

Now, I can't speak for other manufacturers (large or small), but it was my ownership of the Merrill which guided my design philosophy at Galibier. I don't want to hijack this thread into a sales pitch, but suffice it to say, that I worked hard to "future proof" my designs so that the end-user could keep his turntable running with local resources.

All of this is to say that large manufacturer or small, you are running a risk as far as the ability of the manufacturer to respond to your needs for one reason or another - whether it be due to business continuity (longevity), support of discontinued models, etc.

In the end, I think it is critical for the customer to feel comfortable with their purchase and I'd be the last to argue that any single business model is superior to all others.

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I don't know what to make of your friend and his waiting period for his Schröder. Surely, communications with his dealer would be helpful for him, although frankly there's not much to be said from such communications - other than to say "yes, your arm is on order, sir".

I do know that in working with Frank, I don't even consider getting a status for more than the next two arms on my list. I accept that any such estimate is meaningless. My reasoning is based on the assumption that I'm perhaps one of a dozen dealers world-wide. To ask Frank to predict more than two arms out is to expect him to predict beyond 24 tonearms which is plainly not possible.

I would estimate that 70% of the Schröders I sell are to people who have not purchased a Galibier turntable from me.

When I speak of the service I give to my turntable customers while they are waiting for their Schröder, I hope this wasn't construed as preferential treatment in terms of order fulfillment.

I was trying to convey an expression of gratitude for peoples' business by loaning armboards, sourcing arms where possible - that sort of thing. I maintain a list of orders and forward it to Frank on a monthly basis - as a "tickler file" if you will. I do not change the priorities based on what a person purchased from me.

It sounds as if you have found a marvelous tonearm and you are thrilled with it. This is great news. I have a Micro MX-282 which is on loan to a friend. I demand that this arm stay in my extended audio family, so I understand your comments about the arm you acquired being a "keeper".

I sense that on some level however, that you are curious about Schröders. Perhaps this is intellectual curiosity about the unobtanium, and nothing more. I understand. If you're ever in the Colorado area, feel free to arrange a "no obligation" comparison of a Schröder and Triplanar. Please note however, I just sent may personal arm to Frank to swap out the arm wand and the wire. Maybe I can pull some strings to get it back by the end of the year. Sorry, I couldn't resist injecting some humor here.

Your question about a Richard Sachs bike is a good one. Usually, when we're at the level of considering either a Schröder Tonearm or a Richard Sachs bike, we already own a fairly fine tonearm or bicycle.

Assuming this weren't the case, I'd obviously have to purchase a bicycle in order to get through the waiting period. My path would likely take me to another small builder like Tom Nobilette or Eisentraut. Alternatively, I might purchase a production Moots, which I'd equivocate with purchasing of a Triplanar Tonearm in our example - not exactly chopped liver.

Like yourself, I could find myself keeping the Moots and pedaling happily ever after ... or a Triplanar over a Schröder. We are talking about very fine pieces in these two examples, and given tastes and such, one never knows which one will prefer.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier