First of all, thanks all of you for your input. I do agree
that it is more about dynamics rather that just loudness. Any continued SPL
above 85 dba will result in hearing damage, so needless to say this is not
recommended. My hearing –after 40 years running around on electricity power
plants- is not very good anymore, Nevertheless, I’m certainly able to enjoy the
music, and I love the dynamics. Unfortunately, not many systems are able to
present the full dynamic range available. Most of the systems will run into distortion
when playing 90-95 dba SPL at listening position. Don’t be fooled, 95 dba is loud! Now,
considering a background noise level of let’s say 40 dba, and a dynamic range
of 50 db on a very good CD, your system must be able to produce undistorted SPL
of 90 dba. That’s it. You may wish to
have a bit headroom, but if your system plays SPL peaks up to 95 dba
undistorted, you’re good. Believe me,
not too many systems can. Other than
that, I play music at a level which I believe would be natural. So if a singer
would be standing in between the speakers, how loud could she/he possibly sing
without amplification, that’s the norm for me. Of course, occasionally I do
play louder, depending on the music. But hardly ever do I exceed the 90-95 dba
peak SPL. (and yes, I measure with an Extech SPL meter, it does make a difference)
|
@shadorne
I do agree with you that -in general- very few speakers will comfortably go much higher than 95 dba, without running into higher distortion. The moment you can see the woofer "working hard" there is a very realistic chance that you are entering higher distortion levels as well. At 95 dba, almost all speakers will show this "working hard", they will have to move a certain volume of air to reach the higher sound pressure levels, so as woofers themselves have a certain mass, they will start to "overshoot (both positive and negative overshoots). This will create distortion. (easy to envision). Manufacturers will try solving this by selecting different materials, stronger magnets, tighter tolerances, adding more woofer units, or a combination go the above. In general this results in higher costs. As I like dynamics, and in general stay below 90 dba, my system is still quite within its "comfort zone". At least you don't see its 16 woofers working yet ;) |
I'm actually surprised how many people admit listening at levels up to 100 or more dba at the listening position. I'm not sure how they measure, but believe me, most speakers won't even go that loud, or if they do, they will distort tremendously, unless the room is very big, or very well acoustically treated, room interaction will spoil the listening experience. Or do we all own huge horn systems, known for their ability to play very loud...or is it more like those car owners, bragging about how fast their cars go? But, on the other hand, for all those who regularly listen way above 100 dba levels, please enjoy the music as you like it...in the end that's what counts I believe. For me that's between 70-90 dba at the listening position, measured with an Extech SPL meter, for others it's between 90-110 dba...(and soon someone will indicate levels of 100-130 dba ;) |
I'm afraid that my old and industrial ears (61 years old, 40 years or so working on power plants) are still too sensitive to "enjoy" music at levels way above 100 dba. I'm not sure my speakers could do that undistorted, but I also don't really want to try. May be they could, (I doubt it) but if so, it means that for sure they comfortably reach SPL up to 95 dba at listening position, which they do indeed. As stated before, most speakers won't do 107 dba undistorted at the listening position ;)
(or may be my speakers are just not up to it, I gladly accept defeat ;) |
Another point is that I was talking about SPL at the listening position. (in my case 4.0 meter)
I now realize that some measure 107 dba at 2 feet. If we measure for example 105 dba at 0.5 meter, we may expect to see about 102 dba at 1.0 meter, or about 99dba at 2 meter, or about 96 dba at 4.0 meter. As I mentioned that I consider 95 dba to be an enjoyable maximum SPL, we are not too far apart after all..... ;) |
I believe that measuring a SPL of let's say 90 dba in a small room is as loud as 90 dba in a big room. (the effort to get to the 90 dba is different of course).
|
@onhwy61
I agree, but make that "flat down to 35 Hz"
@nonoise
100% true.
Happy listening |
@gdhal
In a subsequent post you made in this thread, dated 03-04-2018 8:57am, you wrote "....people admit listening at levels up to 100 or more dba at the listening position. I’m not sure how they measure, but believe me, most speakers won’t even go that loud, or if they do, they will distort tremendously...."
I took that to mean that you are now stating that most speakers cannot achieve 100 db without tremendous distortion, irrespective of the listening position. And this is simply not true, despite the Soundstage measurements submitted by shadorne as evidence.
You added the word "irrespective". I'm sure you do understand that this is the key here. 100 dba at 2 feet, or 100 dba at -for example- 20 feet DOES differ, and so does the distortion.
Anyway, your speakers seem to be able to go extremely loud (as you claim up to "approximately 125 dba, (however you also agree to take that with a grain of salt), for which you would need a lot of power (possibly 2 Kw or so). I have no reason to doubt that, as you certainly must know better about your speakers. All I can say that I don't think my speakers (partially shown in my profile picture...) even come close to producing such levels, at least not at the listening position, and certainly not undistorted. I even have no intention to try it out as well..... But I can live with that. They provide me with enough listening pleasure, at much lower levels.
|
@shadorne
You will find few if any speakers that Soundstage found capable of true high fidelity at 95 dB and above. We agree on that point.
Absolutely, well said. Related to this discussion, purposely I had my system up to 98 dba last weekend, and even though it sounded (thundered) still good, everything was shaking in my room and I became somewhat frightened ;) By the way, I used a cd with organ music for that purpose, frequencies possibly as low as 25Hz or so.
So MAYBE, my speaker system can do it, in my room, with the many acoustic corrections done. It's just that I don't think it is necessary for me to go that loud. So yes, maybe my speakers are capable of producing SPL of up to or even over 100 dba at the listening position, it just doesn't make sense. |
@geoffkait
I fully agree with your statement "Furthermore, the distortion you hear as more power is applied might not (rpt not) be produced by the speakers per se as I have pointed out before - I.e., comb filter effects from room anomalies (pressure peaks in room corners and elsewhere, slap echo, standing waves as well as other, uh, less understood phenomenon, beyond scope".
Bottom line is that the chances of hearing distortion at higher (95 dba upwards) are simply much higher. That's why I started this discussion. Why would manufacturers, and/or equipment owners seek the higher SPL to demonstrate the abilities of their equipment, whilst when staying under that value you will be able to judge the equipment much better. Also, because usually the rooms used to demonstrate have little or no acoustic treatment. Anyway, after having read the reactions here, there is a clear indication that a vast majority of the people here will stay way under the 95 dba SPL when listening to music. So, hopefully those involved for demonstrating equipment at shows read this as well ;) |
