Dear Mattmiller: If we take care on the overall audio system each link set up usually we have no need for a rumble filter.
A rumble filter as any filter where the audio signal pass always degrade that signal in many ways and IMHO do more harm than help.
What we have to do is to revise the overall system set up to find out where it comes the feedback that makes the woofers moves.
++++ " So I am wondering why dont a lot more companys sell these things if they are so important? " +++++
because is no important as you can think. I repeat all resides to have a right overall system set up. Forget about rumble filters or any kind of filters. The audio signal does not needs to be filtered to avoid those woofer movements what that is telling you is that you have a problem in your system set up and that it's.
Of course that a filter seller always will tell you that you need it because that's how is taking money from you. With all respect all those satisfied owners of rumble filters are ignorant of what I'm posting here.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Hdm: ++++ " he probably knows a bit about vinyl.... " +++
probably yes but I think he knows more on TT/tonearms and IMHO he is not so good on the subject onh this thread. It's an opinion with huge negative trade-offs.
++++ " You won't "hear" negative results with a good subsonic filter... " +++++
maybe you can't but I can tell you that many of us can hear it. Of course that if the audio system has a poor resolution or our ears are not trained then we can't be aware about.
Now, if you are happy with then good for you.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Hdm: I think that if you take 10 persons with the experience you have and ask about their preferences on use a rumble filter or not use it you could get 9 answers that they don't use it and don't like it ( me between them. ), perhaps by ignorance.
I'm not against your prefrence because you are satisfied with and is you whom have to live hearing it.
Now, maybe I'm ignorant on the subject or I'm missing something or you know for sure something I don't. I would like that you can explain how is that a cartridge signal that pass for a rumble filter that is an additional electronic stage is not degraded ???? IMHO the best rumble filter is NO rumble filter, especially that in normal condition we don't need it.
If any one of us has a problem with those woofer movements and the system set up is correct then something on the audio system links is running wrong or exist a mistmatch in between or simple bad design item and in this case we have to change it.
I don't like to take an aspirin for a headache but is better to know why that headache coming and then fix it.
You like aspirns: good, nothing wrong with that. It's obvious that your music/sound priorities are different from mines that are to lose or add the less to the cartridge signal protecting its sensible integrity to be nearer to the recording.
Regards and enjoy the music,
}R. |
For those filter advcocates remember that there are some amplifiers/preamps with " problems " in its design that suffer of low bass oscilations that could provoke those woofer movements.
As I said IMHO it's always better to fix the headache, that filter is an aspirin that really is solving nothing but degrading the audio signal.
R. |
Dear Actusreus: I have to think that you posted as a joke.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Onhwy61: Well, I think that my post needs some explanation because the inverse RIAA eq. is a " necessary evil ": analog can't exist with out it.
From that point of view, we can't do nothing to " by-pass " it.
IMHO the higher and worst cartridge signal degradation take form through that RIAA eq.. We are talking of a curve with almost 20 +,- eq. over the frequency range where at the end always exist a frequency deviation that preclude flat frequency response. We are near the RIAA recordedd curve but not mimic exactly.
I think that between other critical subjects both RIAA eq. curves are important part of the analog Aquila heel.
No, it has no relation with the thread subject.
regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Actusreus: probably you don't know how filters works so take a look on internet to learn about other that what Onhwy61 posted.
Now, we have a limited frequency range through our ears and obviuously that we can't be aware of a wider frequency range hearing what happen in that wider range but you have to remember that frequencies and distortions generates harmonics too that modulate the frequency range where we " live ".
If we have woofers pumping this is a system anomaly somewhere in the audio system and we have to fix it before try the use an " asprin ".
The analog medium is so imperfect that IMHO we have to take care not doing more " imperfect " creating higher distortions becuase that " asprin ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Dinster: No, RIAA " filter " is not good and damages the audio signal.
In the other side a subsonic filter is not transparent because needs passive or active parts to function and the signal has to pass trough. Now, if the preamp design has it as an option then only damages when is swtiched on and when off ( if was designed that way. ) is out of the audio signal: the signal does no0t pass throught it ( insist, if was designed that way. ).
What I can't understand is why the posts of you are around the rumble filter instead to fix by origine the system woofer movements/pumping. IMHO, makes no sense.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Wolf_garcia: +++++ " Absolutely zero signal degradation... " +++++
no, I don't think so. The important subject here is that even with your: """ carefully and properly set up turntable """"
do you know from where in your system comes that " subsonic crap " that you experienced in your system? because if it's coming from your electronics then that " subsonic crap " is only part of the signal degradation because exist other " things " ( I can't find other word, my english language is very limited. ) generated down there that still affect the signal. In the other side your " tube bias " light's can't help because your unit has a bandwindt that starts at 15 hz that we can't assume as a subsonic one.
My take in this thread is not really about filters but to fix the problem from its origin. This is the only way to preserve ( in that regards. ) the audio signal integrity and the only way that that audio signal stay UNTOUCHABLE by anything.
Got it?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Wolf_garcia: +++++ " My take in this thread is not really about filters but to fix the problem from its origin. " ++++
that's what I posted. You don't care to fix it then continue to enjoy your " asprin ", nothing wrong with that because is you whom have to be satisfied: not me.
My opinion is only that the important opinion is yours because you are the one that must to live with the " asprin ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lewm: I have no " all " solution on that regards because there are different focus where the woofer pumping can comes even an electronics severe subsonic osiilations.
I have not that kind of problem in my system but this does not means I have a precise solution because is system dependent. Many times the woofer pumping is not a very low frequency and I said " system dependent " because there are speakers that by design can't reproduce frequency below 30 hz.
Lewm, my take is that we have to fix the problem by origin but I never said it is an easy task. We have to test each audio system link because maybe you can't belive it but even an IC cables could increment the problem.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lewm: You are right, subs are a good answer and yes always exist trade-offs that in my case I decided for the powered subs trade-offs.
Now, in my system ( and you could make the same in yours. ) I have almost no trade-offs with the subs integration because I'm not using the usual crossover for my main speakers/amplifiers. An explanation of this:
my ML 20.6 monoblocks are coupled at the input by caps and what I did is to change the value of the input cap that along an input reistor ( by design. ) makes the high pass crossover with the advantage that that cap now is of a smaller value and the best teflon kind I found out. I don't have to modify the amplifiers designs but as a fact I improve it.
In that way the main speakers/amplifiers sees only frequencies from 78hz and up and below that crossover frequency the Velodynes takes the task wit its own integrated crossover.
I can tell you that works truly fine and with a huge improvement lowering the IMD in the main speakers. You need to test it this way and if you don't like it just come back to original status.
I know you have the knowledge and skills level to do it.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lewm: I know that you will be pleased when do it the same on your great Sound Labs.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
