Do you think you need a subwoofer?

Actually, this is a great analogue question - Most RIAA equalizers are designed for roll off about the same place as a full range speaker. Here's the wierd part - records can and do go lower. I would be curious if anyone knows why this is even though the spec's for the RIAA say otherwise - maybe the gain/db matching is different? I think subs have more to do with your own ear and the music you prefer: undertones and overtones plus the way the music is engineered are very important. If you're listening to Living End or Charles Mingus you'e going to want one. If you like cello chamber music you are as well. However the only two good subs I've heard with crossover's that work and don't detract or overly color upper frequency output are the Paradigms and the REL's (this only holds true for the Paradigms if you have their speakers as well). Haven't heard Merlin's though. Otherwise if you are using papercones or something, other than Merlin's, I would just stay away, because generally it seems to me speakers in that $4000-$10000 range are better quality anyway. In the under three grand range I really haven't heard anything better than the Paradigms, a point of some contention, but I think it's held up by the fact that every salesperson I've seen posting anonymously here and on positive-feedback has a pair. The Vienna Acoustics, Sonus Farber's and Opera Piega's of the world have enough extension as it is. The Velodyne's to me just seemed to make an under-enthusiastic whomp-whomp sound - a real one note wonder. Of course if you're in a condo or apartment, why bother? A little tube integrated and a pair of bookshelves will fill up your room well enough. With analogue, it will be musical and satifying.

Hey, Black Adder - I happen to agree with you (and thanks for the thumbs up on the system, btw) - room shape, etc. is very important, and the overtones/undertones make the most difference in musicality of presentation. I have no real bias, except for a slight one towards tubes. Natural vibrato, order of harmonics, and an infinite power slope I think makes for flatter response no matter what - I run my sub through my tube preamp, and it opens it up substantially. I dial it down to about 50Hz, which is enough in my mostly wood and stucco bungalow to give the undertones you're talking about. But you know, if someone told me they had a pair of Paradigm S4's, which are a bookshelf speaker, and they liked it with a Cary SLI-80 or the 300SEI, with no subwoofer, I would believe them in a second. I really wouldn't be surprised if a speaker that fast on a flatter power slope would produce a fair amount of undertone/overtone - it's just physics. I'm not sure about how the internal speaker crossover effects this, but I'm beginning to think it's more the quality of parts and manufacture than whether it's a first or third order crossover. Not such a zealot about Paradigm really, I actually prefer paper cones, but some of the more euphonic speakers can make me a little depressed - prettiness and color are nice, but they only get you so far. You need the extra taughhtness and speed to get the true harmonic structure. It's a trade off, and subs add another piece that can make it better or worse. Plus, the Paradigms with metal cones can get glarry if you aren't careful. Then I turn around and ask, Hey, has anyone listened to a DTS disc on their tubes? It sounds amazingly great. No really. Try it. I have no idea why. I think it's the extra gain in DTS and the flatness of response. Also, I wonder if anyone has any experience with supertweeters? For the record, no I haven't heard the DD Velodyne's, and the room I gave them a listen in was dreadful. The Velodyne sound still wouldn't have mixed with the rest of my system very well, either way.

I agree - I only have one on the left channel (where LFE for DVD's is) and with music it really needs to be in the center between the two other speakers or else it sounds not so great. Like, who knew bass players never crossed the stage?

Raul - How do you like your supertweeters. I only get up to about 22000-ish. Is it tiring?

Excellent point Eldertford. And I agree that most manufacturers leave them out because it shows the weakness of their overall construction - crossovers, etc, or weakness of integration of materials (both if you are really unlucky). When this happens the mids and tweeters or the sub come off as more colored when listening to different Hz frequencies individually. Better to have a family sound, I think, and stick with the same products in speaker implementation.

Hey - Goatwuss - The best way with stereo subs is an extra set of outputs on the preamp via RCA - usually I set the volume on the sub to a certain level (using it as gain) then the preamp can be used as a master volume control. And then ditto Raul's set-up instructions.