Do speaker cables need a burn in period?

Prof,There have been a lot of measurements been made.  It's called our "ears" and the data has been recorded by countless of listeners all over the world. Unless you call them all liars or you say our ears are not valid instruments.

Maybe prof is a super rich guy who retires so he got a lot of time typing :-)  If he earns money like I do probably keeps it short.

I am glad somebody brought up Occam's razor.
If you Occam's razor the moon landing, it's probably real.
If you Occam's razor cable break in, it's probably real.

When you erect a monument in memory of my valorous fight, please get the likeness right - I look like a cross between prime era Clint Eastwood and Brad Pitt, if that helps ;-)

If Mrs. Prof doesn't look like Angelina Jolie then it probably doesn't count.

Years from now Hollywood will make movies about a massive world wide conspiracy of cable burn in.  Many lives were destroyed.  Audiophiles husbands were separated from their wives.  Prof was incarcerated for fighting the conspiracy.

Cables are definitely worth the asking coins.  Cables are like car tires.  A car needs a good set of tires for optimal performance.

Prof,
No need to be coy.  Cheap stuffs are cheap.  A Ferrari is expensive for a reasons.  I'd like to hear how you can spin a Toyota is better than a Ferrari.  

Belden is basically some Home Depot stuffs passed up as speakers cables.  

Prof,
You're right.  There is a massive world wide conspiracy in cable break-in.   They make tons of money out of it.  There is something I learned that if there's no money in it, there's nothing in it.  People don't go out of their way to do something for free.

Nonoise,
You can't handle the truth.

finally got some data back on cable burn in that saystoyota better than ferraribelden better than qedplain jane better than jane darling
damn i was fooled.

Why are we back to auditory memory stuffs here.  I feel like we are going back to the stone age.  Something we already talked about.
Like I said, manufacturers have a lot of cables lying around so they can do A - B between new and old cables so there is no need to recall something many days ago.

Nonoise,
Why do you need "auditory memories" when you listen to two components side by side, one after another?  NOT one after another in a week or months?

Nonoise resorting to blah blah blah.

Nonoise,
I still don't think you understand.  When you compare two cables side by side, it's a relative thing.  No need to remember what a "chime" sounds like.  You just need to know relatively how two cables sound with respect to the chime. 

If a person can't tell the difference from listening to something side by side, then there is no point of going any further.  Is that person you?
Are you saying you are incapable of listening to something side by side and cannot tell the difference?  This is the basis of your logic.  How sad.

Nonoise,
It seems like you can't understand simple logic.  I can recapture for you.
When you listen to something side by side one right after another, no need to audio blah blah blah memories.  Unless you say human being not capable hearing or differentiate or making any logical decision.

"One note bass" can be "caused" by any component, not just cables.  Cables are filters when it comes right down to it and affect the sound just like any active components.

If Nonoise is serious enough, maybe he can come up with a definition of "One note bass".

Nonoise is resorting to changing the topic now that he realizes he's wrong.

Let's me repeat:1. If you think cable burn in is false, then there is a massive world wide conspiracy.
2. If you're right, then everybody in the world is wrong.
Just take your pick and move on.

Most people could not tell the sound difference from 10 Gauge speaker cable from Home Depot from a cable costing thousands from some esoteric speaker cable manufacturer.

Most people probably can't tell the difference between different type of wine, coffee, music and so on.  We are talking about high end audio.  It takes a bit of experiences.

Imagine you went to your doctor with a sore throat. The doctor says "Well, obviously you have cancer of the throat!"

You ask "why?"

The doctor says: "Because throat cancer can cause sore throats."

And you say" But...can’t many other things cause sore throats, like maybe I have a cold or a flu? Shouldn’t you show me how you have ruled out those other causes"

Doctor: How DARE you be so dogmatic as to question my diagnosis!

prof, have you lost it? 

I looked at the Darwin website and it seemed to be full of all the dubious justifications as any other high end cable manufacturer. In the "why you should buy Darwin" page, they say they "painstakingly tested by ear..."

Although I agree some (especially online) cables makers are a bit of a suspect, but to say there is a massive world wide conspiracy is something altogether.

I recently bought  a Pass Lab XP10 and initially it sounds quite unacceptable to be honest.  But after a couple of weeks, it's a lot more like it.  I was able to measure the soundstage width and it's definitely wider after burn in. 

Claims that remain controversial among the relevant experts (e.g. I've seen many EEs say why the technical claims made by audiophiles or expensive cable companies are nonsense), and where the explanations are dubious, and the evidence almost purely anecdotal.

Just because somebody made claims you found dubious, does not mean the principal behind it is not true.  I think you should stop attacking cable companies and read a bit more about electrical engineering.  You know like doing something constructive.

https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html

Like I said, human ears are basically transducers like any other sensors but apparently better.  And a human brain is the most complex machine by far than anything human has made.
Apparently prof don't trust brain but would defer to some ineptitude machine.

More "brain burn in" is always a good thing. No wonder many sip the etoh or smoke/vape the herb while listening.

Looks like someone still behind the time.  This has been talked over again and again.  Manufacturers have lots of components that they can compare side by side, some old some brand new, so there is no need to resort to "brain burn in" argument.

Burn in of speakers: Much more plausible than what's been offered for cables.

Just go to : www.diy.com and you'll see people measure speakers drivers and they changed after burn in.  

Cables do make a big difference.  If cables don't make a difference in your system, your system is not good enough.

For most people, instead of learning and understanding science they choose to follow the blind, and have a justification to their foolish (ego trip) quests to brag about their latest piece of equipment. It is mostly about the hardware specs rather than the music.

Well said.  

prof,

sarcasm probably not your best.  stick with philosophy.

I’ve been stuck with junk from Thiel - like Thiel’s last flagship 3.7 speaker that review after review mistakenly took to be world-class in resolution - as well as MBL radialstrahler speakers ( How do they get away with those prices for such a low resolution speaker, let alone fool people like the Absolute Sound who rated the tweeter among the world’s best for many years!), various Audio Physic speakers (if only those speakers could render "detail," they could maybe Audio Physic make a slogan out of it!), Quads, Conrad Johnson amps, Benchmark DACs, Transrotor turntable, Benz Micro ebony cartridge....

I just got a pair of Acoustic Zen Hologram II speaker cables and the difference is night and day. Yes, and I am using Thiel CS2.4.

One thing you can bet your life on is that atom physics and particle physics are *very* mature sciences.

"mature" is a relative term.  One cannot be so arrogant to claim human has known everything about nature.  Quantum physics is not the final words.  For example, dark matter and dark energy : nobody knows anything about it and they comprise about 90% of the universe.  One has to be humble what one knows and what one does not know.

Do you mean a reproducible difference in resistance as measured but is within the noise parameters of an Ohmeter? Because if we’re talking thousanths of an Ohm, that’s noise.

A good DMM can measure DC resistance down to nano-Ohm. 

Cables don’t need burn in. Electrons are in orbital shells in the metal atoms and are not in the least influenced in any lasting or "memory" manner by current applied. This is silly to the point of hilarity to the point of sadness.

False science is worse than no science.  This statement has no basis and oversimplified.

you make an interesting point. I read a piece by Harry Pearson (RIP) in the Absolute Sound decades ago where he basically said that there are unexplainable truths/realities in Audio reproduction due to the limitations of our scientific knowledge. He asked the question about whether we, audiophile hobbyists, felt that science had/has ALL the answers at this point. He obviously felt it didn't. While, to this day, I'm still undecided I'll admit that he's still got me wondering!;)

I actually believe differences from our listening experience can be measured, but our hearing is very complicated and it's hard to devise a measurement technique.  

In the case of cable burn in, it can be measured, but you need very sophisticated equipment which can cost a lot of money and it's not like it's a survival matter so people don't trouble doing it.  If they can hear the difference and it can be explained by basic physics then it's good enough for them.  

Even if you have the equipment, you need to have extensive knowledge in physics and electrical engineering so it's not like push a button kind of thing.  I once saw a website that measure jitter on a bunch of DAC and concluded that cables don't matter.  I mean it's like comparing difference cars using 0-60 number.  Our hearing is much more sophisticated that can be measured by some basic parameters.

Can't we just get along? lol's

Don't flatter yourself. It is not your lucky day.

If I am alive at the end of the day, it's my lucky day.

It would be a sadder much less interesting world if burn-in wasn't true

It would mean the world is a static place with no changes.  I suppose you can look at it from a holistic point of view. 

while (being objective)
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again, please - someone - anyone - please provide some fact-based explanation as to why speaker cables may require breaking in. I will keep an open mind, but I am unaware of why this would make any difference, or any factual attempt to measure such a difference.

I supposed there were people back then who didn't believe the earth is round.  They demanded someone to travel around the earth.  Of course you didn't have to travel around the earth since there were plenty of evidences without having to actually going around the earth.  A lot of smart people already knew that.
You sound like that sort of people who were skeptical back then.

I am not sure why some people are so hostile to cables as if the cables stole their wives :-).  I think some here just want to say outright that cables don't even make any difference but they just didn't want to appear too radical.

de minimis

In my experience, the larger the listening space, the higher end the system, the more difference cables make.  It's not just smoother treble or deeper bass, but more of a three dimensional presentation of music spatially and audibly.

Why do people care so much?

We can talk about Ms. Kate Upton.

I wonder if she's also into music?  What type of system does she have?  Is she tube or solid state?

Microphone back to whoever has more on Ms. Upton.

google.

That is why I mentioned that existence of burn-in may not be important. Regardless of if it exists or not, what can you do about it? It is not worth getting all riled up about it.

All joking aside, for the consumers, cable burn in may not be important since the cables will sound good or bad eventually.  For cables manufacturers, I think it's important since they have to understand how those little electrons will affect the sound.

Did the marketing guy at Audioquest get fired after this?

For an undecided prospective customer, this says "don't bother buying something expensive".

I think you might have misunderstood the purpose
of that article. The excerpt was taken from an
article regarding to their DBS system. It's an
active dielectric bias system that conditions the
dielectric so that the cable will sound optimally
regardless its state. Unlike regular cable, the
dielectric may not perform optimally if not being
listened in awhile. The DBS system will enable
the cable to sound optimally even if it was left
unused.

I might have misunderstood that article, but so would
anyone reading it who was not deeply familiar with
what you mentioned. To us, it simply says
"no matter how hard you try, you are not going
to get there".

I guess one has to create a story in order to advertise
a product. I don't think you can criticize that.
But you could criticize the validity of their claim
with respect to their DBS system. Personally I don't
see why they have to go out of their way creating something
just to sell cables if it does not improve the sound.

In my previous job working in signal integrity,
a circuit board sometimes needs to be baked in heat
to improve jitter performance. It has to do with
dielectric absorbing moisture and when it is baked,
it allows the moisture to escape. So the state
dielectric is pretty important to the electrical
current.

Here is an interesting interview with AudioQuest
founder. The last paragraph is on wire directivity.
(He's a close cousin to GeoffKait).

First, we show that better stranded conductor
design, even with “both hands
behind our back”, as I call the constraints of
a stranded parallel cable, is still an arena in
which considerable improvement is possible,
and with less than half as much metal for less
than half the price.
Then, we use a cable of identical design,
except with solid conductors—a fun process
that usually provokes at least one mumbled
comment to the effect that, “if it’s that
obvious, how come everyone doesn’t do it?”
Good question.
Next, using the exact same solid conductors,
we share the audible performance difference
between parallel and twisted-geometry
cables, where geometry changes alone
can yield a surprisingly more open and
subjectively more dynamic presentation.
Going further, we move to a cable of
identical design, but with higher quality
copper conductors, and once again, the
clear sonic difference has a clear causeand-
effect.
Last in this progression is another pair of the
same better-metal cables, except with our
Dielectric-Bias System (DBS) attached. We
use identical cables except for the DBS—a
controlled experiment with a single variable
in-play: namely, the amount of interference
caused by the insulation, the dielectric.
Directionality is our honorary fifth element
or ingredient, although because it is a factor
always in play with any cable, and not part
of any particular design hierarchy, it doesn’t
quite fit in the same category as the others.
All drawn metal has a directional impedance
variation at higher RF/EMI noise frequencies.
By ‘law’, energy must follow the path of least
resistance, so we employ this impedance
variation as a mechanism for consciously
directing noise either to Earth or to
whichever attached circuit is less vulnerable
to noise. The key is to direct noise to where it
will do the least damage.

This false theory is nothing more than Marketing Mumbo Jumbo created by Dishonorable people to sell crap (Overkill Speaker Cables) to unsuspecting, uneducated victims!

I don’t understand how cable burn in helps sell cables? If I were a cable manufacturer, if it weren’t for cable burn in, people wouldn’t buy my cables?I would think people buy cables for the sound quality. I don’t think they care about burn in. In fact, it’s better if the cables do not need burn in because they can enjoy the cables right away, instead having to wait for 300hrs.

In my experience, speakers cables make more difference
than DAC.

For now, the opponents are a bit more eloquent in refuting it theoretically.

Eloquent is the enemy of truth.  That's why communism and marxism sound really good.

Seems like the non believers care more about being eloquent than being logical.