agear OP
1,197 posts
10-28-2016 9:47am
Geoffkait:There it is! English Major! If I can make an observation: it’s not really that unusual for audiophiles to make fun of things that are new to them or things they do not or cannot understand. ;-)
"Nope. You assume English major since my command of the language is superior to the introductory level English you learned during your first year of E-school. That is not saying much. I spent 9 years there with a emphasis on "biological sciences" if that helps."
Fair enuff. ;-)
"As for lampooning things I don’t understand, PhD level scientists in the same disciplines as Sheldrake call him a pseudoscientist. Being a pseudoscientist and apologist for New Age woo woo is a lot easier than being an actual scientist. There is no data. Just rhetoric."
It’s a concept silly. you know, like the theory of relativity. Like the concept of black holes. Duh!
Scientists thought Einstein was full of it, too. The Newtonians had a brain hemorrhage. They thought Schroedinger was a crackpot. Ditto Heisenberg. Scientists must be brought around to new or contradictory ideas very very slowly. You know, they think they learned it all in school. Just because some idea or concept is controversial doesn’t necessarily mean it’s wrong. Follow? You mention some PhD level scientists who disagree with Sheldrake. I trust you aren’t trying to say that ALL PhD level scientists disagree with him. You realize, that would be kind of uh, stupid. You don't really think all PhDs thunk alike, do you?
If Morphic Resonance is not real you better alert the hundreds of customers of mine who have my products based on Morphic resonance. Send in the Marines! And let’s go one step further and speculate that my products, you know, the ones based on Morphic resonance, just might be the most popular audio products sold right here on A-gon. Gulp! Even the most die hard skeptic cannot put the Genie back in the bottle. You can think of it like the atomic bomb.
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mapman
13,831 posts
10-28-2016 3:06pm
Gk I'll let you handle running your mouth and showing off how smart you are yet how little you actually accomplish. You should be thanking everyone for even paying any attention to you.
More nothin' ...an empty suit. |
mapman
13,835 posts
10-28-2016 8:01pm
I’m not a seismologist but I was a geology major in college and did study geophysics. We never covered the effects on hifis. Go figure!
But off the cuff if your walls arent rattling I would not worry about it.
I did do a research project in grad school that won an award. It was on effects of earthquakes in the New Madrid Missouri area where the largest earthquakes in US history occurred. Even there I would not worry about it affecting my sound. It’s a silly topic really.
Just my 2 cents. I know gk cares. 😉
............
Looking on the bright side, at least Mapman estimated the value of his post correctly, about 2 cents. You know, saying you don't care about the topic is really not a very effective argument in any discussion. I suspect it's probably best in Mapman's particular case to remain out of topics that he's either ignorant of or has no interest. For someone who's only motive seems to be boosting his post total this bizarre strategy is bound to get him in deep kim chi.
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agear wrote,
"I understand that. That’s true of my field as well. Things start that way. But the data eventually follows if its true. Furthermore, Einstein, Schoedinger and the like did a lot of intellectual legwork to ground their ideas. Sheldrake is not in the same neighborhood."
You apprently have no idea what you’re talking about. Sheldrake is a PhD from Cambridge who has written a slew of books including the landmark The Presence of the Past. Intellectual is as intellectual does. It’s all in the concept, Ollie. You have to start somewhere. That’s where the genius is. The math can be done later by the drudges. A journey starts with a single step, grasshopper.
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Agear wrote,
Geoffkait:If Morphic Resonance is not real you better alert the hundreds of customers of mine who have my products based on Morphic resonance.
"MR is superimposed onto your products. It is not necessarily the reason they work."
Actually MR is precisely the reason they work and I can prove it. By careful testing all competing theories of operation, birth conventional and unconventional, can be eliminated. Voila!
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agear OP
1,201 posts
10-29-2016 9:49am
Geoffkait:You apprently have no idea what you’re talking about. Sheldrake is a PhD from Cambridge who has written a slew of books including the landmark The Presence of the Past. Intellectual is as intellectual does. It’s all in the concept, Ollie. You have to start somewhere. That’s where the genius is. The math can be done later by the drudges. A journey starts with a single step, grasshopper.
""Presence of the Past"? LOL. How about "Absence of Evidence." Being an apologist or apostle of woo woo does not make you an expert, just another guessing fool. I assume you consider Deepak Chopra a genius too by your metric?
Along with rudimentary English composition, was there an introduction to logic class offered during your freshman year at E school? Not show up much to class?"
Actually The Presence of the Past is filled with logically laid out evidence of Morphic resonance. Saying there is no evidence is actually a typical undergraduate mistake in logic, you know, since you have not even looked at the evidence. Btw I have more semester hours than you do and more difficult course material. So you can drop the pretense that you’re some some of Master debater. I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. The problem with your logic is you use a PhD, your Pop, to refute Morphic resonance. But that doesn’t make sense, it’s an appeal to authority. Just because your Pop is a PhD in the SAME FIELD doesn't mean Morphic resonance is NOT REAL. That's a, you know, fallacious argument. Same with using your biology background an Dumpty ump years in school. Strictly a fallacious argument. Follow?
have a nice weekend |
Randy-11 wrote,
"Sheldrake is a debunked non-scientist. Don’t confuse science with ’intellectualism" -- it shows you do not understand science at all.
In reality Sheldrake is rather successful, my pointy headed friend. To whit,
Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist and author of more than 80 scientific papers and ten books. He was among the top 100 Global Thought Leaders for 2013, as ranked by the Duttweiler Institute, Zurich, Switzerland’s leading think tank. He studied natural sciences at Cambridge University, where he was a Scholar of Clare College, took a double first class honours degree and was awarded the University Botany Prize (1963). He then studied philosophy and history of science at Harvard University, where he was a Frank Knox Fellow (1963-64), before returning to Cambridge, where he took a Ph.D. in biochemistry (1967). He was a Fellow of Clare College, Cambridge (1967-73), where he was Director of Studies in biochemistry and cell biology. As the Rosenheim Research Fellow of the Royal Society (1970-73), he carried out research on the development of plants and the ageing of cells in the Department of Biochemistry at Cambridge University. While at Cambridge, together with Philip Rubery, he discovered the mechanism of polar auxin transport, the process by which the plant hormone auxin is carried from the shoots towards the roots.
In his most recent book (2012), called The Science Delusion in the UK and Science Set Free in the US, he examines the ten dogmas of modern science, and shows how they can be turned into questions that open up new vistas of scientific possibility. This book received the Book of the Year Award from the British Scientific and Medical Network.
In 2000, he was the Steinbach Scholar in Residence at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute in Cape Cod, Massachusetts. From 2005-2010 he was the Director of the Perrott-Warrick Project, funded from Trinity College, Cambridge University. He is also a Fellow of the Institute of Noetic Sciences in California, a Visiting Professor at the Graduate Institute in Connecticut, a Fellow of Schumacher College in Devon, England, and a Fellow of the Temenos Academy, London.
He received the 2014 Bridgebuilder Award at Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles, a prize established by the Doshi family "to honor an individual or organization dedicated to fostering understanding between cultures, peoples and disciplines." In 2015, in Venice, Italy, he was awarded the first Lucia Torri Cianci prize for innovative thinking.
Randy-11 also wrote,
"The same applies to the spurious notion that morphic woo-woo has to be proven wrong. One always has to show experimental evidence for something before it will get any acceptance in science."
There has been experimental evidence of Morphic resonance. You’re just a little too uh, uninformed to know where to find it. I also stated careful testing of my Morphic resonance based products prove Morphic resonance is not only REAL but is the OPERATING MECHANISM for how those products WORK. Products such as the Teleportation Tweak, Morphic Message Labels, Quantum Temple Bell, the Ultra Signature Version of the Clever Little Clock, Blue Meanies and Green Meanies. Hel-loo!
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agear OP 1,202 posts 10-29-2016 6:38pm Actually The Presence of the Past is filled with logically laid out evidence of Morphic resonance. Such as? Speculative Biology is fun reading much like the Tao of Physics and other quantum pablum. Much of it has the same intellectual merit as science fiction. There is some merit in it but not enough to build a company around. Saying there is no evidence is actually a typical undergraduate mistake in logic, you know, since you have not even looked at the evidence. Again, quote something specific for us as examples. For a formal deconstruction of Sheldrake’s "crimes against reasons can be found here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/feb/05/evolution Btw I have more semester hours than you do and more difficult course material. No you don’t. I have 19 yrs of formal education and training. You have 4. So you can drop the pretense that you’re some some of Master debater. No pretense needed. I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. Based on the construction of both your arguments and garbled mentation, one has to wonder. The problem with your logic is you use a PhD, your Pop, to refute Morphic resonance. no, it refutes itself. But that doesn’t make sense, it’s an appeal to authority. Ironically, that is what Deepak Chopra (and by sins of association) Sheldrake pull: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropology/2015/07/professor-jerry-coyne-explains-why-deepak-chopra-... Just because your Pop is a PhD in the SAME FIELD doesn’t mean Morphic resonance is NOT REAL. That’s a, you know, fallacious argument. That wasn’t the argument Einstein. Hel-looo? Same with using your biology background an Dumpty ump years in school. Strictly a fallacious argument. Follow? No, I don’t follow. I think we need an addendum aphorism to Einstein’s quip about education being what’s left. How about this: Knowledge is what remains after time has robbed the mind of facts. The mind then attempts to fill in the blanks through a process called confabulation which to the impassive observer appears like magical thinking. Enter the neoshamans Sheldrake and Chopra..... With addresses each one of your comments specifically I think it’s a safe to say your arguments are actually just more mistakes in logic. Appeals to authority, illogical association with Chopra, illogical appeal to number of years of study,meta. Gee whiz, agear if time on the job was a real measure of anything all audiophiles with 30 years of experience would be geniuses and have really great sound. Of course that’s not true. It appears to me you are simply a victim of the Backfire Effect, the more contradictory evidence that’s presented the more the person clings to his beliefs. One imagines you will argue this subject until you’re blue in the face, which in think is probably already blue. One also imagines they don’t teach real open mindedness in the College. They do in the E school. It's not how long you studied or trained, it's the quality of that study and training. It’s always nice to engage someone who keeps coming back with these really good examples of illogical arguments AND attitude. LOL what’s funny is you are blissfully unaware of what you are even arguing against, I.e., Morphic resonance. Hel-loo! from intro to Zen and Art of Debunkery: As the millennium turns, science seems in many ways to be treading the weary path of the religions it presumed to replace. Where free, dispassionate inquiry once reigned, emotions now run high in the defense of a fundamentalized "scientific truth." As anomalies mount up beneath a sea of denial, defenders of the Faith and the Kingdom cling with increasing self-righteousness to the hull of a sinking paradigm. Faced with provocative evidence of things undreamt of in their philosophy, many otherwise mature scientists revert to a kind of skeptical infantilism characterized by blind faith in the absoluteness of the familiar. Small wonder, then, that so many promising fields of inquiry remain shrouded in superstition, ignorance, denial, disinformation, taboo . . . and debunkery. • Put on the right face. Cultivate a condescending air certifying that your personal opinions are backed by the full faith and credit of God. Adopting a disdainful, upper-class manner is optional but highly recommended. • Employ vague, subjective, dismissive terms such as "ridiculous," "trivial," "crackpot," or "bunk," in a manner that purports to carry the full force of scientific authority. • Keep your arguments as abstract and theoretical as possible. This will send the message that accepted theory overrides any actual evidence that might challenge it -- and that therefore no such evidence is worth examining. • By every indirect means at your disposal imply that science is powerless to police itself against fraud and misperception, and that only self-appointed vigilantism can save it from itself. .......................... have a nice weekend |
Why can’t the Internet be used as intended - a convenient and effective means for the exchange of ideas for people who wish to learn about the fascinating hobby of audio? A sharing of ideas Mano a Mano, whatever.
;-)
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mapman
13,842 posts
10-31-2016 10:29am
Just follow the golden rule and things will be fine. Internet changes nothing there.
I believe in the Golden Rule, too. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Only do it first. |
mapman
13,847 posts
10-31-2016 3:18pm
Agear, critical thinking requires work and effort and a certain degree of humility even. keep on dreaming!
Good comeback! Brutal! :-) Map-o-Rama!
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mapman steps up to the plate. He looks the ball over carefully.
Mapman takes a swing,
"I’ll re-iterate my 2 cents from earlier FWIW and kindly bow out adding only that stands are part of the solution but alone may in fact accomplish something, little or nothing.
"Its clear vibrations can have an effect on electronics. Keep increasing the magnitude of vibrations and eventually the effects will become clear.
What’s relevant though is do they actually have an effect that is audible and matters?
The correct answer of course is maybe. The greater the magnitude of vibrations at various frequencies and the more delicate the electronics the more the chance.
The practical approach I apply is to do everything possible to provide a solid foundation for gear to sit on. Speakers especially."
He swings! he misses! The mighty Mapman has struck out. There will be no joy in Mudville today.
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dlcockrum
404 posts
11-01-2016 10:48am
Geoff,
Why are you always so angry? So much in life really is important, but not this.
Dave
Dave, I'm not angry. I don't get angry. I get even. Nothing is more alarming than a reformed troll.
again, have a nice day
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theaudiotweak
1,388 posts
11-01-2016 4:41pm
Even if it floats it will still suffer from shear wave interference. It needs to be rigidly coupled to remove and dissipate the polarity of shear that becomes a part of the signal. Tom. Star Sound Technologies
Sorry, Tom, but that statement cannot possibly be true. If it were true, which it’s not, the LIGO project to detect gravity waves produced by merging galaxies, merging black holes and the Big Bang would never have been able to develop isolation systems capable of reducing the seismic background noise sufficiently to be able to observe gravity waves with amplitudes on the order of the diameter of a neutron. Which, by the way, is much much smaller than the diameter of an atom. Follow?
Have a nice week,
Geoff Kait
machina dynamica
give me a strong enough spring and I'll isolate the world |
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Audiopoint wrote,
Huh??? 40 years here and another 40 there… Read ON!
Question: “40 years between us”; is that similar to “collectively”? Mr. Kait, you might check with Mr. Townshend and get legal permission before you consider him your adopted brother.
Whoa! What? Are you serious? What’s up with all the stupid remarks? Were you at the knee of you know who a little too long?
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theaudiotweak wrote,
"The Ligo system maybe designed to destroy all polarities of shear and maybe it works well at that function to extract and detect gravity waves.
Polarties of shear..are a part of the mechanical function of speakers and other reproduced audio signal ..signals that will be reduced in amplitude by your methods and others you tout. Key negative words to descibe your methods..Canellation and forces to overcome the Interia your methods present to any thing that has a chance of motion for reproducing a copy of the original signal. Think of a voice coil..think of stylus motion. They have to overcome the body of resistance and counter action your wares present to any responsive and linear motion."
LIGO places all the detectors in a very high vacuum. Do you think that helps with your issue? As I have stated I’m a big fan of damping the top plate of my or any iso systems as some vibration from the floor is obviously being transmitted to the component, not to mention any self induced noise or acoustic wave influences. My devices - like all mass on spring devices - allow *ease of motion* in direction of interest, ease of motion being the opposite of inertia, no? Very stiff materials are good for resisting bending moments and using very hard materials (recall the NASA grade diamond hardness ceramics) are excellent for allowing vibrations to exist the system rapidly.
Have I missed anything?
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theaudiotweak
1,390 posts
11-02-2016 10:53am
Solids in a vacuum will transmit shear from part to part. Maybe your LIGO model and reference has system parts that kill or cancel all polarities of shear. Some polarities of shear are required for audio reproduction others are not. Tom. Star Sound
What causes the shear you’re referring to? The LIGO detectors don’t vibrate themselves, they’re excited to vibrate by external vibrations. That’s kind of the whole point. Unless you’ve got some sort of perpetual motion machine, here. So far you're not making sense. And as Judge Judy sez, if it doesn't make sense it's not true. Let’s try this. Rather than have you repeat your statement over and over try explaining what you’re referring to. Do you have a wiki page? Can you explain it yourself? When I talk about isolation I’m referring to isolating a component from external structureborne vibration. So somehow we’re on the same page yet. LIGO has the world’s greatest experts on vibration isolation. Somehow I’m getting the impression the guys at Star Sound do not know what isolation even is.
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Agear wrote,
"You have missed everything as nothing concrete has been stated or verified (much like your guru Sheldrake). "My devices...allow ease of motion in the direction of interest..."? Say what?"
Why do I have the feeling you’re hearing all this for the first time? I explained what I meant, anyway. You’re just being obtuse, or pretending to be obtuse. Can’t tell.
"As the OP, the intellectual innuendo behind this thread is this: does any data exist to justify the use of stands with electronics? Thus far, we have have paranormal theory and talk of the occult influence of seismologic phenomena but nothing more. Anyone?"
Actually that’s not true. But that’s what a troll would say. Maybe time to head to the library, eh? Of you’re looking for data you need look no further than the fact more than 10,000 audiophiles have purchased Vibraplane isolation. Oh, wait I almost forgot. You’re a skeptic that cannot be convinced of anything. You probably think it’s paranormal or group hypnosis. To be so skeptical about vibration isolation, you know, 20 years after the introduction of vitbration isolation to audiophiles doesn’t really reflect well on your progress in this hobby. You call yourself Ag Ear but can you even hear?
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dlcockrum
416 posts
11-02-2016 11:57am
Hi geoffkait,
Good discussion (mostly) on reducing/eliminating external vibration. What about internal vibration of components? I may have missed that earlier in the thread or elsewhere...
Best to you geoffkait,
Dave
We have covered internally produced vibration earlier. Even this morning I mentioned it somewhere along the line, when I mentioned damping the top plate of an iso stand and using extremely hard materials to evacuate vibration rapidly from the system.
Turntable motor noise, CD transport motor noise, transformer noise, capacitor noise, things of that nature can be addressed by damping techniques such as constrained layer damping. But for very low frequency seismic type vibration means other than damping or even Coulomb friction must be employed. Enter vibration isolation!
have a nice day, Dave
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Dave wrote,
"Coincidentally, I mentioned to another audiophile friend of mine that we used an air table sitting atop a huge slab of granite underneath the electron microscope we used to perform ASIC post-mortums in my electronics manufacturing division and suggested that he consider an air table underneath his digital source in his ultra-high-end system. His response was that that type of vibration-control technology was extremely outdated. I begged to differ and we ended that discussion by agreeing to disagree."
When you say air table I trust you mean airspring table. Things are more complicated than I’ve let on, aren’t they always? and any type of iso stand can be tricky if one wishes to obtain the best possible performance. That’s why isolation is an art as much as a science. For example, some air spring have more internal damping than others. Minimizing the number of airsprings improves performance all things being equal as does selecting proper means of interfacing the component to the top plate and interfacing the stand itself to whatever surface it sits on. As I also already mentioned different types of isolation can sometimes be mixed, providing additional gains in performance. Of course the spring rate of whatever steel springs or air springs are employed must be matched to the load of interest.
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Theaudiotweak wrote,
"When energy is applied to soft spongy materials that are used in combinations with springs supporting a loudspeaker, everything supported remains in a state of continuous motion. By doing so, this negates the operational efficiency of a voice coil as the coil itself becomes subjected to this secondary flexing. Ultimately, the voice coil drives the entire speaker assembly and has to overcome the added inertia presented by the motion of the springs and soft materials upon which the cabinet rests. The constant motion and flexing with this type of isolation device manifests inefficiencies within the operational design of the voice coil."
i have been preaching pretty much the same thing, I.e., use only very hard materials for interfacing with iso systems. I actually don't know of any isolation devices that employ soft spongy material with springs but maybe there are some, who knows? This concept of soft spongy materials is somewhat related to the idea that one should not use spring type systems in series, for example arbitrarily using a spring-based iso device with a turntable with springy or rubbery feet. I have constructed dual layer mass-spring systems but certain precautions must be designed in to prevent interactions between layers.
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agear OP
1,221 posts
11-03-2016 1:25am
Geoffkait: LIGO has the world’s greatest experts on vibration isolation.
"Invite them to this thread to educate us....or conduct a video interview."
Hahahaha. I hate to judge before all the facts are in but you are apparently immune from education. You know, when you post an OP with an "innocent question" then refuse to accept any answer, that makes you a _________ (fill in the blank). I suppose it would have helped if your 14 years in school and training had included some, just a little, basic physics. The concepts are not really that difficult. The LIGO isolation took 20 years to develop to the point the background noise could be reduced enough so that a gravity wave with amplitude of the diameter of a neutron could be differentiated from seismic noise, which has frequencies in the same range as the gravity waves. Hel-loo!
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Agear wrote,
"You have not missed anything since that point has been obfuscated and thus my attempt to refocus the thread. Seismic juju is a red herring as is discussion of speakers, etc. Does vibration of any form effect electrical performance in electronics and why? Sheldrake and his magic carpet ride of morphic resonance is not an acceptable answer. Someone can start another thread on mysticism and audio or religion and audio and what belief structures facilitate joy in audio. Are we trying to enter into the holy of holies through music, etc. That would be interesting but back to the subject at hand."
Something’s being obfuscated all right and someone’s apparently having trouble following the discussion or attempting to manhandle the discussion (and it’s not Dave). The whole side discussion about Morphic resonance was separate from any discussion about mechanical vibration, seismic vibration, equipment influence on electonics or vibration isolation or LIGO for that matter. And I think you probably know it. Guess what that makes you? Youuuu know... Pop quiz: (multiple choice) a botanist, b theoretical physicist, c genetic researcher, d troll.
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agear OP wrote,
Geoffkait: Actually that’s not true. But that’s what a troll would say. Maybe time to head to the library, eh? Of you’re looking for data you need look no further than the fact more than 10,000 audiophiles have purchased Vibraplane isolation. Oh, wait I almost forgot. You’re a skeptic that cannot be convinced of anything. You probably think it’s paranormal or group hypnosis. To be so skeptical about vibration isolation, you know, 20 years after the introduction of vitbration isolation to audiophiles doesn’t really reflect well on your progress in this hobby. You call yourself Ag Ear but can you even hear?
to which agear replied,
"That’s not proof of concept. Since you cannot generate a valid argument or data, maybe having just one of the 10,000 philes chime in on their experiences. We have heard your jingles one too many times."
I never said it was proof of concept. I said it was evidence that vibration isolation improves the sound. That's what your trollish OP is asking! right? Apparently you haven’t been paying *enough* attention to my jingles. Maybe you should change your moniker to Sn ear or Sn horn. ;-)
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Tom at Star Sound wrote,
"Geoff, Your saying your springs do not rotate or twist on their vertical axis, more so when they are longer?"
No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying that depending on the number of springs and the spring rate and load they can twist around the vertical. But since multiple springs are generally used the resistance to twist is increased according to the number of springs, so for 3 or 4 springs the resistance to twist is great. My original Nimbus sub Hertz iso decide was relatively free to move in the twist direction as well as the two other rotational directions since it employed a single spring. Recall I just got through saying isolation is proportional to the ease of motion in a direction of interest. And when the component does move it is constrained to move at only one frequency - the resonant frequency of the isolating device. The low pass filter disallows motion in other frequencies, except for the ones below the Fr.
Tom also wrote,
"Your saying your springs don’t have a variable rate of rise and decay time in relation to the amount of force applied? If they do then they are in motion.
I’m not saying the springs don’t move. Of course they move. Hel-loo!
To which Tom added,
"Your saying your springs are immune to the rotational forces of some wave types? The soft spongy materials are only iceing on the layered cake ..the spring being as stable as a layer cake. Anything resting on either of these two transient surfaces will be in motion."
I’m not saying the springs are immune to rotational forces. As I said above it defends on how much lateral support the spring(s) provide. Usually multiple springs mean lots of lateral support thus less isolation in the twist OR other toe rotational directions. That what the degrees of freedom indicates. Most iso systems one sees around are not the full 6 degrees of freedom type, while are more technically challenging. The isolation that springs provide to rotational forces obey the same physical laws as they do for isolating in the vertical direction - they act as low pass mechanical filters. That’s precisely why I mentioned yesterday that mixing different types of iso devices can be rewarding in terms of performance. For example, springs (vertical) plus roller bearing assemblies (twist and rock and roll and some horizontal). So if it’s isolation in the twist or other rotational directions that floats your boat as it were then maybe just use roller bearing assemblies. My original Nimbus could move easily in the twist direction because it employed only a single air spring so it did not have much lateral support, which is both a problem for supporting higher loads and a bonus since the twist isolation is improved over conventional multiple air spring designs. The geometry of my air spring was also superior to the air bladders generally employed by iso devices.
To summarize my answer, the isolation is provided by the ability to move. If the component is resting on a stable solid base (no isolation) it will still move along with the floor and the shaking all over motion the house is forced into by seismic forces, including Earth crust motion (microseisms).
Cheers,
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
"give me a string enough spring and I’ll isolate the world" |
theaudiotweak
1,393 posts
11-03-2016 3:36pm
I have and I strongly suggest to mechanically direct couple all internal major parts of an audio component. Nothing is decoupled in my power amps. These parts include transformers and any all filter caps that are chassis mounted. I have direct coupled the 4lb copper heat sink that stands vertically and has attached the 2 power mosfets which is then bolted to the bottom plate of the chassis. The main circuit assembly is mounted to our Sound Works platform and tensioned thru the board and out thru the chassis frame below and secured.. All of these parts reside on Audio Points and our coupling discs and must be secured and clamped into place for maximum audio performance and safety concerns. I had cut and drilled brass cylinders that mount near the non existent corners to which the top and bottom plates are tensioned. The whole component is then mounted externally to one of our Sistrum or Rhythm Platforms with our points which face north to the 3 tensioned internal connecting rods.. This was certainly an exercise of will but the payoff is high... and wall to wall tall, with resolution that extends past my listening chair. The endeavor was to make all the internal vibration go in one primary direction..to ground. To do this, like geometry and materials are required to maintain speed and operational efficiency. Tom
I realize I’ve probably asked you this question before but now that you’ve taken case of the vibrations produced by motors, transformers, etc. In the component and vibrations that might wind up there due to acoustic forces how did you address the seismic vibrations? It appears you’re ignoring them. Maybe you are thinking the seismic vibrations go up and are are taken back down by the Audio Points, or perhaps you believe the Audio Points disallow seismic vibrations from being transmitted up to the component, who knows? Am I missing something? I hate to judge before all the facts are in but you guys appear to be behaving like the proverbial ostrich with his head in the sand. It may very well have been an "exercise of will" but apparently you willed the whole seismic isolation argument away with a wave of your hand. Speaking of which whatever happened to your seismic waves?
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Mapman wrote,
"Or those transmitted through the floor or can occur whenever gear does not set on a solid and firm foundation."
The problem is that even when gear is set on a solid foundation as you put it, the gear is still vibrating. That’s because the entire house is shaking due to the microseismic activity, traffic, etc. This is precisely why audiophiles found out a long time ago that all efforts to build a rigid, solid foundation for their gear are for naught compared to isolating the gear. The building, house, whatever is not only moving up and down but side to side and in all rotational directions. Cool, huh? Like a boat out in the ocean when a wave passes under it, the boat moves up and down, forward and back and rolls back and forth. Capish?
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theaudiotweak
1,394 posts
11-03-2016 4:12pm
Geoff
The response is coming soon and what you have exercised for 20 years or more has nothing to do with how LIGO operates as it does not relate to your audio products.. In your instance, it is not a single case of suspended animation..Tom
That’s a pretty bold statement, Tom. I have not idea what you’ve got up your sleeve but you better believe I’m on pins and needles. Heck, I don’t even know what you’re saying so color me embarrassed. I even tried using my decoder ring. It sounds really intriguing though and I can't wait to see what you little monkeys will say next.
geoff kait
machina dynamica
advanced audio concepts
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Mapman asked what I use in my setup.
Stage 1 - The Bio Mikro G utilizes bamboo, viscoelastic material and pure glass microspheres to mimic a woodpecker head’s bone, elastic layer and spongy layer, respectively, surrounding the bird’s brain. Without such evolutionary features, the woodpecker would surely damage his brain and or die.
Stage 2 - Diamond harness NASA grade ceramic cones underneath the Bio Mikro G.
Stage 3 - Cryo’d super low spring rate steel springs between the Bio Mikro g and the Sony Walkman.
Stage 4 - Constrained layer damping of my own design, VibraBlock
Stage 5 - Mpingo disc and Diamond Hardness cones placed on top of the top plate of the Bio Mikro G for further quieting of the top plate.
this Sony Walkman system minimizes all the things that would ordinarily vibrate in a larger system. It also minimizes or eliminates cabling, fuses, transformers, power cords, house AC, AC ground. You know, things that are inherently problematic. Not to mention this system obviously avoids all room issues. I view that as a good thing. Lol
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Mapman wrote,
"Ever try try just holding it? The body would provide a lot of damping of both s and p waves."
Gosh, that must be from the engineer’s side of your head.
Mapman also wrote,
"I have spring loaded rotating adjustable feet under my dac. They were rather pricey in their day especially for Radio Shack. I had them though and use them and they work great as best I can tell. My digital sounds awesome if I might be so bold to say."
That sounds about right. I've heard that the best milk comes from contented cows.
have a nice day
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dlcockrum
428 posts
11-03-2016 9:54pm
"spring loaded rotating adjustable feet"
Sounds like a great product development idea...
It should probably be mentioned the only thing that's adjustable is the height since springs are linear devices. So you can't change a spring's spring rate by changing it's height. Only from the mind of Radio Shack.
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Theaudiotweak wrote,
"Geoff
The response is coming soon and what you have exercised for 20 years or more has nothing to do with how LIGO operates as it does not relate to your audio products.. In your instance, it is not a single case of suspended animation..Tom"
Gosh, Tom, does this mean the mysterious seismologist is going to jump into the fray? Or has she departed for uh, greener pastures? Or is it just a case of discretion being the better part of valor?when you wrote, "what you have exercised for 20 years or more..." did you mean to say, "what you have exorcized for 20 years or more..."? Just curious.
have a nice day |
theaudiotweak
1,395 posts
11-04-2016 9:58am
Stasis: a period or state of inactivity or equilibrium.
Something a spring can never achieve. Tom. Star Sound
tom, no offense intended and I hate to judge before all the facts are in but apparently you have not grasped the whole mass on spring concept. The idea of mass on spring isolation is to *stop* the component from vibrating. Hel-loo! I honestly cannot tell if you're being deliberately dense or if that's just natural. No offense intended.
have a nice day
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mapman
13,893 posts
11-04-2016 11:49am
You got it. The spring loaded inner portion of my footers are the part that rotates. It provides the ability to level and provides stability compared to a spring alone. I suspect this would help against those nasty p waves in particular should they ever beckon to keep the gear from rocking like a horse. You rotate the inner portion to the height desired. These things work like a charm and would cost a fortune today. Who knew Radio Shack had it in them?
Getting back to reality for a second, the spring rate of the springs in those silly Radio Shack footers aren’t low enough to you know do anything. They are too stiff. In order to compete with the real iso devices the springs need to be quite springy, you know, to be able to get the resonant frequency down to an audiophile level. Let’s say 3 or 4 Hz shall we? Nevertheless I have a feeling Radio Shack sold a bunch. We all know about bliss and what constitutes bliss. Lol
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dlcockrum
431 posts
11-04-2016 11:33am
Hi Geoff,
It seems that many manufacturers of spring-type footers have a range of loads for each offering. I understand that matching the spring to the exact load is optimal, but is there not a range for each spring that would deliver significant gains?
I also specify a range of loads. It wouldn’t make sense otherwise. Since the resonant frequency is a square root function of load and spring rate the iso device is not terribly sensitive to load for a given spring rate; of course one can add mass to obtain the desired load in the case a component is a little lightweight for a given set of springs, no? For example, if one were to use a maple board the mass of the maple board would be added to the mass of the component to get the total load. I have some customers with VERY heavy turntables, you know, big VPIs, Verdiers and Ravens, and monster amps circa with VERY HEAVY marble slabs on my springs for the isolation. In such a case the mass of the large marble slab is quite significant when coming up with the number of springs required. Which reminds me: the number of springs is another variable, spring rate is not the only variable. There are many ways to skin a cat.
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dlcockrum
429 posts
11-04-2016 8:18am
Hi Geoff,
"Understood, but wouldn’t a few different models with differing spring rates be sufficient to handle the majority of gear?"
Was it yesterday I said spring rate had to be matched to the load? I have different springs for different loads, from 1 lb to 300 lb.
"Would the rotational feature within the base be beneficial?"
Probably not.
"The height adjustment would simply function to level the gear?"
Springs are self leveling. If you can't move the springs manually move the component. It's not rocket science.
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theaudiotweak
1,396 posts
11-04-2016 11:07am
Geoff you are offensive. You called me a monkey and dense.
As I stated a spring is never in a static state even when loaded. Your example of saying a spring is self leveling proves they can never reach the level of stasis. Springs will rotate when in motion as they have poor rotational rigidity. Tom
Sorry, Tom, but you just don’t get it. I never said there was no motion. In fact I said there definitely was motion with springs. My company name Machina Dynamica literally means moving machines. Please do yourselves a big favor and Google mass-on-spring isolation. That will save us both a lot of pain. Especially you. And I hate to point this out but in fact springs have very good rotational resistance. Especially when there is more than one spring. And when the springs are very stiff...like my springs. Don’t be a donkey or a monkey.
Cheers and have a nice day
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audiopoint
47 posts
11-04-2016 7:58pm
Kait says - “That’s because the entire house is shaking due to the microseismic activity, traffic, etc. This is precisely why audiophiles found out a long time ago that all efforts to build a rigid, solid foundation for their gear are for naught compared to isolating the gear.”
To which Audiopoint replied,
"We cannot hear or feel our houses shaking therefore have no idea as to the validity of microseismic activity wreaking havoc on our sound systems."
Oh, brother! I never said said you could hear or feel it. You cannot hear or feel RFI/ EMI either. Just because you cannot hear of feel low frequency vibration isn’t really evidence of anything. Just because you have no idea as to the validity of microseismic activity (effects) is not really of importance to me.
Then Audiopoint wrote,
"Star Sound Platforms are rigid and so are the majority of racking designs sold in this Industry. The minority involves spring isolation. You were one of a couple manufacturing racks built on spring concepts so if your rack was that good, where is it now?"
Oh, brother! I never designed or sold racks. Are you confused? I have explained many times why solid platforms and racks can only be partial solutions. Have you been asleep? As I’ve said almost all seismic isolation devices are based on springs, specifically on the mass on spring concept. A concept, by the way, that apparently has been lost on you.
then Audiopoint wrote,
"I have never encountered springs in a recording facility, never encountered springs in musical instruments, never noticed them in sound rooms or studios and never saw them on lathe foundations when cutting masters for vinyl. The only time I experienced springs in audio and/or racking was from two or three companies (copycats included) involved in developing high end audio vibration management systems and I am not stating anything here related to performance so do not go off the deep end again. We are just wondering where all the Industry support has gone."
I never made racks. I cannot explain why more folks don’t use isolation although - as I’ve already pointed out - a great many already do. You haven’t forgotten already hVe you? 10,000 Vibraplnes. Just because you never encounter vibration isolation products actually doesn’t concern me, or surprise me.
then Audiopoint wrote,
"Kait states - “I can’t wait to see what you little monkeys will say next.”
Help me Geoff Kait, my house is shaking from “inaudible seismic activity” and disrupting the sound and quality of my hi-fi system and robbing me of musical quality...
NAH, JUST JOKING - Although my house does shake from sound pressure level with a percussion and rhythm section that sounds like a concert environment and I am experiencing the joy of listening to music. No Walkabout and headphones here - a real sound room, a live sounding system and larger than life stage with lots of attack, sustain and decay combined with lots of space and airiness in between."
Can you try to hold down the snarky comments and stick to the discussion? By the way, where is the seismologist who was supposed to save your bacon from the fire? You are not doing your company any favors by all of your ignorant and snarky carrying on. You actually have not addressed seismic vibration at all.
then Audiopoint wrote,
"There is something about a live concert, recording studio or listening to music in my home that makes me feel good. I need to feel the quiet of the room so one can hear the finger noise on the strings and neck during a cello solo. I require lots of air, depth of feel, attack, sustain and decays - you know that live experience of air moving along with the all important ‘physical body feel’ of emotion and participation. I would rather feel a kick drum in my chest compared to just hearing one in my ears but that is how I enjoy music and that is how we engineer our products to perform at Star Sound. To me, feeling the emotion is as important as hearing every note - they are one in the same."
Oh, brother! Can you please hold down the self serving blather?
Then Audiopoint wrote,
"Kait asks - “I realize I’ve probably asked you this question before but now that you’ve taken case of the vibrations produced by motors, transformers, etc. In the component and vibrations that might wind up there due to acoustic forces how did you address the seismic vibrations? It appears you’re ignoring them. Am I missing something?”
To which Audiopoint replied,
"We have always ignored them."
That’s pretty much what I surmised based on your previous comments and Tom’s.
Then Audiopoint wrote,
"The Great Kait cannot come up with any evidence whatsoever that inaudible seismic activity affects sound reproduction “in real time”. It takes equipment costing millions of dollars to “SHOW” seismic frequencies that are well below that of human hearing."
Oh, brother! Actually I have provided evidence, But you have consistently ignored it. Where’s that seismologist?
The final comment of Audiopoint I will address is,
"We never considered Earth’s crust motion or seismic forces to be part of our technology, research or approach to product development as we are focused on improving the ’audible’ musical instrument and recording/playback sciences."
Exactly!! That’s precisely why I have been saying yours is only a partial solution.
cheers
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Audiopoint wrote,
"The Great Kait cannot come up with any evidence whatsoever that inaudible seismic activity affects sound reproduction “in real time”. It takes equipment costing millions of dollars to “SHOW” seismic frequencies that are well below that of human hearing."
Uh, I’m pretty sure you cannot hear capacitors vibrate or the vibration produced on the electronics by acoustic waves in the room. Besides, seismic vibrations go up into frequencies that ARE audible. Not only that but ordinary vibrations, the ones you guys concern yourselves with are also inaudible and cannot be felt. Things like election tubes, transformed, capacitors, you cannot feel them vibrate. Hel-loo! So your argument is just plain silly on many levels. The very low frequency vibrations and the higher frequency ones produce distortions in wires, cables, printed circuit boards,,etc. THAT ARE AUDIBLE. Don’t be such a silly goose.
audiopoint also wrote,
"Ligo is an amazing system but does not relate to audio reproduction as the Audio and Recording Sciences relate to human hearing - we will provide a more detailed explanation forthcoming."
I’m on the edge of my seat. You guys keep saying that. Is this going to be someone who understands vibration isolation?
then Audiopoint wrote,
"I am a sound engineer - if I cannot hear it, we cannot improve or relate to it, so we put our money and research into improving what we can hear and what we do know."
I can certainly appreciate that you guys cannot relate to it. Most audiophiles can easily relate to it. I have no idea what your problem is. And from what I can tell you guys have not grasped a single thing I’ve said. Oh, well, C’est la vie.
cheerios
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theaudiotweak
1,399 posts
11-05-2016 6:10pm
Geoff everything touches the Earth and is along for the ride. I know of only one operational device that doesn’t and only Bill Gates can pay the cost of entry. Tom
Geez, I give up. Carry on. Smoke if ya got em. None are so blind as those who will not see.
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theaudiotweak
1,400 posts
11-05-2016 6:10pm
Geoff everything touches the Earth and is along for the ride. I know of only one operational device that doesn’t and only Bill Gates can pay the cost of entry. Tom
But the ride is a lot bumpier without isolation. You can ignore isolation and you will still have an incomplete solution. Even your methods for getting energy out of the system are incomplete. The cost of isolation is low once the light bulb comes on in your head. As I've said many effective iso devices for audiophiles have been around for more than twenty years, including many from yours truly.
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Audiopoint:
"Kait says - “That’s because the entire house is shaking due to the microseismic activity, traffic, etc. This is precisely why audiophiles found out a long time ago that all efforts to build a rigid, solid foundation for their gear are for naught compared to isolating the gear.”
to which audiopoint resoonded,
"We cannot hear or feel our houses shaking therefore have no idea as to the validity of microseismic activity wreaking havoc on our sound systems. Star Sound Platforms are rigid and so are the majority of racking designs sold in this Industry. The minority involves spring isolation. You were one of a couple manufacturing racks built on spring concepts so if your rack was that good, where is it now?"
Simply because you’re unable to feel or hear something doesn’t necessarily mean it doesn’t degrade the sound. Take RFI/EMI for example. Besides I doubt you can feel or hear the induced vibration your company addresses, you know capacitors, electron tubes, transformers, a wobbly spinning CD. In addition microseismic activity varies from location to location. In locations where microseismic activity is more pronounced you actually CAN feel the vibrations, in Las Vegas for example.
FYI - I never made racks. I have been making vibration isolation devices for more than 20 years. The majority of isolation devices actually do use springs, in one form or another. Ironic, huh?
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Audiopoint wrote,
"When a speaker is placed on springs, everything moves about and in situations depending on volume and room pressure level, speakers can also move counter to Earth’s rotation. Everything moves - the chassis, drivers, diaphragms and voice coils move freely - left to right and front to back.
Since everything is moving around how does one relate to or measure for driver time alignment?
If a speaker fires from different angles and/or locations while moving, does that affect driver dispersion patterns?
How do the internal moving parts of a loudspeaker function when subjected to constant flexing?
Speaker testing is usually done from a fixed foundation and position - not a moving plane, so how would spring movement affect the testing in anechoic or other studio environments?
if the iso system is properly designed any potential drawback will be outweighed by it’s advantages. Springs under (heavy) speakers - very stiff springs - would be extremely resistant to all motion except vertical motion due to their stiffness and that vertical motion would be very small in practice, again due to their stiffness. So you can ignore the motion using springs with speakers.
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More from Audiopoint:
Kait asks - “I realize I’ve probably asked you this question before but now that you’ve taken case of the vibrations produced by motors, transformers, etc. In the component and vibrations that might wind up there due to acoustic forces how did you address the seismic vibrations? It appears you’re ignoring them. Am I missing something?”
To which Audiopoint replied,
"We have always ignored them."
That’s the answer I expected. Do you also ignore RFI/EMI? Just curious.
The Great Kait cannot come up with any evidence whatsoever that inaudible seismic activity affects sound reproduction “in real time”. It takes equipment costing millions of dollars to “SHOW” seismic frequencies that are well below that of human hearing.
Huh? I have demonstrated how isolation improves the sound in real time as you say many times including with Mapleshade Recording Studios, Rockport/Tenor and John Curl at CES. It’s actually not that difficult to demonstrate the efficacy of vibration isolation. There are many examples of inexpensive isolation solutions for audio applications. You just have to understand the concept. The REQUIREMENTS for LIGO, as I’ve stated many times before, are far beyond high end audio requirements. I use LIGO as an example of me why Isolation is important, not as an example of what audiophiles need. Hel-loo! Audiophiles do not require MIL SPEC electronics, either.
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Audiopoint wrote,
"Analogy: Speakers fire frequencies through air much the same as weapons fire projectiles through air. I would rather fire a weapon from a solid fixed foundation compared to firing it from a moving spring foundation - greater accuracy - the same with speakers (IMO)."
Actually, most heavy artillery employs "recoil," which is essentially a spring. Otherwise the force of the initial blast would rip the artillery weapon from it’s base or in the case of small arms without recoil it would break a man’s arm. Nor is the path of acoustic waves ballistic. So, a weapon is not like speakers. They're not similar at all, actually. |
Audiopoint wrote,
"We never considered Earth’s crust motion or seismic forces to be part of our technology, research or approach to product development as we are focused on improving the ’audible’ musical instrument and recording/playback sciences."
That’s not my fault. You should consider everything. I considered everything. I think everybody should.
audiopoint also wrote,
"It would appear in order to provide you any concept of understanding related to our technical approach or why our products perform direct coupled to Earth without the negative effects from inaudible seismic interference would have to result in a product audition."
Im not criticizing your product or your approach. Other than to say that as far as vibration is concerned your approach is not complete.
then Audiopoint wrote,
"Keep to your seismic storyboarding as it delivers a simplistic concept, provides a level of believability and will attract an audience so you can retail your lengthy list of all the different little things you sell."
OK, snarky comments aside, getting back to reality for just a moment, I have also addressed the induced vibration and the acoustic produced vibration just as you claim to have. In fact, my techniques, just judging from your own word, are probably superior in that regard.
Then an audiopoint wrote,
" I have no doubt you will continue to stay on the seismic issues telling companies like ours that we are missing the boat and should go back to school only because Ligo and Kait says so."
Hey, I’m game if you are. I like this little game. I don’t tell anyone what to do. Now that you mention it school is a terrible idea. Remember, education is what’s left after you subtract out what you forgot from school.
Finally Audiopoint wrote,
"We do not listen to Ligo. We do not hear electron microscopes. We do not listen in anechoic environments and we certainly do not hear our houses shaking from seismic whatevers, so what exactly are we missing?
I never said we did. We don’t listen to Audio Points either. Follow? What are you missing? Give me a few days to think about it and I’ll get back to you.
have a nice day
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dlcockrum 452 posts 11-05-2016 7:23pm Hi Tom and Geoff, If you would be so kind, could you comment on measurements pdf within the link I posted above: http://www.solid-tech.net/products/discs-of-silence-4537455That appears to be what I would expect from a low pass filter. Effectiveness of isolation rises as frequency rises, e.g., 88% at 20 Hz, 97% at 150 Hz. No surprises there. Also, good performance in z direction and x-y plane. Nice! |
theaudiotweak
1,401 posts
11-06-2016 1:36pm
"Geoff,
Like a displaced spring on a '58 Edsel your storyboard has sagged with age."
Good one, Tom. You're on a roll.
"Furthermore let go your LIGO as it has nothing to do with anything you make."
Have to disagree there, Zippy. LIGO uses springs.
"As you almost stated above..take a few days to think about it and get back to us."
Give me a few days and I'll get back to you. I promise.
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Randy-11 wrote,
in reference to the PDF file on isolation device measurements,
"It could not be published in an engineering or scientific journal."
Even if you're correct and I'm not sure you are, you probably aren't, there was certainly no intention to publish the results in an engineering or scientific journal. Are you kidding? Do you really think this is some kind of peer review?
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