Do Dealers think it is sinful..........

Don't get me started! If you are lucky there are 3 high end dealers within reasonable driving area. And probably #1 is a dealer of the very high end (Wilson, Levinson) who is an arrogant, know-it-all, snooty upper crust jerk who says that everything sounds different but there is no need for a loaner piece for you to try out in your home or room. His stuff is so good it will sound the same at your place and don't bug him for discounts and there is a 20% "restocking" fee if you don't like the sound and bring something back, and by the way that thing you picked out is ok but not that great so come back when you want to spend some real money, oh and also by the way your taste in music sucks (you don't like classical) so why don't you go out and get some cerwin-vega speakers and receiver. Probably, #2 is a mid-to-high end dealer (adcom or NAD to CJ) and is ok to deal with, IF and only IF you buy some stuff and make him some money, then after you are ripped off the 1st time he will feel that it is now ok to treat you decently. Probably, #3 is a variation on #1 or #2. Thus, one or 2 lously dealers significantly limit your ability to get high end gear, since the third one probably doesn't have everything you want. I lived in 3 big cities, and found this to be the case. This is why I think internet shopping w/ a 30 day home trial is a great option (i.e. Magnepan (actually 60 days), PS Audio), rather than waste your time with some idiot with bad hearing who probably knows less than you and who provides no added value.
I for one do not have the time to suck up and be buddy-buddy with one of these guys just so I can get a good deal in 3 months when I need something else and hope the guy is still there to remember me, and I don't think it reasonable for the high end to expect me to do so. I also don't have time to sit around in a strange room with different equipment listening with strangers all day, and don't believe this reasonable either. I get my initial impression, take the thing home and try it out, if I like I keep, if not then not. To me this is reasonable. Less than 1/2 hour in the store wasting everyones time. I would prefer to get something over the internet or mail order with a good return policy just so I don't have to deal with dealers. Certainly there must be others like me who think the whole hi-end purchasing process is completely screwed up? I think what it comes down to is you must accept the fact that you can't buy what you really want. If you are down to 3 awesome preamps in the same price range you buy the one you get a deal on (saving $1000), not the one you like the most, which is a little better, but not so much better that you are willing to lose your dignity on the price. For you dealers out there- I am not really that bitter, I just think most dealers are lousy this fact is not made better by pointing out that some dealers are good, probably those who read the info on this site. - thanks for letting me participate in this discussion.

#1 sounds like our local Portland, Oregon Vandersteen dealer. Are you listening Richard V. ? My bad experience with this dealer when I was a serious 'new' buyer of Vandersteen 3a Signatures made me decide I would just buy/try on the internet. I am much happy with this choice because I now know about high end audio from experience. The money I lose buying used/selling used pales by comparison to what I would have lost in initial depreciation. I do call a few dealers when I am in the market for something specific and ask them if they have something used or on special. One interesting side effect of this is that I buy my audio supplies online too. Tubes, record cleaners, etc. I have to pay the shipping on the stuff, and it does sell for retail on the net which means I am actually spending MORE for it. I don't even know where the other retail dealers in Portland are located. ------------------------------------- I do think Notreally is being a little hard on dealers in general. It must be very frustrating to deal with 'true' audiophiles, so you must cut them some slack. On the topic of markup, I know that the Vandersteen 3aSignature sells for 2100 to the dealer who then sells it for 3500. Remember these audio dealers probably have 200K+ in capital sitting in their building plus the monthly lease and all. A function of this markup is the ongoing cost to sell ratio. There aren't too many businesses that are so capital intensive with such a tenous sell position. ----------------------- I wonder if the internet is helping or hurting dealers. It hurts them in that they don't have the 'captive' market they used to. A person can demo in their showrooms then search the whole country for that product. Their in-showroom used market profit is diminished as well. It helps them in that it removes many of the 'true' audiophiles from their showrooms. I have a feeling they make their real money from non-audiophiles. People who walk in and say "I've got 5K to spend, set me up".

Got news for you. There aren't many people who waltz into a hifi shop and drop 5K on a set of speakers.

Many dealers go out of their way to demonstrate and educate prospective customers with the hope that they will grace them with a sale.

If an "audiophile" demands a discount from a dealer, the dealer is likely to blow him off. Dealers are savvy to the behavior of the typical "audiophile stroker" and don't go out of their way to accommodate them. The dealer knows that after he has demoed the product and invested time answering questions, the stroker is just go buy it somewhere else for 2% less $.

FYI: Vandersteen's have a markup of 35%. That isn't much after you consider the cost of shipping, capital outlay to stock them, etc.

Hey Nostroke. So sorry.
Do you work for the CES ? The waltz part really hurt.

I was referring to an entire system for 5K. My Vandersteen price came from a local used high end dealer who has been in audio for 20 years or so. I'm a good customer to them.

This topic addresses the purchasing ethics of high end audio and the inquisitive nature of audiophiles as related to the internet and the hardship of running a high end audio dealership.

I theorize that most dealers are audiophiles and that ironically their most frustrating customers are probably just like them. The internet has affected high end audio forever. Customers are less captive. As a correlating point I state my own purchasing choices and patterns. Good dealers do provide experience and value for their services and deserve to be paid for this. Absolutely. I made a conscious choice to not use retail dealers and do my own legwork. Completely fair. I state my own bad experience to illustrate the abrupt motivation. I gather almost all of my information from magazines, forums, friends and actual ownership. The internet has made this possible. It's more interesting too.

This particular dealer was unprofessional and did not deserve my business. If that speaker was my choice, I would have purchased it new from him. Without a doubt.

Customers are right sometimes too.

Gents, there are very good dealers and very bad dealers. Some treat their customers like gold and some treat their customers like dirt. It is a shame when a few bad dealers tarnish the public's view of all dealers. I still think that if a dealer services you properly and takes a consultitive role in your purchase it is not ethical to threaten him with taking your business elsewhere if a sizeable discount is not offered.