DIY TT

Dear @vinylzone  : " I do not have any vibration or rumble issues in my setup, "

How do you know, how can you be so sure?

I ask because time ago I was sure that my analog rig was free of any kind of generated distortions related as what we are discussing here with you.

A few months ago my friend Carlos came to my place and we were listening MUSIC, mainly classic because he is a Simphonic Orchestra player. Obviously that he is accustomed to listen at high SPL as in a live even seated at near field. So in one LP ( non classic score but Asian drums. ) with SPL over 95db and with a low bass reproduction part the windows started to vibrate... after that I told you Carlos if that vibrations affected the other frequency ranges ( mid/high ) sk if he detected " something " and like me he told me that does not detected any kind of " problem " about.

I took that experience as a confirmation that my analog rig was safe of that kind of " events " but I took a road to eliminate those window vibrations and in that road I find out that even that my friend and I can't detected any proble at high SPL with a high resolution full frequency response ( at least 16hz to 50kh) system in reality was not totally safe.

Total isolation of the TT/toneam/cartridge is not an easy target even if the analog rig is in other room. It's common sense and can bre preoved using sciene/measures and you are tell us that have a total/perfect isolation.

Something very good or bad in your system that I don't know its items, I think you have the small Maggies, Herron or something similar and what we look in that picture of your analog rig.

I have no questions for me, I know the answers. You need to make to question  your self about.

R.

@lewm  , you always has a " but " and it's ok with me but then please your perfect solution about, we need your contribution for all we can learn.

R.

Dear @vinylzone  :  " I don't need that kind of isolation.  No structure borne vibrations make it to the plinth.  The sub floor is a cement slab.  "

Vibrations or resonances at microscopic levels has a direct influence in what the cartridge stylus can pick up due theat the cartridges are en extreme sensitive to any kind of " movement ".

Seems that your statement is mainly subjective and I think that you need to measure as @mijostyn posted, I' agree with him .

Several times with original stock TT/onearm designs we just can't be aware of those microscopic " distortions " because due to the resolution levels of the room/system we can't be aware of that or maybe because we don't yet know what to looking for but what you can be sure is that those " distortions " exist and modulates the kind of colorations you are listening in your system.

Of course you are satisfied with what you have and looking that you like the DYS kind of work making measurements of what you did could be interesting for you or maybe you just don't care about.

R.

This could be interesting for SOTA TT owners:

R.

@holmz  : Both are entry level items, SAEC had four other tonearms a top yours. In the early 80's the top of the line had retail price in Jpan of  108,000 Yens and ours 52K and the 308 48K Yens.

In the other side and if you own the Saphire ( you did not say it when posted. ) model maybe could be a good time to send to SOTA or at least ask if exist important up-dates between your unit and the today Saphire model and then keep the SOTA TT change that tonearm and build an external arm pod for your second tonearm and that's it.

In any case you will need ( if you don't have it yet ) a good after market platform  where the SOTA will seated isolated of vibrations/resonances and even that the Saphire has the vacuum hold down characteristic try to find out  " dead " weigth of 200-300grs as a TT clamp even that you could think is redundant it's not and helps.

R.

Dear @holmz  : " a low bid for a DQX, which was declined..."

Looks like you really did not want to buy it and is at a bargain price. No, problem fine with me.

Now, I understand that your SOTA is not the Saphire model or at least you don't stated that way.

Anyway and obviously is up to you. I can't understand why you want to go for a  TT:

"" which appears like it might be able to slide out and mount into a homemade base? ""

when today ( including SOTA. ) exist several TT/tonearms that can match your today needs and future LOMC cartridge.

Exist something that do'nt fulfill your way of thinking with today great TT/tonearms that impedes you go for it?

In the other side is weird that you don't make any comment in the most important and critical  " partner " of any cartridge: the tonearm. You own the entry level of knife bearing SAEC tonearm and if I were you and before the TT I change that saec for a way better tonearm specially for the LOMC cartridges.

Any one of us is a unique human been with our exclusive way to " see " things and I respect your " see " of the analog world.

I think you already have all options any one can ask for and for me I think that the " ball " is in your " court ". Tha's me, maybe other audiophiles can tink that you need more information so go a head.

R.

Dear @lewm ​@mijostyn  and friends : Any one of us must have the Townshend experiences it does not matteras which analog rig we have. After do it  our analog world could chage in the way we are accustom to. Try to look for the opportunity to do it.

Here in Agon the audiophile that I know owns for years and in reality has all the information about is @lohanimal  .

R.

Btw, @holmz  and if you decide to go with today full warranty TT/tonearm then add to look for Acoustic Signature and in wespecial way the Townshend unit that's is an exceptional TT/tonearm at really good price.

In the next link several audiophiles posted in a critical issue: tonearm damping or not. Obviously that the Townshend was in the whole dialogue. I don't know the budget you have about but I'm sure that so many todays very good options some of them will be inside that budget.

Now, the today TT/tonearm comes not only with full operation warranty but anything that could happens with the units you will have the service and support from the manufacturer. Could be an advantage.

R.

@holmz  : I posted information on vintage TTs only because you asked for that Denon 3000 but today TTs are very good designs, cmes with full warranty and you always can fabricate stand alone tonearm tower board for a second/third tonearm. Even some today design comes with the option of two arm boards where you don't need fabricate nothing at all.

You need to take a look to today units by: SME, Avid, OL, Kuzma, Reed, Sota, Clearaudio, Rega, Technics, SAT,  etc, etc. Try to visit its web sites.

So, today TTs are an excellent option too and in some way the better option.

Obviously it's up to you .

R.

Dear @holmz  : Fortunatelly you don't need to fabricate nothing. In the ebay TT link in the second photo you can see one tonearm board, that unit already comes with one arm board and in ebay you find out more arm boards for 12",10" or 9" tonearms. Here one of those M-S boards:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/393976742387?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110002%26algo%3DSPLICE.SOI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D237733%26meid%3D43c5d0661f904a6c8ddbcbcb6bc38375%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D393561597001%26itm%3D393976742387%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DPromotedSellersOtherItemsV2WithMLRv3%26brand%3DMicro+Seiki&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219&amdata=cksum%3A39397674238743c5d0661f904a6c8ddbcbcb6bc38375%7Cenc%3AAQAGAAACEPGiYQGK9r6BFR%252BsDJFfclQ8zcA1UrNzy5jCwHqMDALFRw5oaMCOpYhs3%252FlcWfc0FxAtTA2RK3lj0MgvVtc0p4bRjCatrdJBpSMRYzTSKs4mglOVL1gjI8clNPE%252FUoLdrIOfUpMlQshZnAon7W3F%252BIcIkHBQYiRSXriPrZ%252FL1HnJr4hhavOVKF53os%252B1aUXnMZOEPmA1WgO5ZcnKX19wI8NLC0zRoZ2QmCRYLO6%252BQaM%252BhjXnWkbGMFkmlrxKpH8rRVaGRA1vCQ34gWOAAHSPu6mNcxm4Jkiil8FfspIiyABJzlNN%252Fi5ByNrrx3m0Eacj6KB%252FsdVeNU%252F1GO8Y9nPP2qfr%252Fw8URG2dF%252BpE7UejLBPakHDwBQpmX4QjcelDedwXnfNAgRP%252Bav8xjsXhXj9kv563UoI4sLY7%252Fj1Bf1j7EY4%252Bwh77FzsIr4FBIO3iR4ZFODoJ4FJALX7cKAVXij1Ek3I6lZzULUw5N6Pwc%252FrH9OauEzvvgpuIPsB22WqvT9sEdOJrKztDnRLYAQ%252BQpiIzf18%252F0Ay4TJPRo9AleQnq9km42MY%252BjmSqulXc%252B%252BfAKDal3jYIBk3CkLFcHFx0i0HyvPd6yfT4YMsFsu89KUydn9qcjoosis7Oo%252BcyZRK7fBTwHAJWHK%252FhNvQMjqKTmp2X85%252FG3tGivzq0d%252FGDv3zYlOadMPxClbUDExkHNBvM%252FhM5ag%253D%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675&epid=847663933

In the other side here the SP10 specs:

Here the Toshiba 510:

 Ignorance is the " mother of all wars " and that Juergen just had no idea of the Technics units, especially the SP10s radio studio designs. . You can take a look to the difference in the platter weigth of each unit, way different. Technics is in a different league as the DP80 or the M-S DQX.

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/toshiba/sr-510c.shtml

R.

Dear @lewm : I don’t care what other people that I don’t know could tell about but I have first hand experiences with the M-S DD units and it’s not that way. You are only " speaking ". Good.

In the other side I have and owned the behemoth BD M-S and are bad performers but the SZ-1. Yes, very good looking but in reality are TTs over regarded. Only a first hand experiences with opinion.

Btw, @holmz , if you like the DQX alternative that auction ends in around 12 hours. Here read the flyer that have interesting information on this TT:

R.

Dear @holmz : Yes, you are rigth I need to understand your whole " scenario ".

The SOTA is a decent unit, Iowned the Star one paired with the ETtonearm tha was the fashion in those old days. Btw, I like that Garrot that’s better that we could think.

If I was you what I do will be to put on sale your today TT/tonearm and go for a really solid alternative that in some ways is even better than the Denon DP80 option and I’m refering to the Micro Seiki DD units where the one in the link is the MS top one that permits almost mount " all " the tonearms you want it and where you have to make nothing about plinth or any other modification . Well maybe a TT mat alond the Basis Audio clamp. In reference to tonearms I will go with today ones as Reed, OL or Kuzma and with the AT ART cartridge series but if you are biased for Hana then the Umami one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/393561597001?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item5ba2196449:g:tQcAAOSwah5hOc89&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAACoPYe5NmHp%252B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkPrKr5t53CooMSQt2orsSU8qUIAeVPdz29zRlje3LgxPcI04nprdpG8GsKrdqfjCEPmCJbgykNJZHl90RL%252BgTLtbIaX6exWL%252BNH5r9dKSzx25UP63dGjPXrAnRbbyb2To8t2BR%252FUJZa5bVzHn1bEHuabYMRhoLBWTgUSQJfsGwFEC8eLKktwVVwThqk1MsMHEm%252BU0jqUSoW%252FwGMl1UI2MEixwQr6PLAMGD8ON%252BhtyN%252FCls3%252FVKyVlcbd8J1zwuaLWyk1zgfqmb8Ii6ihesH48MNq8whQnV%252F3parKGjxuNVWHmy65yEA4XfbwY7a%252BwalRIx4cwcw2BU1eBdjfruxF%252FDWVapJ%252BtsG31rHQMbXG%252BuvSjZ3abyuwSqWk3Z8j91dldZCzYBGRelZ2RyBGT188c4AR5Pa0MKP570CiXcGDR0GSfChHLjPir1Ij0y5h7bV%252FlUNapFDCce5HYc3lbrfJoUwBeik9dhPFZXR9WnezoQygJWwPJ3uYr6V5saQgHgRZF%252Fh2yfgeCOScuSmH8ZM6oaQDnHCiEaByGQyLbP1ahTeF%252F3Mv9ZwbR6vLumta3ypBeKrTVnrCVG1hE3adWFDiW3LVWblZ3ojKZG97Q6sGOfIl5RjasgioFNmEPL%252BPjgsO83xBQQRwJMMRh8kr7rmwRoLBtzH8w120unqWYukdPpwR0OXDsMkq5F2TzVMZMAlqSLzY0Dfmk2C%252BhrYNgMvZ2nR%252FP9kZvhjdaNLpmPxq%252FKxR2wTjAJmW388pgoNxQn5R3NWsvMEzc6g0kG1vOv1nB4yCQP%252FNHza2oJvDOnpsLd5I7yOi1XSRHZtzPy%252BMwvn%252FZXd3tr3BV%252BBIEiRcnUVzik6YPV%252FEoPyXWlS5ZqqBdHA%253D%253D%7Cclp%3A2334524%7Ctkp%3ABFBMqIOL3PNf

Well, that's me.

R.

Dear @fsonicsmith  : There is no real contradiction. Over the time we learned in different audio subjects and I learned ( not because SAT but way before) that 12" tonearms in reality does not helps to the cartridge job, the 9"-10" tonearms can control in better way resonances/vibrations developed during play and that's why I sold almost all my 12" tonearms including the SAEC WE 8000 and the 506 even that these ones are really good looking " boys " but that double-knife bearing is not the best for LOMC cartridges and it's not my " voice " Dr. Sao Win that manufactured TT/tonearms/cartridges puts a warning in the operation manual of its LOMC cartridge ( truly good performer ) against the knife bearing with its LOMC cartridge, I owned that Win cartridge and time after sold it I really regret that decision.

The long arm wand in 12" arms develops higher resonances/vibrations/feedback than in shorter arms. Yes, the 12" arms performance are for some audiophiles a better quality and " rich " performance levels than the shorter but the true is that what those gentlemans as you like in the 12" are its higher distortons, nothing wrong with that and there is a " problem " with 12" tonearms and is in its cartridge/tonearm alignment parameters because when we make that cartridge/set up always exist the possibility that we made it 100%  accurated and the      tiny errors in the alignment set up in the overhang/offset angle/P2S and the like goes higher in a 12" tonearm than in a 10".

In theory the tracking distortionn in a 12" is lower than in a 10"-9" tonearm and we audiophiles always look that as an advantage but how much lower is that error in the 12"?

well the average distortion in a 12" is 0.31% and in a 9" is 0.38%. Maybe you can detect that distortion difference of 0.07% but certainly what you and any one can detect is the distortion between both tonearm groove after groove that is around at 0.0025% but that it's changing at each tracking groove. So in reality that distortion advantage in a 12" tonearms has no influence in what we listen and the disadvantages in the 12" certainly we can listen it.

But I have no problem with what you like it.

R.

In the other side and if you decide to go for the DP80 let the double platter in stock way, the main advantage of that double platter is to " kill " resonances. Again Denon knew what they designed.

Now, the best plith is no plinth and you can run the DP 80 in " naked " fashion with tonearms mounted in tower pods.

Btw, which TT/tonearm/cartridges do you own?

R.

@holmz : 

 " I’ve been looking at a few 12” arms.."

Even that you have several years in Agon and for your posts as this one seems to me that you are not very aware of what " happens " in the Analog Forum because the 12" issue was analised severakl tiems in several threads. Aniway, a 12" tonearm makes more harm than any real " help " to the cartridge works. Yes, the 12" arms looks really good but the cartridge quality performance normally is better through shorter tonearms than the 12" effective length. As larger the tonearm as slower bearing arm response to the cantilever/stylus tip tracking movements along that the inertia moment is higher and the 12" arm dynamic mass goes against the crtridge job but don't take my word  and read what the tonearms SAT designr says about and I want to tell you that I owned around 8 to 10 12" tonearms:

R.

Dear @holmz  :  " I did find a Luxman PD555..."

The 555 and the Toshiba 510 are both way inferior units against the Denon DP80/75 that outperforms it. The " atracttive " in the 555 is its vacuum hold down LP mechanism but you can have it in the Denons with after market devices.

In the other side and other than its excellent motors the double platter used is a characteristic that makes a difference for the better, Denon knew for sure the advantages of its overall TTs designs.

If I remember @lewm  mounted his Denon in a custom made plinth of slate and he was and is really satisfied with. He owns other great vintage TTs and owns a top audio system. As always with custom made plinths the critical issue is that be well damped for external and internal resonances/vibrations.

Anyway, you have options and if you like the 555 go a head it does not needs a custom plinth.

R.

Dear @holmz  : Try to find out the Denon DP80 or DP75:

https://www.ebay.es/itm/194880213872?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110018%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.COMPLISTINGS%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20210609144404%26meid%3De19c2886539c4055a6c52dff266ed338%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D393908452684%26itm%3D194880213872%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DItemStripV101HighAdFeeWithCompV3Ranker%26brand%3DDenon&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219&amdata=cksum%3A194880213872e19c2886539c4055a6c52dff266ed338%7Cenc%3AAQAGAAACAAgZ3WLsgqYRJ3RdEMYTcqk7y5BX0yH2AXffjfzIPEGy9Gz6VsRns3TdEHvYjtEs3%252FPSH8rstc3fqHHZiV1QMCvJRhkx6pVUExsGUWbCdA0ELCs78qINm4cYxCd3gaPeP69M2Sy%252BCX4q4qc057C%252Fv8vCaJzmaxWETNitW9BYZZqlvvNrxnmqV6kdIH%252Fce%252FMH3wc1KVHYGKEsSnZJFWbdlO14MrO2cMn9ycdkIgE8l%252BJi4n2mLW1J1LOSGQ6or5fANY6bFo%252Ffyjo2Rsrd3%252F%252FNHp7MZCLLu1aBYAJNkDw6QlfsZtLJqXPfUwxl4WkR%252BxLFgPwCHVhQ2X%252FzAJEixurmwqjr0rXR0LnOpd6nXmzlC2eDs6G4yaa7pL1RgVPfdV%252Fig3eqWW1rYOoY726cuo0n8LM22oRR3Jj119R%252FFGzzqkE8kadudyDah2ydunit1OGA3O3eXJP2hV5NErujGzKjL5SJsHYYn9ebiNnHNTrll1U8AZ7KYk2ANGwz6retFWO0SmcRXDx%252F12sUkyPqtTD8G1yo%252F28dIcQ1HNohWVgh1AR9IcwCSJy%252F2vBach2yaTTermjZJvU3b7IY61oqVHVVMtoaQX7CxD8hw3DUGCCxU90raOBuAgFa5spLHxheOV0DAIsq6WELYQsZst0QmgrrfGnvGSpaPBJ8FmvJukWNOS%252FG%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675&epid=7052551865

https://www.ebay.es/itm/154639052338?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110018%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.COMPLISTINGS%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20210609144404%26meid%3D4af35a6227c940bdb6901c596433280d%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D194880213872%26itm%3D154639052338%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DItemStripV101HighAdFeeWithCompV3Ranker%26brand%3DDenon&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219&amdata=cksum%3A1546390523384af35a6227c940bdb6901c596433280d%7Cenc%3AAQAGAAACAA2nKTgnDIbCv2nqOpCCz2gT3d6wltr8uz6HImur862OlVqF36ABR9AFtxjTQvA%252BLRbtsCA3aLnhWHhKqOR6egnZoW6kbn3Eo0YFC8Zf24k%252FHG7B7%252BaQu1oi5XExge%252BUCJRULQcj1XB4Z1Oyt8ok0aRfYvHmbLkJnQVP%252Bm0FM6nWxDXw%252FKa3NIHx5dBZaOwezBp0V2YdCxs9t2Ms8pTfOSyH%252FEk%252F1bRv8h2OV%252Bf3nkn0fRx4RrNwxp5Kfa3jXouLoqozFgsR5hwxdvBFm9v2JK3OebK%252FLLBzB9TMi0gryQTEeA22p9yQ3tQR90ptpkOGVfdvs3Tpt6ZASYEkuWqnmgSB%252FqiOf3qZWMTfluC3qBwyLchinUS4yZ%252BhqQus7G2qSASUPKzCskhCZsDvBJFOLi9BJW%252FI8WwQBx0I1SeNiT5hRTfiyknaqpwujr9VOfGERGgReJEyAR1a3eFix%252FjaVj63ifGPBNhBBw8LzIcaf4B%252BKGlkgGtE0nnAbKvhzralaN97OPzWz82ZuHgRlOloaT7hAkc%252FUVMi7fOZ18xoFj78vrucQ5gd%252F6sxVKyr7PjRaW5pYEig1nDcmWEF3%252FpeSX75vnRJyoNuvpHUXQBivxM2Rsr3ngx2T6e21USb7tPJcwZnk85orEjBF8OQAdPg%252BNybdh8NEqdZTdmcxDmg6F9d%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675&epid=1041781572

http://www.thevintageknob.org/denon-DP-80.html

Here the one you are asking for, the 80 is better:

https://www.ebay.es/itm/175128595364?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20201210111314%26meid%3D8e123eb9b0c641b693896250b21dded5%26pid%3D101195%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D353695425656%26itm%3D175128595364%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv9PairwiseWebMskuAspectsV202110NoVariantSeed%26brand%3DDenon&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum%3A1751285953648e123eb9b0c641b693896250b21dded5%7Cenc%3AAQAGAAACEAub2a2paAdP1EccaSuiNGAqotMp5JqVhq9vyfhjOj%252FPOMQqzO3VfYsgOah4PrqdTD6x9yUUjRqj4ufB%252B4FvEjjEwAT8M7JZaRQkmfoKMSFXAdKjy4iYFg%252Fhiaa1xjvcbAicBP%252FxyaolV3HVB3ihr5KW9TciTfwof%252BUiO4KuMb1XOnVIVQLrwmMaHdjtj6WydyQBP18IufThKGI5VFyXtCvAKbCADKpB7dbAqINNKSgYnEg53fYT8JhK7yc5T%252BLEByJzikHrHhBkL4b6%252FmY6Jxo1W644byexRGc%252F9MvpE2MS0kyfZg%252Fwn708%252FEkOAldVolaav0lq86Cuvg30l6YvSdaZXNrK16CyMdkgWxqki0wVzE%252BjSqETzyDJ%252B7r7Z%252BK89i4PyHA0cgC7Lty9ksYmLIOB8iLyQ1JoMjwWuY32ClGDSR1sz6mhpLCM4Ki5KClARuq1zRdCJQOUfeB4hbnOys0X7yOb6X0tJnRyhpkCWeA0JFqU05Axy8iUastl4SJo2SK5IP7eFg5ykTaWGMaIhOlfFPZ5KS8rnnGFdStPQmYf0gYhHxe2X8S1Em68P6uTnakV1l5ECYi%252BplOduQ82PMoXfIdpr8ZZnF18VP9otXIU4%252FkuddrbPz26juJQwyaXN%252F3DaPAqAYhxl%252BqNGWSuqXmOqSFhJ6zOosHRWEdQPsiMf1h85cJI0sOcd8X5byoWdg%253D%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.